Drummers...

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='549783' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:44 AM']damn didnt think anyone else used my trick . TBH I find it really difficult to hear the bass drum and listening to the hi hat can be confusing so thats my only strategy.[/quote]

Me too.

Most of them are OK if you with resting a foot on the spike, if you ask nicely. Though one guy asked me to stop, as he felt I was "looming over him, pulling faces and it's a bit scary"

FWIW, on a first time out, I usually ask them if we can just play some mid-tempo straight fours, no fills, for a few minutes. Just to start to find a basic pulse. Clever stuff later.

Edited July 24, 2009 by skankdelvar

[OldGit]

[quote name='lowdown' post='550096' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:49 PM']Of course locking in with the Drummer is important.
But it is just as important you know what you doing on the Tune front.
It might be worth contacting the guy in charge and getting a clue as to what you are jamming.
An experienced guy would just erm..'Jam'.
But if you are feeling vulnerable with that side of it and have trouble with busking...
Then just locking in with the kit or watching various bits of the kit wont really help. [ unless you know the tunes]
Its really just down to a bit of preparation.... i would think,


Garry[/quote]


+1 prepared spontaneity is always the best type

[Chris2112]

I think it really helps to be on clear terms about what you want from your jam sessions, and discussing this first really helps to get the best results.

It's likely that the drummer will know your level of ability, and hopefully you'll not be too far apart in terms of skill. I'd imagine Neil Peart would soon tire of jamming with Fieldy, just as Mark King would soon tire of jamming with someone who sucked on the kit. If you're planning to sit down and flex, make it clear before you start busting out the chops. If you're looking for a spacier session with more room to groove, tell your drummer that too.

But remember, always listen to each other. Typically, I like the drummer to lead and give me a beat to work over and I'll go from there. The kick and the snare are my main counterpoints, and thats what I'll try and link up with. The hi hat can be useful for outlining the pace of the beat if it's a rather exotic piece. Play with your ears first and let your hands follow.

I like to refer back to "Dara Factor One" from Weather Report's 1982 self titled album. It starts with what has been described as an "ass backwards beat" which Zawinul asked for. On top of that, Zawinul outlines a chord structure with his keys and Jaco starts grooving around that with some awesome improvisation and some of the most beautifully crafted lines I've ever heard, and Shorter compliments all of this with sparse but powerful ornamentation. And it makes you think, you can get a hell of a lot from just a drum beat!

[iamapirate]

IMO the best drummersare the ones that canmake the ximpest of beats sound like the best thing in the world. It's all about confidence. What YOU need to do is just follow whatever he's doing.

The kick drum is always the best place to start, and if you're not hitting your note on almost every time that kick hits the skin, then you need to sort something out. Something I have noticed, is that f he's hitting it on 2 and 4 on a quiet section, hitting it on 1 and 3 actually works. It makes it sound like you're hitting it on all 4, but you're in fact not. it's a good way of building up.

Now I have a question that is based on what this guy will probably experience: The lead singer/guitarist goes out of time. The drummer can't quite tell - but he knows something's gone wrong. The g-tard singer decides in his mind that he is right and everyone should follow him. The drummer's heard that he's the centre of the band and carries on. Who do you follow??

[Chris2112]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='550696' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:12 PM']and if you're not hitting your note on almost every time that kick hits the skin, then you need to sort something out.[/quote]

Mate, what if you're angling around a back beat?

[simon1964]

[quote name='Eight' post='549496' date='Jul 23 2009, 10:46 PM']Does it help to stare at them, or is that just going to freak the guy out?[/quote]

I've no idea whether it freaks him out, but I watch our drummer a lot. I've played with him in two or three bands over a lot of years, and I like to think we form a really tight unit. Neither of us would pretend to be techncially the best in the world, but I feel like we lock in together really well - and a lot of that is down to watching, especially his right footing hitting the bass drum pedal. You need to listen too of course!

Edit - just read the rest of this thread and its interesting to see how many others watch the drummer's right foot!

Edited July 24, 2009 by simon1964

[Eight]

Some really great posts coming in which I'm reading multiple times to try and learn the advice and strategies.

[quote name='lowdown' post='550096' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:49 PM']It might be worth contacting the guy in charge and getting a clue as to what you are jamming.[/quote]
As far as I picked up, there would be a "band" meeting to meet everyone and discuss song choices etc. before any rehearsal was arranged.

51mon (v. funny post earlier) and Pirate have touched upon something I'm too scared to think about - what if the guitarist is going wrong. With such a short playing time under my belt I have no right to criticise anyone. I'm just worrying about the rhythm section and will cross my fingers on the rest.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='51m0n' post='550041' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:07 PM']Should be a requirement of all musicians and bands that want to be 'tight' that they should set up a handclap on 2 & 4 on a drum machine and rehearse with that through the PA, it does wonders for everyone![/quote]
Good Lord.. I can't imagine anything worse!

