The Weekly Lesson - Lesson 3 PART 2

[rslaing]

[b]The Weekly Lesson - Lesson 3 - Part 2[/b]

This lesson is a continuance of Lesson 3 Part 1 and if you haven't read that one and downloaded the play-alongs, this one could make no sense whatsoever.

People interested in this topic must start from lesson 1 part one and progress sequentially, or they will be very confused, none of these lessons are "stand alone" lessons and depend on the integration of the previous lesson every time.

I have had a few questions about how this stuff could be relevant if you don't like/want to play jazz type bass lines.

Simple - it's all relevant to any type of music. Once you get this stuff in your head, the only (main) difference between the type of music I use for examples and play-alongs and any other genre will be the rhythmic aspect, the sound of your instrument the other musicians around you, and the volume you play at.

Once you know the sounds of chords and their scalar notes, you can put in, or leave out of your music whatever you like.

Take the information and apply it to your preferred genre of music, the harmonic aspect is no different no matter what.

[b]Key Centres.[/b]

The most common question I get asked, and people have difficulty getting to grips with, is "how do I know which notes I can play over a chord?"

The answer is (apart from knowing your scales and arpeggios etc), by being able to recognise key centres in a song, so you will know the correct notes to play when creating a bass line.

This might sound obvious to some, but one of my main problems when I first started playing, was knowing which notes I could use to "join up" the chordal notes in an arpeggio, and until I got the sounds of intervals in my ear/head, which notes would "fit" when I took a solo and improvised.

I couldn't understand why, for example, the scalar notes on some minor 7th chords could be different to those of another minor 7th in another part of the same song. Then I realised that it was because although the chordal notes were the same (1,3,5 and b7), the other notes that could be used were to be taken from the scale of the key that was relevant to that part of the song. All will be revealed below!

[b]Let's analyse the form of the song[/b]. It is in four sections, and we call it an "A A B A" form.

For convenience, I have re-listed the links to relevant material for part two here:

[url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-ur-bassandmelody.MP3"]Link to first track with melody, chords and bass[/url]

[url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-ur-chords-only.MP3"]Link to second track with just chords for you to play along with - melody is on attached songsheet with chords.[/url]

[url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-you-are.pdf"]Link to songsheet[/url]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=29523"]Open the songsheet here[/url]

[b]The intro[/b] has a chord we haven't come across yet a 7#9, and it is explained below.
[b][i]( NOTE:- the notation on the leadsheet is 7+9, this is an older americanised way that some writers used in their notation. Please read this as 7#9, I will amend future song/leadsheets if necessary.)[/i][/b]

After the intro" the first part of the song, bars 5 - 12, is the first "A" section in the AABA form.

The second part of the song, starting at bar 13 through to 20, is another 8 bars we will also label as an "A". For this purpose I will add a "*" after it because although it is very similar to the first "A" section, this section is in a different key.

The third part, bars 21 - 28, we call the B part of AABA form. This section is labelled differently to the A sections because it IS different - has different keys and melody line.

The fourth part is also labelled with an "A". We go back to the original melody here, and to finish off the song a cadence (series of chords marking the end of a phrase, section, or piece of music) is added in the last few bars.

[b]THE FIRST A SECTION: BARS 5 - 12[/b].

In this first section, there are two key centres...Ab and C.

The chord progression is a 6-2-5-1-4 in the key of Ab. All scalar notes from the scale of Ab major can be played over this section without fear of extreme dissonance. 6-2-5-1-4, or as is more commonly seen in roman numerals , VI - II -V -I -IV, is telling you the chords are built on those degrees of the scale relevant to this key centre. If you were building these chords from the scale Ab, [b]VI - II - V - I - IV[/b] would be [b]Fm - Bbm - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - and Db[/b]. So the scale of Ab major would be used when improvising over this sequence, or if playing a walking line, the notes of Ab major would be used to "join up" your chordal notes.

