Examples of songs which use one mode?

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554853' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:35 AM']Some of the best jazz musos out there have never fully studied modal thinking. I have spoken to many great players who think the Aebersold methods (and others)are a retrogressive step. Personally, I think the Aebersold (and others) play-along CD's are a great way to practice at home, but they are limited in their scope as the most important aspect of any improvisation (in a group context) is communicating with the other players, listening, reacting to what is going on around you. You can't do that with a CD as the those players can't react to what [u]you [/u]play.
I've read Aebersold's Scale Syllabus that Rob so kindly posted for us. As an analysis of improv choices it is very interesting. And I would recommend it to every player. However, once read and digested, forget it and start being creative.

The Major[/quote]

I disagree. (Sorry!)

There are thousands of musicians who have not had the facility other than things like playalongs, books and the like, so that they can develop their playing, and have gone on to become fine musicians. It's all very well for say, an intermediate musician to expand his improvisational ability in a group of similar muso's IF it is a regular thing and the opportunity is there. Problem is, the beginner and person who does not play regularly with competent musicians, will not be able to develop without a different practice strategy.

The playalong, or practising to cd's of any type, is no different to the age old method which just about every top musician in modern music has admitted to being the way they improved their abilities. In the old days they had to slow down 78's when they were imitating and transcribing the styles of their preferred musical choices. These days, we are fortunate to have the benefits of technology and should use it.

It really is about time that the "old school" changed their dinosaur approach and moved with the times. Half of them wouldn't probably know how to turn a cd player on. This is the samesort of attitude that led to players in the 60's denouncing electric basses and guitars, and synths in the 70's. They were wrong then too.

For bass players, the Aebersold series is brilliant, there are playalongs with Ron Carter, Rufus Reid and many others who have recorded and transcribed their bass lines, and for 20 quid, you can play along with fine musicians, learn tunes, and finally turn off the bass side of the recording and do your own stuff.

I think it a little strange that any qualified musician should think that Aebersold et al would be "retrogressive". Anything that gives a musician the opportunity to play their instrument (and in this case with some of the best players in the business) can only be an advantage.

Maybe in their day, (and I remember them in mine!) when groups of people rehearsed 6 nights a week, or had playing jobs every night of the week, their beliefs may have had creedence. But not now. Musicians don't have the facilities to go and play in "live" situations.

So my advice is ignore the comments of the few that maybe had better "live" facilities and absorb as much theory as you can, and put it in to practice with your backing tracks, your theory books etc. When you come to playing with other musicians, you will be much better equipped than if you had not used facilities of modern technology. And when you get to where you want to be, use the technology available to further your skills. You will certainly NOT regress..grrrrrrrrr.

I read an article by a great sax player from the North East, Ron Aspery (unfortunately no longer with us), lately, in which he raved about the Aebersold stuff as being brilliant for not only newbies, but experienced musicians. He apparently used them extensively in his practice routines.And you can be as creative as you like. It really is no different to playing with real musicians because the common denominator is IT IS MUSIC!!

Whatever you do, keep on practicing.

Edited July 31, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='556664' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:49 PM']At the risk of butting into an already well developed discussion, (and I'm aware that this is probably a little OT by this time,) perhaps I could put a bit of historical perspective into Major-Minor's excellent initial post.

In my final undergraduate year as a Maths/Philosophy student I researched the topic of music in ancient Greece, and wrote a dissertation of my findings.

All this was a long time ago I hasten to add, and the details are fairly cloudy, but the Greeks didn't think about music in the same way we do. They would have had no understanding of the notion of a mode at all (the word 'mode' is derived from the Latin word 'modus' and has no equivalent that I ever found in ancient greek writings). Their music (such as it was) was intimately tied up with their world view generally and their religious beliefs in particular. Folk music in the sense of casual music for the purpose of secular (non-religious) entertainment probably did not exist (despite what Hollywood would like you to believe).

As I understand it (and someone may care to correct me on this) the modes we use today are medieval in origin, set down (like everything else in that period) by the church - in fact musicologists tend to call them the Ecclesiastical Modes for that reason.

The Greeks did not have anything like our understanding of musical harmony - their approach was essentially mathematical in its nature, and the notes heard were simply a consequence of the divisions created by ancient Greek Proportion Theory - roughly the same as the modern notion of Ratio. Most of the important work from that period was done by the Pythagorean religious cult, but also appeared in the work of others such as Plato ( check out The Timaeus).

