Defecting from Plectrum to Fingers

[DaveMuadDib]

Ok guys, not only have I lined the pockets of Apple this month by buying an iPod, this month also marks my reluctant conversion from 5 years of plectrum bass to the dreaded fingerpick. Now let me get this straight: I LOVE plectrum bass. Rex Brown, Izzy Stradlin, Jason Newsted... all heros of mine who aren't afraid to pluck to their hearts content. And if it's good enough for dimebag, then it's good enough for me But I make this transition mainly because there are a great number of my heroes who DON'T use a pick all the time (Billy Gould, Cliff Burton, Tim Commerford to name but a few...) because it sounds more awesome and gives me greater versatility, because I'm sick of losing plectrums and being so generally dependent on the little buggers, because I would like to finally bite the bullet and learn how to slap, and so people will stop abusing me!

Anyways, motivations aside, what is the best way to go about this? I'm pretty adept with a pick, and am keen to gain Slayer/Metallica levels of speed with my fingers if at all possible. I have no use of my pinky finger (long story), but everything else is good. Should I be using all three fingers, mainly the index and forefinger, or three fingers and thumb? Should I alternate between all three/four digits or should i primarily be using two and throw in the others for effect? Any good learning exercises? At the moment I'm using Bullet in the Head and Higher Ground as a starting point.

Any advice and tips or similar experiences would be much appreciated!

-Dave

[Chris2112]

Two fingers works fine for me and it worked for Jaco too! I'm actually learning to use a pick again atm after years of playing fingerstyle!

[DaveMuadDib]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='538706' date='Jul 12 2009, 07:01 PM']Two fingers works fine for me and it worked for Jaco too! I'm actually learning to use a pick again atm after years of playing fingerstyle![/quote]

Jaco, of course, is amazing. And he only used two fingers?! Really??

Lol, I'm not going to throw away my picks, but it's good to have the option!

[MacDaddy]

whatever works for you. But 3 fingers gives you more versitility and if you can use your ring finger it's a shame to waste it

[xilddx]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='538742' date='Jul 12 2009, 07:40 PM']whatever works for you. But 3 fingers gives you more versitility and if you can use your ring finger it's a shame to waste it [/quote]

Very are though, you'll admit. I can do flamenco tremolo technique on a bass but what's the point 99.99% of the time?

If you are starting out from scratch, I would use two fingers strictly alternating, no rakes across strings. It really is more efficient and precise. I don't because I've been playing for years using raking and can't get out of the habit without risking messing up during gigs in the transition period. But hey, I ain't no Jaco. Raking is useful occasionally anyway and is a technique in its own right.

I would do it properly from the start, two fingers, strictly alternating.

Nice to meet a fellow Dune addict BTW.

Edited July 12, 2009 by silddx

[Bay Splayer]

use one finger

jamerson did

[Musicman20]

I have recently done the same. I am extremely fast with a pick....I always forget until someone asks me to play as fast as I can....

But...finger style is a different sound, I like it. Ive been practicing the same songs with my band but with fingers. Pros = you can have hgher input gain on amp... Cons = fingers ache still...but Im getting there.

Back pickup on Jazz with fingers (Jaco) = awesome.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Musicman20

[DaveMuadDib]

[quote name='silddx' post='538758' date='Jul 12 2009, 08:00 PM']I would do it properly from the start, two fingers, strictly alternating.[/quote]

This was my inclination! I think I'm just being a bit greedy by wanting to master raking right away. Although the speed would be awesome, I think it would most likely result in many of the same downfalls of the pick. Stuff like Raining Blood can remain pick-only tracks for the time being! Man, my fingertips are sore already, it's like starting again!

In regards to slap, any tips? My very much awesome hombre and fellow basschatter Gaf uses just his thumb for slap and middle finger for pop. Is this an advisable method, or should I be trying to throw in some index as well?

[quote]Nice to meet a fellow Dune addict BTW.[/quote]

Likewise! It's always good to know I'm not alone in my love for one of the most awesome works of fiction of all time! I'm currently contemplating starting a fifth read-through of the whole saga at the moment Not to mention, haven't seen the lynch movie in a while...

-Dave

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dave_MuadDib' post='538806' date='Jul 12 2009, 09:07 PM']This was my inclination! I think I'm just being a bit greedy by wanting to master raking right away. Although the speed would be awesome, I think it would most likely result in many of the same downfalls of the pick. Stuff like Raining Blood can remain pick-only tracks for the time being! Man, my fingertips are sore already, it's like starting again!

In regards to slap, any tips? My very much awesome hombre and fellow basschatter Gaf uses just his thumb for slap and middle finger for pop. Is this an advisable method, or should I be trying to throw in some index as well?



Likewise! It's always good to know I'm not alone in my love for one of the most awesome works of fiction of all time! I'm currently contemplating starting a fifth read-through of the whole saga at the moment Not to mention, haven't seen the lynch movie in a while...