The song then moves in to the key of C major via a II - V - 1. The chords are Dm - G7#9 - C. To give the dominant chord a bit of "flavour" and get away from the anticipated standard II V I sound, the G7 has been changed to a G7#9. It doesn't clash with the melody, adds a little tension and gives more relief when it moves to the C major.

We haven't covered the 7#9 yet so here is a bit of info. Most players agree that the dominant 7#9 chord also contains all of the altered tensions we discussed in the previous lessons. In other words, the b9, #9, b5, #5 and of course the b7. This scale is more commonly called (believe it or not) the "altered" scale, and is sometimes written as (for example) "C alt"

The scale is derived from the Melodic minor (ascending) or Jazz minor scale. If you play from the seventh note of the jazz/melodic minor scale ascending, you now have the altered scale. Make sure you practice it in all keys!

Technically, it should be written C7#9#5, because there is another scale which can be played over C7#9 that has a natural 5th in the chord. We will cover that in a later lesson so please accept for now that if you see a 7#9 chord, the writer will in 99% of cases assumed the altered chord and scale.

Scale notes for C7#9 are C, Db, Eb, E, Gb, Ab and Bb. Chordal notes are C, E, Bb and Eb. TRY PLAYING THIS OVER THE C7#9 IN THE INTRO then transpose the scale to G7#9, D7#9, B7#9 and Eb7#9 so you can use it in other parts of the song.

It's a beautiful scale and chord. As well as being heavily used in jazz, Hendrix played it a lot. Try playing this 4 note chord above the 12th fret for clarity on your bass to get "the sound" of it. You'll be able to throw the chord into some of your blues tunes too.


[b]THE SECOND A* SECTION - bars 13 to 20
[/b]
This section has a similar structure to the first A section, but has the key centres of Eb and G.
Again, the first five bars are 6-2-5-1-4, but in Eb. This moves in to a 2-5-1 progression in the key of G.
This whole section is the same progression as in the first A section except a perfect fourth interval lower. This means ANYTHING you play over the first 8 bars can be played over the second 8 bars by simply moving the pattern up a fifth or down a fourth interval. A great way to develop motivic themes.

[b]THE B SECTION - bars 21 - 28
[/b]
This section is what is commonly called "the bridge"

We have 2 new key centres.

The first 4 bars are a 2 - 5 - 1 in G.

The next three bars are a 2-5-1 in the key of E.

This section ends with another 7#9 to lead us back into:

[b]THE FINAL A SECTION.[/b]

The first 5 bars are the same as the first A section of the song.
The next four bars contain a chromatically descending progression of minor chords (very nice!), before a 2-5-1 of Bbm to Eb7#9 and Abmaj7. If you have the facility, loop these 3 bars that I recorded in the first part of this lesson (using the chords and drums recording, not the other one) and develop a scale that would fit all three chords if you can. You can start by simply playing the scales relevant to each chord to get the sound in to your head. Then find common notes to each. The maybe find some dissonant notes that work - just experiment!!!

The final two chords in the last bar are another 2-5 progression to return us to the first A section. Loop this section and see if you can find a common scale that will work over it, as well as the individual scalar notes.

Here is a graphical display of the key centres. You will notice that the chords are slightly different and the intro is missing. It doesn't matter, it is only there so you can now visually put all of the above in to perspective. Try using the chords in this sheet over the playalong if you like, it will help you to differentiate the sounds of basic chords against those with tensions added.

[attachment=29748:key_cent...is_attya.jpg]

[b]Word of warning.[/b]

The information provided is only a guide. Although the scalar notes etc will work for you when applied theoretically, this will not necessarily make it musical. But we have to start somewhere, and once you have internalised the theory and the sounds, you can add to, or discard stuff to suit your style.

Practice in a way that you find interesting, or you will not develop. Make it musical. Have a break every 30 minutes for 10 mins, so you can subconsciously absorb what you have been doing.

Finally, if possible, buy a copy of "[url="http://www.seventhstring.com/index.html"]Transcribe![/url]" for your computer. It makes practising so much more interesting and beneficial. It is a great tool for all musicians and it is not expensive. You can loop sections, slow down and speed up cd's at the same pitch as the original to develop your playing and ear skills and so much more.