The Greek names given to the modes are almost certainly to do with the fact that the Medieval Church had a religious philosophy taken almost entirely from ancient Greek Philosophy (particularly the work of Aristotle).



If anybody's still awake I'd be happy to discuss it further ..... [/quote]
This is most interesting. Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. I was always under the impression that the Greek names for modes actually came directly from that Civilisation so to hear that they are medieval in origin is fascinating. It also makes sense when one listens to Plainsong and other church music (not that I do it regularly you understand!). My academic music study was rather enforced by Music College requirements as I was always more interested in playing, so there are gaps in my knowledge.

You say that the Greeks didn't have our understanding of harmony. Surely that is an understatement ? I have always believed that music in Ancient Greek times was purely melodic. The playing of more than 1 note at a time (apart from the drone) surely came much later. What is your understanding on this ?

The Major

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='556799' date='Jul 31 2009, 08:50 AM']I disagree. (Sorry!)

There are thousands of musicians who have not had the facility other than things like playalongs, books and the like, so that they can develop their playing, and have gone on to become fine musicians. It's all very well for say, an intermediate musician to expand his improvisational ability in a group of similar muso's IF it is a regular thing and the opportunity is there. Problem is, the beginner and person who does not play regularly with competent musicians, will not be able to develop without a different practice strategy.

The playalong, or practising to cd's of any type, is no different to the age old method which just about every top musician in modern music has admitted to being the way they improved their abilities. In the old days they had to slow down 78's when they were imitating and transcribing the styles of their preferred musical choices. These days, we are fortunate to have the benefits of technology and should use it.

It really is about time that the "old school" changed their dinosaur approach and moved with the times. Half of them wouldn't probably know how to turn a cd player on. This is the samesort of attitude that led to players in the 60's denouncing electric basses and guitars, and synths in the 70's. They were wrong then too.

For bass players, the Aebersold series is brilliant, there are playalongs with Ron Carter, Rufus Reid and many others who have recorded and transcribed their bass lines, and for 20 quid, you can play along with fine musicians, learn tunes, and finally turn off the bass side of the recording and do your own stuff.

I think it a little strange that any qualified musician should think that Aebersold et al would be "retrogressive". Anything that gives a musician the opportunity to play their instrument (and in this case with some of the best players in the business) can only be an advantage.

Maybe in their day, (and I remember them in mine!) when groups of people rehearsed 6 nights a week, or had playing jobs every night of the week, their beliefs may have had creedence. But not now. Musicians don't have the facilities to go and play in "live" situations.

So my advice is ignore the comments of the few that maybe had better "live" facilities and absorb as much theory as you can, and put it in to practice with your backing tracks, your theory books etc. When you come to playing with other musicians, you will be much better equipped than if you had not used facilities of modern technology. And when you get to where you want to be, use the technology available to further your skills. You will certainly NOT regress..grrrrrrrrr.

I read an article by a great sax player from the North East, Ron Aspery (unfortunately no longer with us), lately, in which he raved about the Aebersold stuff as being brilliant for not only newbies, but experienced musicians. He apparently used them extensively in his practice routines.And you can be as creative as you like. It really is no different to playing with real musicians because the common denominator is IT IS MUSIC!!

Whatever you do, keep on practicing.[/quote]
Rob - I think you have over-reacted to my statements re Aebersold !!
I have several of the CD play-alongs and I often use them for soloing practice.
But surely you can see that there comes a point when you need to get away from this, dare I say, sterile environment and get out there and inter-react with other players. That is the ultimate pleasure in music making - playing with others, in front of an audience.

Everything you say here applies to me too: (I'm not an old school dinosaur .. really I'm not).
I have played along with records when i was young, I have transcribed solos. I played in beat groups that put the big bands out of work, I employed synth players in my bands, I do know how to make a CD player work, I can even use a computer !

Gigs have never been easy to get, but venues are still out there and promotors can still be found.

If somebody has gone to the trouble of learning an instrument, and has done the CD playalong thing, has studied the theory, the reading, etc etc then surely they should try their hardest to get into a band or 2 and get out there and put all that learning into practise.

The Aebersold stuff is only half the picture (and perhaps I was wrong to use the word retrogressive) .... play along as much as you can, but always with a view to doing it for real. Music is a communication between performer and listener. If there is no listener, its a lonely old world......

Actually, "live" music is doing quite well at the moment. Maybe not if you want to make money out of it - but if you are happy to play for peanuts, there are opportunities everywhere.

