excercises for learning scales??

[FuNkShUi]

Right, i understand all the scales, and all the modes. I remember all the shapes etc...but i really dont enjoy just sittin there and working through the scales/modes/shapes systematically to be able to remember them all without a kind of "cheat sheet". I get bored, and when i get bored, i dont learn as well! At the moment i have got all the shapes down for a few notes, but i would like to be able to them down for all notes, without having to refer back to "cheat sheets". Does anybody know of any useful books, or excercises that can be useful for getting the scales/modes/shapes to stick in my sieve like brain!?
i hope this makes sense

Edited July 15, 2009 by FuNkShUi

[rslaing]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' post='541038' date='Jul 15 2009, 10:11 AM']Right, i understand all the scales, and all the modes. I remember all the shapes etc...but i really dont enjoy just sittin there and working through the scales/modes/shapes systematically to be able to remember them all without a kind of "cheat sheet". I get bored, and when i get bored, i dont learn as well! At the moment i have got all the shapes down for a few notes, but i would like to be able to them down for all notes, without having to refer back to "cheat sheets". Does anybody know of any useful books, or excercises that can be useful for getting the scales/modes/shapes to stick in my sieve like brain!?
i hope this makes sense [/quote]

DON'T play them on your bass until you have mentally practised them. By using your imagination, they will stick in your brain.

Close your eyes, envisage playing the scales/modes on your bass in your mind all the way up and down your fingerboard and at the same time say the note you are playing. Play triads on each note of the scale both physically and mentally. This is REALLY hard to do quickly at first but you will get better and it is very worthwhile.

It sounds like until now, you have learned "shapes" on your bass. Thinking of a shape to play instead of notes is not musical - it is a very mechanical approach and as a result you will sound "mechanical" when you play.

IMO, shapes are a bad thing, and prevent progress because when playing, you are not thinking of or learning the notes.

When you physically play the modes etc, try to sing the notes you are playing at the same time or slightly before you sound the note. This helps to develop your ability to transfer the notes in your mind to your hand and trains your ear pretty quickly. It also gets the "sound" of the mode/scale/interval into your head.

I'm afraid there are no shortcuts

[sdgrsr400]

It's worth adding lots of rhythmic variety to scales, i.e. not to play them just as steady quavers. Use dotted notes (swung and straight), repeated notes, legato/staccato, in various combinations to make it musical. Being creative like this helps to avoid the boredom you mention, and sets you up to use scales in real playing.

Edited July 15, 2009 by sdgrsr400

[FuNkShUi]

i was afraid there was no short cuts

I appreciate what your saying though, but i think i have explained what i meant badly. i wrote "shapes" because i didnt know if everyone would understand what i meant if i just said modes (im unaware what other people know).

i completely agree with what your saying that i need to learn it musically so that it isnt so mechanic sounding (just playing "predesigned shapes"), and playing at different tempos, to different time signatures etc, but does anyone know of any good books that might be helpful?

i just feel like by having something to "achieve" (working through a book), i might enjoy the whole thing a bit more

Edited July 15, 2009 by FuNkShUi

[wulf]

An exercise (which you'll find in a lot of books) is to play scales using intervals. You play each note but between them add in a particular number of steps above. For example, rather than playing C D E F G A B C, you could play it with thirds: C E D F E G F A G B C (and then in reverse coming down). It improves your finger dexterity and gives you a good feeling for the sound of the available intervals. With that example, you will be playing a combination of major and minor thirds.

Wulf

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='wulf' post='541288' date='Jul 15 2009, 01:42 PM']An exercise (which you'll find in a lot of books) is to play scales using intervals. You play each note but between them add in a particular number of steps above. For example, rather than playing C D E F G A B C, you could play it with thirds: C E D F E G F A G B C (and then in reverse coming down). It improves your finger dexterity and gives you a good feeling for the sound of the available intervals. With that example, you will be playing a combination of major and minor thirds.

Wulf[/quote]
like that! thanks

[Doddy]

Have you just learned the 'shapes' or do you understand how the scales and modes 'work'?
Try moving them over the fingerboard using different positions and fingerings rather than sticking to one 'shape'-this is so much easier if
you know the notes involved. Once you can do that fluidly,try expanding them over two octaves. After a while you will become comfortable playing
over the whole instrument rather than being hindered by using well rehearsed 'shapes'.