As usual, let me know of any glaring errors or questions you have regarding the above.

Rob

Edited July 29, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

Well done Rob ! As usual, you have put a huge amount of work in to this - I applaud your endeavours.

Can I just clarify a few points that some readers might find confusing:
On the songsheet you have put the 1st two bars as Fm and Bbm. Perfectly alright - but it would be better if they were marked as Fm7 and Bbm7 as the flow of the sequence works better with these 7ths added. To be fair, you have marked them as such on the chord sheet at the end of the post. Without these 7ths being stated, the chords (triads) sound too static and lacking in direction.

In bar 28, you have put C7 +9. This bar is usually stated in most fake books as C7+ - in other words C dominant 7 with an augmented 5th: C E [u]Gsharp[/u] Bb. If you look at the melody line, the [u]Gsharp[/u] goes through both bar 27 and 28 and then carries on into the next section as an Ab. This note is a feature of this moment in the melody, the chords changing (modulating) while the note stays the same.
You have explained that the symbol C7 +9 means a sharpened 9 (ie Dsharp). Therefore this gives us C E G Bb Dsharp. The Gsharp in the melody will not work very well against the G natural in your chord symbol.
A whole tone scale will work nicely over C7augmented (C7+). (There are of course only 2 wholetone scales.)

Bar 36 you state as a Bminor chord - yet the melody line is G and F. A better chord symbol at this bar would be Bo (B diminished). This is one of those rare moments where the Locrian mode can be invoked.

And finally:
Bar 38 has an F minim followed by a G minim in the melody. Therefore the Eb7 +9 chord only works under the second half of the bar, the first minim being an Eb9 chord.

Sorry to be so pedantic !

The Major

[Sean]

This is very much appreciated, Rob. Really good stuff and very useful for me at the moment. Keep up the good work.

Thanks

Sean

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='553807' date='Jul 28 2009, 12:22 PM']Well done Rob ! As usual, you have put a huge amount of work in to this - I applaud your endeavours.

Can I just clarify a few points that some readers might find confusing:
On the songsheet you have put the 1st two bars as Fm and Bbm. Perfectly alright - but it would be better if they were marked as Fm7 and Bbm7 as the flow of the sequence works better with these 7ths added. To be fair, you have marked them as such on the chord sheet at the end of the post. Without these 7ths being stated, the chords (triads) sound too static and lacking in direction.[/quote].

Hi, nice to hear from you again! I have deliberately left it as bare minor chords to encourage experimentation. I'll have to let the cat out of the bag now - the next lesson will incorporate theory about the various applications of minor scales and the final 5 modes that stem from minors. Most players when using the playalong will notice that in the intro, for example, I am playing a m7 chord but all of the minor scales can be used for improv - it depends how you use them, and that is the purpose of the exercise.

[quote]In bar 28, you have put C7 +9. This bar is usually stated in most fake books as C7+ - in other words C dominant 7 with an augmented 5th: C E [u]Gsharp[/u] Bb. If you look at the melody line, the [u]Gsharp[/u] goes through both bar 27 and 28 and then carries on into the next section as an Ab. This note is a feature of this moment in the melody, the chords changing (modulating) while the note stays the same.
You have explained that the symbol C7 +9 means a sharpened 9 (ie Dsharp). Therefore this gives us C E G Bb Dsharp. The Gsharp in the melody will not work very well against the G natural in your chord symbol.
A whole tone scale will work nicely over C7augmented (C7+). (There are of course only 2 wholetone scales.)[/quote]

It's a booby - it should be shown as C7#9. It's an american way of notating the 7#9. The scale to use with a Calt orC7#9 is the 7th mode of the melodic minor ascending. ( Check out Mark Levine!) so the scalar notes over the chord of C E Bb and Eb (C7#9) would be B C D Eb Gb Ab and Bb. There isn't a G natural in an altered chord, as I illustrated in the post, its a #5 not a natural 5. I also mentioned that there is another scale which is used if a G natural was indicated, but then it would not be an fully altered chord with both the #5 and b5. I accept your suggestion and people should try the augmented scale over a C7aug, but the leadsheet we are using is a C7#9.