-Dave[/quote]

Raking just felt natural to me but it is not as efficient in most situations I reckon, and probably not as clean.

Dune inspired me to do so many things! Truly awesome piece of work. I think I've read the first one 9 or 10 times but I've read the whole series 6 times. Folks get put off by the SF thing but it's really just a Jesus story. Not read much of the bible cos I'm agnostic, but it's pretty much a treatment of the messianic impulse through society, as the great man said (Herbert, not Jesus). Think I might start reading them again soon.

[51m0n]

Figerstyle is generally a 2 finger thing. I use 3, there are people on here going the whole nine yards and getting the Garrison technique down. That is about as fast as a bass can be played with fingers IMO, but it will take you months and months to get down.

I rake, I think its more efficient (just to annoy silddx of course ) but its a horses for courses thing. It probably isnt quite as tidy as strict alternation though.

I would recommend using two fingers for popping (index & middle) since that will lead you on to being able to pop double stops and get triplets going too. Works for me.

People starting slapping have the most trouble just getting a note to ring properly with the thumb.

Points to note:-

1) Your thumb should be like a piano hammer - fast and [b]light[/b], bouncing immediately off the string
2) It should strike the string with the thumb knuckle over the last fret, the string needs to bounce of the fret to get hat slap tone.
3) make a fist, stick out your index finger and thumb (keep thumb relaxed) rotate your forearm back and forth such that your index finger is the axis, your thumb should be flying around, that is essentially the correct 'action' for slapping. Index finger needn't remain pointing, but that rotation of the wrist/forearm is key
4) Yes its tricky, it will take practice

Good luck!

[Mr Fudge]

Welcome to the world of bass guitar ...

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='539014' date='Jul 12 2009, 11:58 PM']I rake, I think its more efficient (just to annoy silddx of course ) but its a horses for courses thing.[/quote]


Flamencos favour strict alternation for speed and accuracy. If you listen to people like Juan Martín, Paco de Lucia, Ramon Montoya, et al, you'll hear why. They play picardo runs at blistering speed with complete accuracy and are able to execute accents and dynamics with ease at these speeds, were talking 32nd notes here. This is just as applicable to the bass guitar. Like I said, I rake, can't help it now. Actually there's a piece in this month's Bass Guitar Magazine about these two techniques and where they are appropriate. Must read it some time

[thisnameistaken]

TBH when you play bass beyond a certain speed it just sounds like a series of clicking noises, useful if you want to play trade shows or mate with a few species of insect but not for anything else.

If you do have a talent for playing insanely quickly and accurately, have a band or (more likely) a sponsor that actually wants you to do it, and you find that two fingers can't keep up with how awesome you are, then learn to pick with more.

[Josh]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='539037' date='Jul 13 2009, 01:01 AM']TBH when you play bass beyond a certain speed it just sounds like a series of clicking noises, useful if you want to play trade shows or mate with a few species of insect but not for anything else.[/quote]

+1

I've never heard any displays of using 3 fingers that have ever sounded as clean or controlled as something done by 2 fingers.

My advice would be to start out with 2 and stick to it if it keeps you happy, only consider 3 fingers if your seriously concerned with more speed.

[velvetkevorkian]

Conversely, if you want to play Raining Blood with fingers I would say go 3 fingers- it will take a bit longer to get it accurate but for metal it works IMO and IME.

[james_guitar]

I've been playing and teaching classical/flamenco guitar for most of my life, so have found using extra fingers essential to be able to achieve effective tremelo and Paco De Lucia/Vicente Amigo speeds. However, for me using extra fingers on the bass doesn't sound as consistant as using two. It's a bit like how a downstoke with a plectrum will 99 percent of the time sound slightly different to an upstroke (hence why guitarists like James Hetfield will pick insanely fast riffs with purely palm muted downstrokes for a more consistant sound).

I used to use three fingers for galloping Steve Harris style bass lines (like Lights Out by UFO), but I can also play it with two and think it sounds slightly better, so why not? It should also be easier for you to go from using alternate picking with a plectrum to alternating between your index and middle fingers. Alternatively, you can do the Sting thing and keep your wrist near the bring and use your thumb to pluck downwards and your index or middle finger to pluck upwards - it makes playing octaves/intervallic melodies a lot easier and allows you to palm mute.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='539044' date='Jul 13 2009, 01:20 AM']Conversely, if you want to play Raining Blood with fingers I would say go 3 fingers- it will take a bit longer to get it accurate but for metal it works IMO and IME.[/quote]

That is pretty fast (I'd never heard it before, just looked it up). Personally I'd probably get tired after a couple of minutes but I'd pick it with two fingers. I don't really play stuff like that, I'd probably be OK if I did.

I remember when I was a teenager I got called by a metal guitarist friend of mine whose bassist had just recorded a "galloping"-type bass part like that picking with three fingers but it was terribly sloppy, so he had me come down and re-record it while his bassist wasn't there (I probably picked alternate index/ring fingers - my middle finger is really long so that's what I usually do).

