bazz fuzz

[Musky]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='547239' date='Jul 22 2009, 05:05 AM']Well... I think if you want to clone a Mammoth for yourself, nobody's going to know are they? But making money out of cloning it for other people is poor form.

You can say "It's a Fuzz Face" all day, but a fuzz face doesn't have four knobs. Why aren't you producing a two-knob fuzz if you're just using the Fuzz Face circuit? Because you're not, you're cloning a ZVex pedal.

Nobody here who's producing Woolly Mammoth clones would be doing it if the Woolly Mammoth didn't exist, clearly. So saying it's based on a Fuzz Face fuzz doesn't make reproducing the Mammoth OK. IMHO.[/quote]

Electrically, it is a fuzz face. Not an exact clone, granted, but nevertheless it uses the fuzz face circuit just as much as the dozens of other pedals that use it.

But I agree with what you're saying about the interest in the circuit for use with bass being down to the Mammoth. It's got a near legendary reputation ( with near legendary prices - is now the time to mention [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_goods"]veblen goods[/url] again?). Zvex are in the enviable position of charging as much as they do because of Zak's reputation for innovation, build quality and unique cosmetics. The pedals come with kudos and a resale value to match. And that's is why I think it would be wrong for anyone to attempt trading off that reputation

That doesn't mean that others can't play about with a circuit in the public domain though - just call it something totally unrelated to Zvex. Al's adding a blend to his and for all we know may experiment with the odd component value, just as Zak has done.

And Al, I don't think you're remotely morally corrupt.

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='Musky' post='547392' date='Jul 22 2009, 10:44 AM']Al, I don't think you're remotely morally corrupt. [/quote]Thanks for the support!
[quote name='steve' post='547272' date='Jul 22 2009, 08:10 AM']Did you try the blend circuit Al?[/quote]Not yet - waiting for a couple of components and a 50k linear pot, should be wiring it up tonite, will report back.
[quote name='alexharvay' post='547381' date='Jul 22 2009, 10:31 AM']I'd love to build my own pedal to learn a bit more about electronics. Can anyone point me in the right direction of online resources?[/quote]
Best place I can recommend is DIYstompboxes dot com and General Guitar Gadgets, these sites are a wealth of info on effects pedals, techniques, supplies, theory and contain active forums where you can ask like minded geeks who are keen to help assimilate you into their world.
Check out Beavis Audio Research as well - great site with some interesting projects [url="http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/"]http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/[/url]

Edited July 22, 2009 by Al Heeley

[steve]

another really good site is freestompboxes.org

[nick]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='547239' date='Jul 22 2009, 05:05 AM']Well... I think if you want to clone a Mammoth for yourself, nobody's going to know are they? But making money out of cloning it for other people is poor form.[/quote]
From all the posts in this thread, it's pretty evident that no one here is cloning pedals for profit. With all due respect, I think what you're saying in the context of is this thread is not relevant & universally agreed upon.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='547239' date='Jul 22 2009, 05:05 AM']You can say "It's a Fuzz Face" all day, but a fuzz face doesn't have four knobs. Why aren't you producing a two-knob fuzz if you're just using the Fuzz Face circuit? Because you're not, you're cloning a ZVex pedal.[/quote]
Ive cloned a Zvex pedal, a Fuzz Face,... and will do pretty much anything else I fancy, so long as it's cost effective; because I can

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='547239' date='Jul 22 2009, 05:05 AM']Nobody here who's producing Woolly Mammoth clones would be doing it if the Woolly Mammoth didn't exist, clearly. So saying it's based on a Fuzz Face fuzz doesn't make reproducing the Mammoth OK. IMHO.[/quote]
True, but I don't think anybody's really using 'derivative of Fuzz Face' as a justification to build a Woolly Mammoth. Think we all just want to see if it lives up to the hype.

Oh and BTW, Al you're not morally corrupt, at least no more than a lot of us.
Possibly some may be a little peeved at not being able to do it themselves(?)
Afterall £200+ as opposed to to about £15 is lot of wonga

Edited July 22, 2009 by nick

[Al Heeley]

This thing's starting to evolve now. I'll call it the Fozzy Bear until I hear from Jim Henson's legal team for infringement of copyright;)

This is as yet untested on the mods front, but the plan is to add the blend pot oin the right to blend the wet and dry signal together in an attempt to moderate the massive animal fuzz this kicks out.
then theres a dpdt switch on the left which will give a little voltage sag and reduce the drive power for some nasty chainsawness. On the right is a 3pdt switch which will allow 2 different output cap values for some extra Phat tone.
You will see from the extensive custom graphics i have emulated that "decorated by a 10 year old" feel of the original Zvex boutique pedals but adopted a more post-renaissance feel to the art-deco felt pen work, altogether more contemporary and yet strangely tasteless.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Al Heeley

[iamapirate]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='547239' date='Jul 22 2009, 05:05 AM']Well... I think if you want to clone a Mammoth for yourself, nobody's going to know are they? But making money out of cloning it for other people is poor form.

You can say "It's a Fuzz Face" all day, but a fuzz face doesn't have four knobs. Why aren't you producing a two-knob fuzz if you're just using the Fuzz Face circuit? Because you're not, you're cloning a ZVex pedal.