I don't like fake books, there are very few that are correct. And yes, most of them do show different chords to this but I like this one personally and it helps to illustrate how tensions can change the mood of a song.

[quote]Bar 36 you state as a Bminor chord - yet the melody line is G and F. A better chord symbol at this bar would be Bo (B diminished). This is one of those rare moments where the Locrian mode can be invoked.[/quote]

Absolutely, everyone can feel free to experiment away and internalise different sounds they prefer. The stuff I input is not written in stone, which I why I included the "vanilla" lead-sheet at the end. I didn't create the chords by the way, they were written by a far better musician than me!

[quote]And finally:
Bar 38 has an F minim followed by a G minim in the melody. Therefore the Eb7 +9 chord only works under the second half of the bar, the first minim being an Eb9 chord.[/quote]

Sounds ok to me in the playalong thingy as a tension, but yes, your point is valid. I still encourage people to experiment and find out what they like best.

[quote]Sorry to be so pedantic ![/quote]

Not at all, I am glad someone is joining in!

The Major

Edited July 28, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

Rob (by the way - hope you are over your flu !)

Carrying on in pedantic mode:

Re: bar 28. This really worries me. I suppose I have my arranger's hat on here rather than the "jazz" hat.
The point I was trying to make is this:
Bar 28 has 3 main ingredients which should be made absolutely clear to the muso reading the chart. They are: C root, E (creating the majorness of the harmony), and the Gsharp in the melody. Altogether this creates an augmented triad which is at the heart of the harmony for this bar. If we add Bb, this underlines the dominant nature of the chord but it is not essential. It is just an option. Even less important is your sharp 9 (Dsharp). This is purely colouration. A very good addition but essentially just filigree or added tension.

I take issue with you over the nature of the symbol C7 +9. When written like this, you should assume that the 5th of the chord (G) is natural. For it to be sharpened, there must be an indication of that augmentation, whether it be a + sign (ideally) after the "C", (C+), or a sharp5 sign. Otherwise how can you differentiate the chord C E G Bb Dsharp (C7 sharp9) from the chord C E Gsharp Bb Dsharp (C7 augmented sharp9) ?

As I've said in previous topics, its only too easy to have anomalies creeping in to the world of the chord symbol. We need at all times to be clear as to our exact intentions when writing chord abbreviations.

I agree with you about fake books - they are always somebody's personal ideas re the harmony and should be taken with a pinch of salt. But we have to start somewhere when learning a new song so I have loads of fake books to get me started. Then of course you can start adding your own substitutions.

I find your "Weekly Lesson" very interesting Rob, as I'm always looking for new ways to help explain music theory to students.

The Major

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='553982' date='Jul 28 2009, 02:28 PM']Rob (by the way - hope you are over your flu !)

Carrying on in pedantic mode:

Re: bar 28. This really worries me. I suppose I have my arranger's hat on here rather than the "jazz" hat.
The point I was trying to make is this:
Bar 28 has 3 main ingredients which should be made absolutely clear to the muso reading the chart. They are: C root, E (creating the majorness of the harmony), and the Gsharp in the melody. Altogether this creates an augmented triad which is at the heart of the harmony for this bar. If we add Bb, this underlines the dominant nature of the chord but it is not essential. It is just an option. Even less important is your sharp 9 (Dsharp). This is purely colouration. A very good addition but essentially just filigree or added tension.

I take issue with you over the nature of the symbol C7 +9. When written like this, you should assume that the 5th of the chord (G) is natural. For it to be sharpened, there must be an indication of that augmentation, whether it be a + sign (ideally) after the "C", (C+), or a sharp5 sign. Otherwise how can you differentiate the chord C E G Bb Dsharp (C7 sharp9) from the chord C E Gsharp Bb Dsharp (C7 augmented sharp9) ?