[chris_b]

Have a look at Adam Nitti's lessons. [url="http://www.adamnitti.com/lessons.shtml"]http://www.adamnitti.com/lessons.shtml[/url]

[Major-Minor]

A nice little variation to Wulfs suggestion is this:
CEFDEGAFGBCABDEC
Play it all in one position starting on the E string ie 2nd finger on C at the 8th fret.
Then do it backwards
ECBDCAGBAFEGFDCE


And I have to contradict RLaings opinion on shapes (sorry Rob !). I think shapes are very important and help to give clarity to one's view of the fingerboard.
Jaco used to think in triads all the time, and if its good enough for him .......

The Major

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='chris_b' post='541383' date='Jul 15 2009, 03:56 PM']Have a look at Adam Nitti's lessons. [url="http://www.adamnitti.com/lessons.shtml"]http://www.adamnitti.com/lessons.shtml[/url][/quote]

nice link! lots of helpful stuff here. thanks!

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='541616' date='Jul 15 2009, 09:02 PM']Jaco used to think in triads all the time, and if its good enough for him .......

The Major[/quote]

cant argue with that

again though, thanks. The more different excercises i have, the less likely i am to get bored with them i guess.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='Doddy' post='541329' date='Jul 15 2009, 02:34 PM']Have you just learned the 'shapes' or do you understand how the scales and modes 'work'?
Try moving them over the fingerboard using different positions and fingerings rather than sticking to one 'shape'-this is so much easier if
you know the notes involved. Once you can do that fluidly,try expanding them over two octaves. After a while you will become comfortable playing
over the whole instrument rather than being hindered by using well rehearsed 'shapes'.[/quote]

yeh i do understand why the modes are the way they are, and what notes make up different modes. i just wanted some excercises, that will help reinforce these notes in my head. So that i can remember them all, all the time, without having to refer back, like i sometimes have to do now. Thanks though, definitly agree that you need to understand what your doing rather than just learn it and be able to spew it out parrot fashion!

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='541616' date='Jul 15 2009, 09:02 PM']And I have to contradict RLaings opinion on shapes (sorry Rob !). I think shapes are very important and help to give clarity to one's view of the fingerboard.
Jaco used to think in triads all the time, and if its good enough for him .......

The Major[/quote]


Feel free to contradict!! My turn now

My point was that it was BECAUSE (and it is common with bass players and especially guitarists) FunkSHui has learned his scales and modes in what appears to be primarily based on the shape method, that he has the difficulties he mentioned. Namely, not having the recall beyond the visual aspect. I firmly believe that the best way to learn scales and modes practically is as I suggested in my post.

Double bass players don't learn in "shapes" normally.? I didn't anyway, so why should it be any different on a bass guitar? And I think that the shortcut of playing via "shapes" can become a bad habit and results in a deficiency in the visual/auditory/kinetic learning process being developed to it's full capability. The knowledge of the fretboard/fingerboard can also be limited unless a student integrates all three V.A.K. aspects when developing their skills.

I had a pupil once who reckoned the shape method was best because as a bass player he didn't really have to go over the 5th fret, and once he had learned the 5 main shapes, he could get a gig anywhere He insisted on adhering to his belief, but when I explained that each shape had to be learned in 3 different ways (because of the root, 1st, 2nd and sometimes a third inversion of the arpeggio for starters) he started to realise there were no short cuts for him either. So a lot of progress is down to the motivation of the student, allied to the way he/she practices.

Re: Pastorius. Jaco primarily associated his playing with sounds and "colors" I believe. His brother Gregory did an interview a while back when he disclosed Jaco's skills were honed by his 6 hours a day practising patterns based on each mode and scale in all keys. As you mentioned, perhaps Jaco did think in triads, but that doesn't mean a shape. After all, there are a number of shapes on the fingerboard that can be created to represent a triad, then you have the different inversions - isn't it easier just to learn the notes?

Patterns = good I don't mean patterns on the fretboard........I mean triadic/quad/etc patterns and arpeggios developed from each scalar note of the modes and chords.

Shapes = not so good

Just my opinion of course.

Now I'll crawl back to my sick bed (man flu - not swine) and I'm afraid the weekly lesson part 3 might not be out until next week.

Edited July 16, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='542253' date='Jul 16 2009, 02:15 PM']My point was that it was BECAUSE (and it is common with bass players and especially guitarists) FunkSHui has learned his scales and modes in what appears to be primarily based on the shape method, that he has the difficulties he mentioned. Namely, not having the recall beyond the visual aspect. I firmly believe that the best way to learn scales and modes practically is as I suggested in my post.