Nobody here who's producing Woolly Mammoth clones would be doing it if the Woolly Mammoth didn't exist, clearly. So saying it's based on a Fuzz Face fuzz doesn't make reproducing the Mammoth OK. IMHO.[/quote]
Just to get this out in the clear

[size=5]He is not making any money out of this[/size]
So why do people still think this is wrong?

[nick]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='548276' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:40 PM']
You will see from the extensive custom graphics i have emulated that "decorated by a 10 year old" feel of the original Zvex boutique pedals but adopted a more post-renaissance feel to the art-deco felt pen work, altogether more contemporary and yet strangely tasteless.[/quote]

Like it Al, you should copyright that design.
Those garish finger daubed finishes done by a primary school art class that other manufacturers do are [i]so[/i] 'yesterday'

Edited July 22, 2009 by nick

[Al Heeley]

Nope he ain't. (making any money that is...) The above one is my own personal test kit version to play around with R & C values.
This thread has sparked off a lot of interesting debate though - far more than I imagined!

Edited July 22, 2009 by Al Heeley

[nick]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='548321' date='Jul 22 2009, 10:15 PM']Nope he ain't. (making any money that is...) The above one is my own personal test kit version to play around with R & C values.
This thread has sparked off a lot of interesting debate though - far more than I imagined![/quote]

Thinking away from actual pedal cloning....
Lets say someone saw (for the sake of argument) a lovely ornate handmade table in one of those posh shops for a ridiculous sum of money, and wanted it for their house.

If the person had the required carpentry skills, cheap materials & the ability to make one in a small amount of time - I think most people wouldn't be surprised if the carpenter made one for himself, regardless of whether or not he could afford the expensive table in the shop.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='548279' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:43 PM']Just to get this out in the clear

[size=5]He is not making any money out of this[/size]
So why do people still think this is wrong?[/quote]

I don't know, it's a difficult topic. I sort-of know Al off other bits of the internets and I know he's a good guy, I'm not trying to paint anybody as a crook.

Thing is though, if - for example - I bought one of Alex's Barefaced cabs, took it apart to see how it was constructed, then made my own and one for my mate without making a profit, and called it a "Bear-faced Compote", is that OK?

Edited July 22, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[Al Heeley]

Maybe its ok, but since I didn't set off to exploit other peoples designs as a means of making money then I'm ok with it.
Any of you guys into racing sims? I did a lot of graphic add-ons for Live For Speed, I'm still a (somewhat inactive) mod on their forum but every now and then there used to be hassles about the use of a legit logo like Bridgestone or Tag Heuer on a billboard or car skin. Some forum members used to get a little zealous about the use and abuse of other company's IP and copyright, etc. but at the end of the day it was just a graphic panel on a community race sim - no-one was trying to profit from ripping off other people's IP, it was just hobby stuff coming out. I'm happy with that.
And I've enjoyed the debate, there's been some valid points raised. Sorry if any offence has been caused. It was certainly not my intention.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Al Heeley

[nick]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='548361' date='Jul 22 2009, 10:43 PM']I don't know, it's a difficult topic. I sort-of know Al off other bits of the internets and I know he's a good guy, I'm not trying to paint anybody as a crook.

Thing is though, if - for example - I bought one of Alex's Barefaced cabs, took it apart to see how it was constructed, then made my own and one for my mate without making a profit, and called it a "Bear-faced Compote", is that OK?[/quote]

I would have to say yeah....sorry.
You've already bought one.
*IF you could easily, without requiring particularly advanced skills, make another one for a fraction of the price of a Barefaced cab. Your mate's not got a lot of money, & not in the forseeable future ever going to be able to afford an original anyway, whilst also helping him improve on his rubbish rig.
You could call it what you like really, it doesn't matter - it's only between you & your friend.

Edited July 22, 2009 by nick

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='nick' post='548444' date='Jul 23 2009, 12:00 AM']I would have to say yeah....sorry.
You've already bought one.
You could easily, without requiring particularly advanced skills, make another one for a fraction of the price of a Barefaced cab. Your mate's not got a lot of money, & not in the forseeable future ever going to be able to afford an original anyway, whilst also helping him improve on his rubbish rig.
You could call it what you like really, it doesn't matter - it's only between you & your friend.[/quote]

Plus the cabs are glued together, serious effort to get apart, when you could just use Greenboy's designs to get fairly close, because, with all due respect to Claber, his cabs are mostly just good implementation of known ideas, you can design a cab around the known excellent Kappalite drivers with the free WinISD and get much the same sound, the lightness it down to cunning engineering, granted, but that is like your Zvex clone being in a bigger box.

[bobbass4k]

I think the major thing to remember is that nobody's trying to pass someone else's work as there own. Al fully acknowlodges this is a mammoth clone, which itself is a modified fuzz face clone. The argument is a tricky one though, the fuzz face is a fuzz circuit, one of the first, but there's only so many ways to build a fuzz circuit, all of which share a few core elements, does whoever sold the circuit first get eternal credit for it, and anyone else who builds a circuit and calls it fuzz is just ripping them off? Is everyone who currently makes and sells cars just ripping of Henry Ford? (I know he didn't invent the car, but he was the first person to mass-produce and sell them, which is kinda my point) My point is that most pedals of a certain type are just varations on a theme, Fuzz-Faces and shin-ei's and muff's are cloned so often not because builders are too lazy to deisgn new circuits, but because they're the ciruits that work and that people want.