As I've said in previous topics, its only too easy to have anomalies creeping in to the world of the chord symbol. We need at all times to be clear as to our exact intentions when writing chord abbreviations.

I agree with you about fake books - they are always somebody's personal ideas re the harmony and should be taken with a pinch of salt. But we have to start somewhere when learning a new song so I have loads of fake books to get me started. Then of course you can start adding your own substitutions.

I find your "Weekly Lesson" very interesting Rob, as I'm always looking for new ways to help explain music theory to students.

The Major[/quote]


Thanks for your input. Maybe it is a good thing that you have brought this up as people can investigate for themselves.
I have answers for your bit about differentiating between chord C E G Bb Dsharp (C7 sharp9) from the chord C E Gsharp Bb Dsharp (C7 augmented sharp9) but for now, as I suggested in the post, I want people to read the 7#9 as an alt. chord with both a #5 and a b5.

I didn't really want to go in to this yet, but if there is a natural 5 in the chords and a #9, then the odds are you would use a half step-whole step diminished scale, otherwise known as the 8 note dominant scale. C7#9 with a natural 5 would then use a scale of C Db Eb E Gb Gnatural A and Bb.

Can everyone (for now because I can't change the lead sheet) read the 7+9 chords as 7#9 because, as Major said, there is a difference between the UK and US notation.

Here is a free scale syllabus from Aebersold for everyone. I wouldn't imagine he would mind me posting the actual thing on here, but just in case, here is the link. It demonstrates some of the issues Major has brought up , and is helpful to some degree.

[url="http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/13_scale_syllabus.pdf"]http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/13_scale_syllabus.pdf[/url][url="http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/13_scale_syllabus.pdf"]Scale Syllabus[/url]

Edited July 28, 2009 by rslaing

[rslaing]

Because we have opened up the topic and are now investigating the harmonic aspects of the 7#9 (altered dominant), I am quoting some info from a great educator and musician, [url="http://www.marcsabatella.com/music/study.html"]Marc Sabatella[/url], to explain something in a much better way than I ever could.

[i][b]Altered Scale[/b]

The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale is often called the diminished whole tone scale, because it combines elements of the diminished and whole tone scales discussed later. Another name for this scale is the altered scale. To see why, recall the introductory discussion on chords. Chords are constructed by stacking thirds. Triads consisting of three notes were discussed, as were seventh chords consisting of four notes. In the key of C, G7 is the dominant seventh chord. It contains a root -G, a third -B, a fifth (D), and a seventh (F). If we add another third on top, A, we have a ninth chord G9. If we add another third, C, we have an eleventh chord G11. The C is the fourth of the scale, and is normally an avoid note. This symbol is normally used only when the fourth is explicitly required, as in a suspended chord. If we then add another third, E, we have a thirteenth chord G13. The C is normally omitted from this chord. Another third would bring us back to G.

This chord can be altered by raising or lowering individual notes by a half step. The root, third, and seventh are not normally altered, since they are in large part what define the chord. A change to any of these destroys the dominant feel of the chord. The raised eleventh has already been discussed. The other interesting alterations are to the fifth and the ninth. For a G7 chord, this means the lowered or flat fifth (Db), the raised or sharp fifth (D#), the lowered or flat ninth (Ab), and the raised or sharp ninth (A#).