The Major

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='557410' date='Jul 31 2009, 08:28 PM']Rob - I think you have over-reacted to my statements re Aebersold !!
I have several of the CD play-alongs and I often use them for soloing practice.
But surely you can see that there comes a point when you need to get away from this, dare I say, sterile environment and get out there and inter-react with other players. That is the ultimate pleasure in music making - playing with others, in front of an audience.[/quote]

One issue though, for me anyway and I imagine for others, is that most of the people I play with know as much or less about music than I do.

I'm sure I could go out to a jazz jam night or something and it would be hugely beneficial for me (and no doubt hugely embarrassing the first few times), but I'm a long way off knowing enough to do that, and the last place I'd want to put my study to practice is playing songs I don't really know with a bunch of people I've never met before.

[XB26354]

Just to dip my toe in the water....

I also own several Aebersold books. In my mind their function is to get your playing together, to understand how to play over jazz, both as an accompanist and as a soloist. These are foundational skills required to have a working knowledge of standard chord structures and the most well-known tunes. Just as classical musicians learn the "repertoire", so budding jazz musicians need to learn the language. The next step is to play with other musicians to learn how to interact and also to make your sound fit with a group. Without this step it is very hard to be a professional player or to go to the next step of developing a voice and vocabulary of your own. The problem is the lack of places to play. What chance do most young players have to develop? Music colleges are a very poor substitute. So, the aebersold playalongs give you the opportunity to hear world-class musicians playing familiar material. The only downside of playalongs and jazz is that they are the same every time, so you do lose the spontaneity of improvisation. With regard to modes and other theory devices, they are just sounds. Jazz is really ear music, so I think it is better to listen to sounds and react to them rather than to pigeon-hole something as "modal" or bebop - and I'm pretty sure when the musicians of the time were creating the music they weren't thinking in those terms.
Mat

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='557395' date='Jul 31 2009, 08:03 PM']This is most interesting. Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. I was always under the impression that the Greek names for modes actually came directly from that Civilisation so to hear that they are medieval in origin is fascinating. It also makes sense when one listens to Plainsong and other church music (not that I do it regularly you understand!). My academic music study was rather enforced by Music College requirements as I was always more interested in playing, so there are gaps in my knowledge.

You say that the Greeks didn't have our understanding of harmony. Surely that is an understatement ? I have always believed that music in Ancient Greek times was purely melodic. The playing of more than 1 note at a time (apart from the drone) surely came much later. What is your understanding on this ?

The Major[/quote]

Thanks for the compliment. I remember it as one the most enjoyable things I did in my whole degree.

Just to spin the mode names out a bit more, the names we currently give to the modes actually correspond to early Greek tribes, which roughly speaking had scales intended to convey their tribal characteristics (opinions on exactly how this worked differ). The scales had no harmonic connection to each other in the way we like to think of modal structures today. I'm not really as well up on medieval music, but as far as I know the formalisation took place during the Middle ages - how they came to have the specific names assigned is most likely to do with diatonic approximations of the tribal scale structures the Medieval musicologists had available to them handed down from antiquity. So in a sense the modes are descended from Greek antiquity, but not in the way most people would imagine.

As to harmony, it does seem to be the case that music from early Greek history was essentially melodic in character, although there is some evidence that the simultaneous playing of multiple notes was beginning to be observed by Plato, which basically dates it to the 4th century BC. What is worth noting is that although harmony in the modern sense was rare, the Greeks had a very sophisticated understanding of scales (which however looked very different from modern Diatonic scales) - actually scales in Ancient Greek music is quite a decent sized topic on it's own. The concept of a drone note is an interesting one, as it implies a tonal centre - the early equivalent of a modern musical key. Very common in (for example) Indian music, I'm not sure that it had much of a place in ancient Greece. Without getting into too much detail, all music was most likely restricted to a single octave (the Greeks had a good understanding of the notion of an Octave, a fifth and a fourth - their music was based on Tetrachords - but the mathematics used to construct the scales pretty much precluded any notion of multiple octaves). Because of this, and because Greek music put such a heavy emphasis on the concordant notes, the tonal centre would probably have been fairly obvious from the musical sequence. Also bear in mind that the Greeks had no notion of absolute pitch the way we do.

As if all this isn't already hard enough, many of the words we use to describe music are modernisations of Greek originals - filtered through the Latin scholars from whom we get most of what we know. Trouble is, with few exceptions the original meanings of the words as understood at the time were different from the meanings we give them - in fact one of the hardest aspects of this whole area of study is being able to unload our modern musical training sufficiently to enable us to properly grasp what the ancient Greeks were actually on about!

Hope this helps.