Just a thought

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='548457' date='Jul 23 2009, 12:14 AM']...but that is like your Zvex clone being in a bigger box.[/quote]
it's a bit more than that though, its my interpretation of someone else's schematic of a WM, sketched out onto a slightly different veroboard layout with some of the components substituted, eg: a couple of the resistors, capacitors and one of the pots - I did not have exactly same value as on the schematic so i used ones close to it, slightly changed the placement on the veroboard to save space, now adding extra bits and pieces too.
Circuit is similar, not identical, layout internally is very different from the WM.

Fuzz circuits have been round for ages - its all in the public domain, one transistor driving another into clipping. Add some correct value resistors to balance the type of transistor used, add some caps to get the right filtering, add some pots to control volume, tone, effect, etc. You can't copyright stuff in the public domain, otherwise going back to the bear-face cab example, anyone else making a same dimensions wooden ply box using same method of jointing would also be accused of ripping off the barefaced cab.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Al Heeley

[JimBobTTD]

Just to make it clear, if anyone wanted to sell these for profit, they could. The name "Woolly Mammoth" is (most likely) copyrighted, and anything too close may get them in trouble. However, the circuit is public domain.

The only potential problem with cloning pedals and selling them is CE marking.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='548552' date='Jul 23 2009, 07:38 AM']Fuzz circuits have been round for ages - its all in the public domain, one transistor driving another into clipping. Add some correct value resistors to balance the type of transistor used, add some caps to get the right filtering, add some pots to control volume, tone, effect, etc. You can't copyright stuff in the public domain, otherwise going back to the bear-face cab example, anyone else making a same dimensions wooden ply box using same method of jointing would also be accused of ripping off the barefaced cab.[/quote]

Not sure anyone is going to accuse [url="http://lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/Cab/fEarful%2015+6.gif"]Fearful[/url] of ripping off Barefaced, and I think it is pretty much the same, you can get a diagram online, and make something very similar in function yourself, its public domain, and you have flex in the design.

[harvey1-8]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='547629' date='Jul 22 2009, 02:48 PM']Best place I can recommend is DIYstompboxes dot com and General Guitar Gadgets, these sites are a wealth of info on effects pedals, techniques, supplies, theory and contain active forums where you can ask like minded geeks who are keen to help assimilate you into their world.
Check out Beavis Audio Research as well - great site with some interesting projects [url="http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/"]http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/[/url]
[/quote]


[quote name='steve' post='547719' date='Jul 22 2009, 03:33 PM']another really good site is freestompboxes.org[/quote]

Thanks for the links guys.

[nick]

[quote name='alexharvay' post='549871' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:29 AM']Thanks for the links guys.[/quote]

What are thinking of building mate?

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='nick' post='549908' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:48 AM']What are thinking of building mate?[/quote]Gawd - I hope he doesn't say anything with an elephant in the name.......... :brow:

[Al Heeley]

OK I got the little blend circuit wired up and installed this evening. Basically a pretty transparent tiny circuit that behaves exactly as you would expect - fully off you get the dry tone of the bass through the circuit, at domestic levels you can certainly hear nothing added or taken from the tone. At fully on the circuit feeds direct fuzz nastiness to the amp. the blender works really well at 2 or 3 to start feeding in a bit of fuzz into the dry tone for a less in-yer-face distortion.
Nice just backed off a bit at 7 or 8. I'll put that one down as a success. Its a much more controllable and usable fuzz with the blend circuit in there.

[bobbass4k]

Did you make that blender from that schematic I put you on to? (PCB arrived btw, cheers) What op-amps did you use? I can't find the ones the schem requires and I'm having a hard time finding substitutes

[Al Heeley]

Glad you got the pcb - that circuit looked too complex for me I used patrick Johnson's mini blender circuit posted on the diystompbox site, I converted his circuit to a simple veroboard layout and posted it on the second page of this thread:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=54915&view=findpost&p=545688"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&sho...st&p=545688[/url]
Works great, uses a single 2n5457 jfet.

[bobbass4k]

Well I haven't started building it, it may prove too complex for me (I can always get my electrician father to salvage it), just ordered all the stuff, that bitbox site is really good, had all the stuff I needed (except a chicklet capacitor, but they seem to be extinct) and a full £7 cheaper than farnell, I'll put up a finished thread if i ever actually finish it

[steve]

[quote name='bobbass4k' post='550801' date='Jul 25 2009, 02:15 AM']Well I haven't started building it, it may prove too complex for me (I can always get my electrician father to salvage it), just ordered all the stuff, that bitbox site is really good, had all the stuff I needed (except a chicklet capacitor, but they seem to be extinct) and a full £7 cheaper than farnell, I'll put up a finished thread if i ever actually finish it[/quote]

wotcha building?