[b]So now let us return to the so-called altered scale. A G altered scale can be built from Ab melodic minor, and consists of "G, Ab, Bb/A#, Cb/B, Db, Eb/D#, F". First note that this scale contains G, B, and F, the root, third, and seventh of the G7 chord. The rest of the notes, Ab, Bb, Db, and Eb, are respectively, the flatted ninth, the raised ninth, the flatted fifth, and the raised fifth. In other words, all the possible alterations in a ninth chord are included in this scale. The chord implied by this scale is often notated simply G7alt, although G7#9#5 is used as well, [size=3]as is G7#9[/size]. The b9 and b5 symbols are not normally used in this context, despite being present in the scale, because they imply the diminished scale which is discussed later.[/b]

The sound of the altered scale and the chord it implies is much more complex than any other dominant seventh chord/scale so far presented, and it is one of the most important sounds in post bop jazz. You may wish to spend more time on this scale to get used to it. Try going to a piano and playing the root, third, and seventh in your left hand while playing the altered scale, and lines based on it, in your right. You may use this scale even when the chord appears to be an ordinary dominant seventh, but you should do so cautiously in a group setting, because other members of the group may be playing mixolydian or lydian dominant sounds, and your altered scale will sound dissonant against them. This is not necessarily wrong, but you should be conscious of the effect produced.[/i]

Edited July 28, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='554269' date='Jul 28 2009, 06:33 PM']Because we have opened up the topic and are now investigating the harmonic aspects of the 7#9 (altered dominant), I am quoting some info from a great educator and musician, [url="http://www.marcsabatella.com/music/study.html"]Marc Sabatella[/url], to explain something in a much better way than I ever could.

[i][b]Altered Scale[/b]

The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale is often called the diminished whole tone scale, because it combines elements of the diminished and whole tone scales discussed later. Another name for this scale is the altered scale. To see why, recall the introductory discussion on chords. Chords are constructed by stacking thirds. Triads consisting of three notes were discussed, as were seventh chords consisting of four notes. In the key of C, G7 is the dominant seventh chord. It contains a root -G, a third -B, a fifth (D), and a seventh (F). If we add another third on top, A, we have a ninth chord G9. If we add another third, C, we have an eleventh chord G11. The C is the fourth of the scale, and is normally an avoid note. This symbol is normally used only when the fourth is explicitly required, as in a suspended chord. If we then add another third, E, we have a thirteenth chord G13. The C is normally omitted from this chord. Another third would bring us back to G.

This chord can be altered by raising or lowering individual notes by a half step. The root, third, and seventh are not normally altered, since they are in large part what define the chord. A change to any of these destroys the dominant feel of the chord. The raised eleventh has already been discussed. The other interesting alterations are to the fifth and the ninth. For a G7 chord, this means the lowered or flat fifth (Db), the raised or sharp fifth (D#), the lowered or flat ninth (Ab), and the raised or sharp ninth (A#).

[b]So now let us return to the so-called altered scale. A G altered scale can be built from Ab melodic minor, and consists of "G, Ab, Bb/A#, Cb/B, Db, Eb/D#, F". First note that this scale contains G, B, and F, the root, third, and seventh of the G7 chord. The rest of the notes, Ab, Bb, Db, and Eb, are respectively, the flatted ninth, the raised ninth, the flatted fifth, and the raised fifth. In other words, all the possible alterations in a ninth chord are included in this scale. The chord implied by this scale is often notated simply G7alt, although G7#9#5 is used as well, [size=3]as is G7#9[/size]. The b9 and b5 symbols are not normally used in this context, despite being present in the scale, because they imply the diminished scale which is discussed later.[/b]

The sound of the altered scale and the chord it implies is much more complex than any other dominant seventh chord/scale so far presented, and it is one of the most important sounds in post bop jazz. You may wish to spend more time on this scale to get used to it. Try going to a piano and playing the root, third, and seventh in your left hand while playing the altered scale, and lines based on it, in your right. You may use this scale even when the chord appears to be an ordinary dominant seventh, but you should do so cautiously in a group setting, because other members of the group may be playing mixolydian or lydian dominant sounds, and your altered scale will sound dissonant against them. This is not necessarily wrong, but you should be conscious of the effect produced.[/i][/quote]
Rob - this quote from Marc Sabatella makes great reading for the jazz muso. Thanks for posting it here. It is as you say very well written and clear.
I would just caution other readers to be aware that this type of thinking is very much from a jazz perspective. A lot of the tonal effects he refers to are very much the language of jazz.
If you are looking for music theorising of a more pop or rock nature, then this should not be taken too seriously. In any case it will make your brain hurt !