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='557410' date='Jul 31 2009, 08:28 PM']Rob - I think you have over-reacted to my statements re Aebersold !!
I have several of the CD play-alongs and I often use them for soloing practice.
But surely you can see that there comes a point when you need to get away from this, dare I say, sterile environment and get out there and inter-react with other players. That is the ultimate pleasure in music making - playing with others, in front of an audience.[/quote]

Of course it is. But believe me, the opportunities for budding musicians in a live environment is not as good as you make out. Honestly Certainly not in an environment where someone can push the boundaries a bit.

[quote]Everything you say here applies to me too: (I'm not an old school dinosaur .. really I'm not).
I have played along with records when i was young, I have transcribed solos. I played in beat groups that put the big bands out of work, I employed synth players in my bands, I do know how to make a CD player work, I can even use a computer ![/quote]

It doesn't apply to you at all. But the sort of comment that denigrates Aebersold et al does get spouted by a lot of dinosaurs. Strangely enough, a lot of the old school that have slagged him off over the years have their own playalongs now.

[quote]Gigs have never been easy to get, but venues are still out there and promotors can still be found.[/quote]

Not for the sort of stuff that goes beyond the equivalent of "Britains Got Talent" or whatever it's called.

[quote]If somebody has gone to the trouble of learning an instrument, and has done the CD playalong thing, has studied the theory, the reading, etc etc then surely they should try their hardest to get into a band or 2 and get out there and put all that learning into practise.[/quote]

I agree! But unless they use the technology and training materials, they are not going to get the sort of opportunities we did (and I did the Mecca circuit too) to develop.

[quote]The Aebersold stuff is only half the picture (and perhaps I was wrong to use the word retrogressive) .... play along as much as you can, but always with a view to doing it for real. Music is a communication between performer and listener. If there is no listener, its a lonely old world......[/quote]

Once again, I agree. My problem is that I disagree with people who dismiss the training material out of hand. A lot of them are hypocritical because they used the old 78's but made hard work of learning their craft.

[quote]Actually, "live" music is doing quite well at the moment. Maybe not if you want to make money out of it - but if you are happy to play for peanuts, there are opportunities everywhere.[/quote]

Oh no it isn't doing well at the moment!! Ask most of the players in the general forum. And because the Aebersold series has a simple but effective approach to developing the interested musician, I will defend it until the cows come home. It's not the be-all and end-all, but the Aebersold series is certainly a veritable help to the budding muso. And until something else comes along, I would recommend anyone who wants a good basic education and to have some "sterile" fun - get stuck in.

It certainly makes learning the standards a lot of fun and intersting. And as you know, if a bass player learns inside out, a dozen or so standards, they can play most anything in that genre.

As I said, I am not having a go at you personally. But the live music scene is not healthy and anything that can generate interest and develop musicianship has to be a good thing. I have been very surprised at the amount of interest in the Weekly Lesson, but am pleased that I/we can supply information to spark someone into advancing their skills.

Sorry if I came over a bit "strong" - it wasn't meant to be that way. But I do feel strongly about music and will defend any "system" that can help a musician, regardless of it's assessed content by people who thing the world is still flat (if you know what I mean). (and I don't mean you Pete!!)

Edited August 1, 2009 by rslaing

[foal30]

I'm a big fan of the Abersold playalongs
for getting it together it's high rotate for my practice regime for sure.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='557477' date='Jul 31 2009, 11:10 PM']Thanks for the compliment. I remember it as one the most enjoyable things I did in my whole degree.

Just to spin the mode names out a bit more, the names we currently give to the modes actually correspond to early Greek tribes, which roughly speaking had scales intended to convey their tribal characteristics (opinions on exactly how this worked differ). The scales had no harmonic connection to each other in the way we like to think of modal structures today. I'm not really as well up on medieval music, but as far as I know the formalisation took place during the Middle ages - how they came to have the specific names assigned is most likely to do with diatonic approximations of the tribal scale structures the Medieval musicologists had available to them handed down from antiquity. So in a sense the modes are descended from Greek antiquity, but not in the way most people would imagine.