[teej]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='550847' date='Jul 25 2009, 08:10 AM']Good Lord.. I can't imagine anything worse! [/quote]
Jeez! I'm with you, sounds like hell!

[Josh]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='550696' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:12 PM']IMO the best drummersare the ones that canmake the ximpest of beats sound like the best thing in the world. It's all about confidence. What YOU need to do is just follow whatever he's doing.[/quote]

+1

Just listen to my mate make Indie drumming interesting:

[TimR]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='550696' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:12 PM']Now I have a question that is based on what this guy will probably experience: The lead singer/guitarist goes out of time. The drummer can't quite tell - but he knows something's gone wrong. The g-tard singer decides in his mind that he is right and everyone should follow him. The drummer's heard that he's the centre of the band and carries on. Who do you follow??[/quote]

The drummer is the metronome of the band. Always move to follow the drummer. Guitarists and vocalists can be miles out and a lot of the audience won't notice. The bass and drums have to continue driving together, especially if te audience are dancing.

If the drummer doesn't understand 'feel', then it can be very hard to play anything. This applies to funk and rock equally. Its a sweeping generalisation to say that 2 and 4 should always be dead on the beat, there are plenty of tunes where the beat is implied and no one plays dead on the beat. Drum machines generally have no feel.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Eight' post='550747' date='Jul 25 2009, 12:19 AM']what if the guitarist is going wrong. With such a short playing time under my belt I have no right to criticise anyone. I'm just worrying about the rhythm section and will cross my fingers on the rest.[/quote]

Stick with the drummer.

[The Funk]

There are a few others above who've said focus on the snare/hi-hat. I prefer that approach to trying to lock with the kick drum.

When you really [i]click[/i] with a drummer you can both sit back and listen to the vocalist instead.

[Rowbee]

[quote name='Josh' post='551999' date='Jul 26 2009, 07:27 PM']+1

Just listen to my mate make Indie drumming interesting:[/quote]

I always prefer nice, well tuned. small toms like his because they sound more musical and less tub thumpy.

[Josh]

[quote name='Rowbee' post='552027' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:04 PM']I always prefer nice, well tuned. small toms like his because they sound more musical and less tub thumpy. [/quote]

The boy has taste.

He was for ages a big Travis Barker fan and we were both in a Pop-Punk band together for a short while, but we we're the only ones who wanted to actually become good at our instruments, so he went and joined a Southern Hardcore Rock band called Young Hollywood, and even recorded with Dan from Sikth, but now he's settled in his Indie band.

[SteveO]

[quote name='TimR' post='552016' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:49 PM']The drummer is the metronome of the band. Always move to follow the drummer. Guitarists and vocalists can be miles out and a lot of the audience won't notice. The bass and drums have to continue driving together, especially if te audience are dancing.[/quote]

+1 Absolutely. This is what people mean when they say that guitars and vocals are easier to play than the Drums and Bass. It's also what makes the ability to keep time worth infinately more to a bassist than being able to widdle all the way up and down the neck like lightning. I'd go further and say that Vocals and lead guitar HAVE to wander around the beat (within reason of course) in order not to sound too straight and stodgy. The bassist golden rule is to keep locked with the drummer at all times.

[Marvin]

[quote name='SteveO' post='552062' date='Jul 26 2009, 09:00 PM']+1 Absolutely. This is what people mean when they say that guitars and vocals are easier to play than the Drums and Bass. It's also what makes the ability to keep time worth infinately more to a bassist than being able to widdle all the way up and down the neck like lightning. I'd go further and say that Vocals and lead guitar HAVE to wander around the beat (within reason of course) in order not to sound too straight and stodgy. The bassist golden rule is to keep locked with the drummer at all times. [/quote]

Full agreement. Bit worried about the drummer I play with though, he keeps on saying he can't see my foot. I've bought some really funky shoes lately, perhaps he likes them. Odd.

[leschirons]

Keep it simple to start with, economy can be great sometimes. Assuming you're right handed, stand on his left (as you both face the stage) as it's easier to see the kit, the kick pedal and his hands. Watch for any pushes coming up ( our drummer sticks them in randomly without thinking if it compliments the song, twat)

It also helps if you get to be mates outside the band.

Oh, I forgot, it's also easier if he's a competent drummer.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='leschirons' post='553546' date='Jul 28 2009, 08:38 AM']Keep it simple to start with, economy can be great sometimes. Assuming you're right handed, stand on his left (as you both face the stage) as it's easier to see the kit, the kick pedal and his hands. Watch for any pushes coming up ( our drummer sticks them in randomly without thinking if it compliments the song, twat)

It also helps if you get to be mates outside the band.