I suppose that's why I was suggesting learn to pick cleanly and articulately with two fingers first. While a part like that sort-of makes sense to pick with three fingers I think it would be difficult to make it sound as good as picking it with two.

Edited July 13, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[ZMech]

[quote name='silddx' post='538884' date='Jul 12 2009, 10:13 PM']Dune inspired me to do so many things! Truly awesome piece of work. I think I've read the first one 9 or 10 times but I've read the whole series 6 times.[/quote]
I read the first book recently and thought it was absolutely brilliant, but i've been told the others are dissapointing in comparison, are they worth reading?

Oh yeah, and if you want a real slap challenge, try learn to double thumb!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Zach' post='539094' date='Jul 13 2009, 08:46 AM']I read the first book recently and thought it was absolutely brilliant, but i've been told the others are dissapointing in comparison, are they worth reading?[/quote]
They are most certainly worth reading. They get progressively more serious and aren't the rollercoaster ride the first one is. They focus more on philisophical, political and religious themes but are no less entertaining, to me anyway. I keep hearing God Emperor is boring, but I think it's brilliant. They all are.

Anyway. Back to fingers.

Try this flamenco tremolo pattern on any single string. It will take a while to get the muscle memory but you will find after a week of being really slow, you'll very suddenly be able to play it really quickly.

With the picking hand fingers, play in this order, [b]T 1 3 2 1[/b]

[51m0n]

[quote name='Josh' post='539039' date='Jul 13 2009, 01:11 AM']+1

I've never heard any displays of using 3 fingers that have ever sounded as clean or controlled as something done by 2 fingers.

My advice would be to start out with 2 and stick to it if it keeps you happy, only consider 3 fingers if your seriously concerned with more speed.[/quote]

Violent and Funky - The Infectious Grooves

Granted its a triplet feel, but I defy anyone to play that song with two fingers and think its easier than three. Not just once round the groove, the whole song....

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='539135' date='Jul 13 2009, 10:00 AM']They are most certainly worth reading. They get progressively more serious and aren't the rollercoaster ride the first one is. They focus more on philisophical, political and[/quote]

God Emperor is my favourite one!

Its certainly not boring (well it wasnt for me)....

Most of the detractors seem to be aiming more at the books not written by Frank H, but his son. The Butlerian Jihad is a perfectly good SF read, its not the masterpiece that Dune was, but it does give the beginnings of a story arch not really touched upon in Dune that spans tens of thousands of years, and that is pretty cool IMO.

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='539143' date='Jul 13 2009, 10:09 AM']God Emperor is my favourite one!

Its certainly not boring (well it wasnt for me)....

Most of the detractors seem to be aiming more at the books not written by Frank H, but his son. The Butlerian Jihad is a perfectly good SF read, its not the masterpiece that Dune was, but it does give the beginnings of a story arch not really touched upon in Dune that spans tens of thousands of years, and that is pretty cool IMO.[/quote]

I tried to read two of those prequels, I felt almost angry reading them, the guy writes like a solicitor.

[Wil]

I loved the prequels, but they were a totally different approach. More giant robots with human brains, less subtlety. They did get a bit contrived with the Tio Holtzman and Norma Cenva story arcs too.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='538775' date='Jul 12 2009, 08:36 PM']I have recently done the same. I am extremely fast with a pick....I always forget until someone asks me to play as fast as I can....

But...finger style is a different sound, I like it. Ive been practicing the same songs with my band but with fingers. Pros = you can have hgher input gain on amp... Cons = fingers ache still...but Im getting there.[/quote]

Same here.
Ive been playing with a pick since i switched form guitar years ago.

Over the last few years ive been trying to get away from the pick as i'd like to have that the finger tone a bit more.
I always practice sitting down at home at the PC and i never use a pick. I can play at an ok speed but nowhere near how i can play with a pick.
I do find though, maybe because of the speed drop, that i play more rhythmically, and that's a good thing most of the time. Less notes but make them count more.
But when i get to the gig its pick most of the time still. I do play a few slow songs without a pcik but i always go back to it.
Ive tried having the bass at the same height as i do when sitting but i find that's to high to feel comfortable on my body. My fingers just seem to lock up.
Im not giving up but i am finding it very hard to not keep reaching for a pick. I even went to one gig without any picks, just to forage myself to try harder and while i did most of the gig without i ended up borrowing one by the end of the night.

[Josh]

[quote name='51m0n' post='539141' date='Jul 13 2009, 10:05 AM']Violent and Funky - The Infectious Grooves

Granted its a triplet feel, but I defy anyone to play that song with two fingers and think its easier than three. Not just once round the groove, the whole song....[/quote]

Fair enough, but I couldn't enjoy because it just sounds to harsh and messy, well it is Crab-Monkey after all. But indeed your right 3 fingers would be required.