As to harmony, it does seem to be the case that music from early Greek history was essentially melodic in character, although there is some evidence that the simultaneous playing of multiple notes was beginning to be observed by Plato, which basically dates it to the 4th century BC. What is worth noting is that although harmony in the modern sense was rare, the Greeks had a very sophisticated understanding of scales (which however looked very different from modern Diatonic scales) - actually scales in Ancient Greek music is quite a decent sized topic on it's own. The concept of a drone note is an interesting one, as it implies a tonal centre - the early equivalent of a modern musical key. Very common in (for example) Indian music, I'm not sure that it had much of a place in ancient Greece. Without getting into too much detail, all music was most likely restricted to a single octave (the Greeks had a good understanding of the notion of an Octave, a fifth and a fourth - their music was based on Tetrachords - but the mathematics used to construct the scales pretty much precluded any notion of multiple octaves). Because of this, and because Greek music put such a heavy emphasis on the concordant notes, the tonal centre would probably have been fairly obvious from the musical sequence. Also bear in mind that the Greeks had no notion of absolute pitch the way we do.

As if all this isn't already hard enough, many of the words we use to describe music are modernisations of Greek originals - filtered through the Latin scholars from whom we get most of what we know. Trouble is, with few exceptions the original meanings of the words as understood at the time were different from the meanings we give them - in fact one of the hardest aspects of this whole area of study is being able to unload our modern musical training sufficiently to enable us to properly grasp what the ancient Greeks were actually on about!

Hope this helps.[/quote]
leftybassman - this is brilliant ! You put everything in easily understandable language - many thanks! Personally I would love to hear more of your knowledge on this subject (in small doses ideally, for my small brain) if you have the time and inclination.
I would love to know more about: tetrachords / absolute pitch / scales in Ancient Greek music etc

The Major

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='557655' date='Aug 1 2009, 11:02 AM']leftybassman - this is brilliant ! You put everything in easily understandable language - many thanks! Personally I would love to hear more of your knowledge on this subject (in small doses ideally, for my small brain) if you have the time and inclination.
I would love to know more about: tetrachords / absolute pitch / scales in Ancient Greek music etc

The Major[/quote]

I love the Greeks! This kind of stuff bores most people to tears, but for me they represent the birth of Western civilisation - one of the most important cultures in the history of mankind. That applies to their music as much as anything else.

This has the feel of quite a long discussion. If you'd like to PM me with your email address we can get things moving - won't have much time over the next couple of weeks though as I help to run a Blues Summer School at Northampton Uni next week, and then we're away on holiday. But we can get started at least.

If anybody else is reading this and wants to get involved BTW then feel free to PM me as well. If enough people respond we may be able to set up something more formal. I'll have a bit of a think...

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='557481' date='Jul 31 2009, 11:20 PM']believe me, the opportunities for budding musicians in a live environment is not as good as you make out. Honestly Certainly not in an environment where someone can push the boundaries a bit.


But the live music scene is not healthy and anything that can generate interest and develop musicianship has to be a good thing.[/quote]
This is interesting.
I often complain that there seem to be fewer opportunities for young players these days - and yet I hear conflicting views on this.

I don't teach much these days, but the students i have at the moment all seem to be busy with gigs - both the well paid function gigs and the "peanuts" jazz gigs. If you look in the jazz listings websites and JazzUk mag etc, there seems to be plenty going on. I read recently in the PRS magazine, that Fergal Sharkey (ex Undertones singer, now a government live music advisor) believes that live music is thriving.

Personally (outside of my BBC work) I get plenty of offers, both money gigs and peanuts gigs, most of which I have to regretfully turn down due to my BBC schedule.

Having said this, it does appear that the jazz venues are struggling to keep going, often only managing it because of the enthusiasm of the (usually) ageing promotor who very often dips into his own pocket to pay the (usually very small) fee to the players. When these guys die out, I guess things will get harder.
The jazz festival scene is patchy, but I've heard of good attendances at some Manchester Jazz Fest gigs last week. Shame about Appleby Fest tho'.

So what is the truth ? Is it just the pop world that is thriving ? Are jazz gigs more difficult to get in some areas of the country?

And do many of you think of going on jazz courses ? I did this many years ago - exhausting but great fun. Is there room for more such things ?

I vaguely wondered about trying to get the my Ed and Comm manager at the Beeb to organise something along the lines of a bass course - covering all styles of playing, bringing bass players of all types together - a bit like the BassDay thing - but a whole weekend course with top players from all genres giving masterclasses etc. Would people be interested ? Or would players be put off by being thrown in with musos from outside their preferred genre ? Would people pay for such a thing ? It's just a thought ...........

The Major

[steve-soar]

Do it. You seem to have a deep understanding of the chaotic beauty of music.

[leftybassman392]

Thanks to those who responded to my offer of some insights into ancient music. I'm now very busy with the summer school followed by the holiday. I'll get back to you after the 15th.

Cheers for now,


Andy