Oh, I forgot, it's also easier if he's a [b]competent drummer[/b].[/quote]

damn right...or at least one that will, whilst ripping through Mustang Sally at 290bpm, pay attn when you shout "SLOW THE F^2k DOWN!!!" and doesn't just give you a blank, dead-eyed grin.

[JTUK]

Late to this thread so I haven't read it all...but best musician I ever played with was/is a drummer.

Some you gel with and some you don't and that, IMV, is all down to where you both hear the beat.

Some will talk about where 'the drummer hears the 1' but I think it is all about 2 and 4 in the bar as this is where the snare is mostly.
Does the drummer play it in front, on it or slightly behind..and how does that marry up to how you hear it..??

If you are in tune ( together ) there, you stand a very good chance of sounding a unit..

[endorka]

[quote name='JTUK' post='556181' date='Jul 30 2009, 02:05 PM']Some will talk about where 'the drummer hears the 1' but I think it is all about 2 and 4 in the bar as this is where the snare is mostly.
Does the drummer play it in front, on it or slightly behind..and how does that marry up to how you hear it..??[/quote]

I would agree with this, it is on the snare beat that you are most likely to notice if the drummer is dragging. They most obvious displacement of the "1" is usually after they play a fill...

Jennifer

[TimR]

That is why I referred to it as 'feel'.

It depends greatly on the style and mood of the piece whether the beat feels pushed or behind.

'Dragging' implies to me that the whole tune is getting slower because someone is not keeping up. 'Rushing' implies to me that that someone is speeding the tune up.

Playing behind the beat is not dragging, it is a technique used to make a tune sound more relaxed, and playing ahead of the beat is not 'rushing' its a technique used to make the tune sound more exciting.

Good musicians will know whether to play ahead or behind, but again by how much is up to the drummer to set, (although a lot of fun can be had when the bass is behind what the drummer is playing and vice versa) and if they are not playing it right, you will probably need to talk to them and rehearse that passage. This is pretty advanced drumming and not many drummers get the concept.

Again sweeping generalisations.

Edited July 30, 2009 by TimR

[Rich]

[quote name='Eight' post='549472' date='Jul 23 2009, 10:28 PM']I thought I saw a similar topic once, but couldn't find anything when I searched.

There is a possibility I may have talked myself into a sort of casual jamming type situation with some more experienced musicians - it's not concrete yet, but could happen. I've been honest in saying how short a time I've been playing, how limited my abilities are etc. etc. but obviously the prospect of doing this thing is still a little daunting. I was thinking about it all this morning, and figured that there's not much I can do in a short time about my level; but it could make a big difference if I can somehow gel with the drummer asap if/when we start playing.

Wondering if anyone has any tips for doing this? I'm sure there's no magic trick to it all, but this is an area of bass playing that I have no knowledge of and would rather not test their patience any more than necessary.

Cheers.[/quote]
I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has been said, but this is how I'd approach it.[list]
[*]Keep your eyes and ears wide open.
[*][b]Watch his kick foot[/b], lock in with it.
[*]Make eye contact with him (although not so much that he starts thinking you fancy him, of course).
[*]You should get a good idea of his feel fairly quickly -- when he puts in a fill, go with it if you can, it sounds wicked and can work really well.
[*]Befriend him, buy him beer, make sure he reciprocates
[*]Enjoy.
[/list]There are few things better or more satisfying than playing with a good drummer. A good rhythm section will make an average band sound great, but a sloppy rhythm section will make even the best band suck.


EDIT: just read through. +1 for following the drummer, if the guitard goes wrong then that's his lookout. Keep the rhythm section solid.

[JTUK]

TimR I agree..

One of our more regular drummers plays it in front and that is his style... I prefer it behind but have to go with he puts up..
People think we work well together but I can find it a struggle at times..the best drummers IMV, have good ears as well as techinique and feel and can vary it...

Some are just oblivious.. unfortunately...

Time keeping shouldn't even be the issue we are talking about here.

[JTUK]

Ok..have read through this a bit more..

If you are to meet and talk about the set..then that isn't really jamming as such ..so that can be a good thing.

The key to making a decent impression is to pick things up quickly so there is a sense that the unit can move forward..
so if you have advance notice of what they want to play..make notes on the tunes.
Get there early and set up quicky to get your sound 1st...
Ask what key they play them in.. as it might not always be the same as the tape/cd reference.

If there a re any difficult passages with dodgy chords in them..clarify that before you butcher the song
Get conversant with a few terms that guitarists throw around...and that should mean something to all..

Make sure you know what a 12 bar is... shuffle, swing, etc etc as these are all pointers you should be able to react to..
Chord charts with a few pointers are good ....

Finally, make sure you have a good old rock'n'roll ending to tie the song off with..

And make it fun... it may be an informal audiition so make sure you get along