However if you have a thirst for musical knowledge and have a wide interest in the subject, then get stuck in !

I'm still concerned about the miss-naming of C7aug sharp9 versus C7 sharp 9. Again this is due to the jazz nature of the theorising books Rob has been reading. I don't think it's anything to do with US versus UK methods. Rather, its the jazz theorist versus the non jazz theorist.

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554435' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:03 PM']Rob - this quote from Marc Sabatella makes great reading for the jazz muso. Thanks for posting it here. It is as you say very well written and clear.
I would just caution other readers to be aware that this type of thinking is very much from a jazz perspective. A lot of the tonal effects he refers to are very much the language of jazz.
If you are looking for music theorising of a more pop or rock nature, then this should not be taken too seriously. In any case it will make your brain hurt !

However if you have a thirst for musical knowledge and have a wide interest in the subject, then get stuck in !

I'm still concerned about the miss-naming of C7aug sharp9 versus C7 sharp 9. Again this is due to the jazz nature of the theorising books Rob has been reading. I don't think it's anything to do with US versus UK methods. Rather, its the jazz theorist versus the non jazz theorist.[/quote]

This topic was created as a result of a thread which suggested there were a lot of people who were interested in creating walking bass lines.

Walking bass lines are very much the domain of jazz music, although in modern day (and I don't mean "pop" music) stuff we are increasingly hearing the introduction of new tonal effects and people introducing combinations of extended chords (previously only heard in jazz post 1940). There is a lot of new Rock music that actually use a lot of the material we are using in this topic -the forerunner (or at least the man who started to sound a little different to previous guitarists of the modern era) was probably Joe Satriani. At least he brought the material he plays incorporating stuff previously only used in modern jazz to the attention of a wider audience. Satriani, in addition to standard rock guitar sounds, uses all of the stuff we are talking about in these lessons, and his fans would not necessarily brand him as a jzz musician. Hendrix used extensively, the 7#9 chords we are talking about presently in his playing, previously considered as a "jazz" chord. He didn't even know what it was called until Miles Davis told him!

As far as bassists are concerned, if you want to hear the application of some of the stuff we are doing, have a look at youtube, Alain Caron, Hadrien Feraud, Jaco of course , Steve Bailey etc. I can guarantee they all studied the stuff we are covering here. The modern day Berklee incorporate all of the material we have covered to date in their syllabus. Adam Nitti incorporates most of the stuff we are reading along with modern techniques in to his playing. The list really is endless.

I haven't "studied", as has been suggested, any theory for a number of years. I do however, re-read my theory books from time to time to refresh and stimulate the grey matter. Your suggestion that the misnaming of c7#9 as c7+9 because "this is due to the jazz nature of the theorising books Rob has been reading" is just not true. There are several variations in the notation of chords between the UK and the US, just check out any of the american fake books (Chuck Sher's series is about the most accurate and notation is similar to that of the UK) - it caused me a lot of problems in formative days. Now, it is just accepted and most players know that they in US notation, a chord followed by a tension like this has to be reinterpreted because in the UK ( and as is widely accepted as being correct universally) a chord symbol should accurately reflect the basic triad or 4 note chord, and the tensions should be clearly shown afterwards so there is no confusion as to the writer/arrangers intent. In recent years, the disparity in notation has diminished and we are seeing a better standardisation.
The tune "All the things you are" that we have used in the last lesson was a transcription from a recognised US educator, who thinks that writing 7#9 as 7+9 is correct. In the UK, as soon as we see a "+" we automatically think of augmented and whole tone scales. We have to be able to be flexible in our interpretation of non UK musical language from older leadsheets.