Double bass players don't learn in "shapes" normally.? I didn't anyway, so why should it be any different on a bass guitar? And I think that the shortcut of playing via "shapes" can become a bad habit and results in a deficiency in the visual/auditory/kinetic learning process being developed to it's full capability. The knowledge of the fretboard/fingerboard can also be limited unless a student integrates all three V.A.K. aspects when developing their skills.

I had a pupil once who reckoned the shape method was best because as a bass player he didn't really have to go over the 5th fret, and once he had learned the 5 main shapes, he could get a gig anywhere He insisted on adhering to his belief, but when I explained that each shape had to be learned in 3 different ways (because of the root, 1st, 2nd and sometimes a third inversion of the arpeggio for starters) he started to realise there were no short cuts for him either. So a lot of progress is down to the motivation of the student, allied to the way he/she practices.

Re: Pastorius. Jaco primarily associated his playing with sounds and "colors" I believe. His brother Gregory did an interview a while back when he disclosed Jaco's skills were honed by his 6 hours a day practising patterns based on each mode and scale in all keys. As you mentioned, perhaps Jaco did think in triads, but that doesn't mean a shape. After all, there are a number of shapes on the fingerboard that can be created to represent a triad, then you have the different inversions - isn't it easier just to learn the notes?

Patterns = good I don't mean patterns on the fretboard........I mean triadic/quad/etc patterns and arpeggios developed from each scalar note of the modes and chords.

Shapes = not so good

Just my opinion of course.

Now I'll crawl back to my sick bed (man flu - not swine) and I'm afraid the weekly lesson part 3 might not be out until next week.[/quote]
Hi Rob - sorry to hear you are unwell. Hope you get better soon!

Re: Shapes
I suspect as usual we actually agree more than disagree. It all down to the usage of the word.

I remember when I was first getting to grips with BG (I was already an accomplished DB player) that the penny dropped one day when I realised I could play a major (and minor) scale all in one position - say for instance the F major scale starting on 8th fret on the A string with 2nd finger. To me, that scale has a "shape", and within that shape are many others - the triads for instance or the major 7 arpeg, major 6 arpeg etc etc.

These shapes are different to the way I view my DB fingerboard - same notes but differing finger patterns and shifts.
DB players think in shapes of course - smaller "cells" maybe - but shapes all the same.
Take for instance the following 4 notes ascending: E G B D (Eminor 7)
If the DB player uses 4th finger on E (A string), the G is 1st finger (D string) - this is the first cell.
Then shift to B 4th finger (D string) D 1st finger (G string) - the second cell.
To me this has a shape. I can see it in my head - its as clear as could be.

Whenever I sight read a new symphony or big band chart, I always "see" the notes as intervals under my fingers, trying to spot where the notes will lie the easiest under my fingers. Sometimes it will be 3rd time through before I finally decide on the best fingering. But always I'm trying to see the note shapes of the music as it goes along.

Same with improvisation. The shapes of an arpeg give me a starting point. Afterall, we only have 4 fingers and we need to travel around that fingerboard to find the notes we want - therefore I have always tried to "see" the f'board as a series of shape possibilities.

Now of course this whole idea is only a starting point. If a new player doesn't have the creative spirit, they are not going to get beyond this.

I practice scales all the time - but you wouldn't recognise them as beginner scales because I break them down, arpeggiate them, try to find new patterns etc etc. But then I am an experienced player of many types of music and I know what I'm looking for. A new player has to get as much guidance as possible. And I've always found that my pupils move ahead quickly once they can see the basic shapes on which to build a firm foundation.

Scales / Modes /Patterns /Shapes - we could debate these things endlessly - but they are only ever a starting point to creativity. And I am assuming that most readers of these posts want to be creative ! Otherwise why play music ?

The Major

[XB26354]

I think the visual element should not be ignored.
If you fret any given note, and you have a) a string above the current string and at least one fret behind the one you are playing, then up a string and back a fret will always be a major third. On piano a major third can be two white keys, two black keys, a white key and a black key or a black key and a white key!
Rather than just one shape learn all the possible combinations of shape (or harmony in a given position and how it links to other positions). Learning shapes gives us the muscle memory to play them quicker too. Of course the actual note names are important, but complete knowledge is what you know + what you can see + what you feel when you play + what you hear.

[FuNkShUi]

cheers for all the advice. all much appreciated. I think i will try and undestand all the notes and modes more fully, because i agree, then i should be able to work out what i can, without having to remember specific shapes. Can only benefit my playing i guess!