I have never played a chord notated as C+7#9. And using tertian harmony to construct the chord this would result in the chordal notes being C E G# Bb and D# - the same as C7#9(#5).
The notated chord of C+7#9 to me (for the purpose of creating a bass line) would suggest using (depending on the key centre) the C whole note scale with an Eb? It doesn't work, too much dissonance for me. Whereas a C7#9#5 would suggest to my ear constructing a bassline or improvising using the altered (super locrian) scale of C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb. If the Chord is a C7#9 with a natural five, I would use the diminished scale starting with a half step to incorporate the natural fifth. The notes for the C7#9 natural 5 would be C Db Eb E F# G A B.

It is up to the musician to decide what he prefers and still works. Although there are some rules, if we all stuck to them, we would still be listening to music based on the drone of modal music from ancient Greece, or at best, Gregorian chants. If we used microtonal instruments, perhaps we could advance further than the restrictions that are placed upon us by the western instruments,

Here is a video of Satriani which proves that the use of modes is very much alive in modern rock. If anyone would like to check out his other stuff, he uses a lot of what was previously considered "jazz" chords and licks. But they don't sound like jazz because of the other instruments and rhythm of the genre he prefers. In the following video he is demonstrating an effective way to get the modes in to your ear. I am only using guitarists here, by the way, to demonstrate how modern players and instruments are not stuck in the old "power chord and no fifth blues scale/pentatonics only when soloing" routine.



What about another "jazz" guitarist. Wayne Krantz? Another player (10 years with Steely Dan) who incorporates a lot of the stuff we are doing in our lessons as you can see here: This vid is out and out jazz, although not traditional jazz. I only refer to it to show how a musician like Krentz can have the theory and still be flexible enough to be able to work as a session player with various artists in many genres.)



Jazz was originally the pop music of the 1920's and 30's, and very basic, often not using anything other than 3 or 4 basic triads as the chordal base. It doesn't sound anything like that now, and apart from people who want to stick to very basic pop music, the material we are covering here is definitely not just for the jazz theorist.

My personal education in music, by necessity, has been self tuition with the occasional "expert" lesson from a variety of professionals. I don't pretend to know it all, in fact I stated that I was prepared to spend a lot of time in developing this topic so I could learn more and because there is limited info available for the interested player who wants to find out more so they can improve their musicianship.

And finally, I always suggest that players experiment with information supplied and satisfy themselves with the various applications for it. But I take exception (sorry) that this course is for the jazz theorist versus the non jazz theorist. It's for anyone who wants to advance their musicianship through knowledge (which is not easily obtained from one source) and apply that knowledge to practical application on their instrument. There will be debateable matters, but I don't think that a alternative (and I agree, lending itself to possible misinterpretation) way of notating a chord symbol should be attributed to jazz or not jazz. The theory supplied is not just about jazz. If a player wants to stick to pop or basic rock, he might just pick something up that could add a distinctive flavour to his/her style and still works in basic styles. It sure beats playing pentatonics only for the rest of your life.

As with any music, it is knowing what to leave out that makes the difference, but first, you have to have the knowledge to know what not to play.

Edited July 29, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

Rob - I apologise for crossing between the two threads we are currently discussing, but the 2 vids on this post, in my mind, vindicate everything I've been saying about modes. The second one in particular where there is no hint of a modal centre. The guys use every trick in the book - I suppose you could call it multi-modal but that would be absurd ! But great playing from these guys - I love this style - very open very free soloing over a simple constant root.
And Joe Satriani seems to imply that he will similarly use multiple modes in one solo - thereby negating the idea that the music is modal (in the historic sense of the word).
As usual with our discussions, we actually agree on most things, but it is the interpretation of the terminology used which causes us to differ.
I'm sorry I chose to refer to the jazz theorist as opposed to the non jazz theorist. This was all I could think of at the time to describe why I thought there was a differing way to anotate chord symbols - ie our discussion re the + sign (augmented triads etc). My formative years were spent playing in Mecca bands (dance hall bands) and the way the arrangers wrote chord symbols then has always been in my mind "right" because thats how I first learnt it. Actually at that time the sharp9 chord was always referred to as b10 (ie CEGBbEb). I haven't seen it referred to in this way for quite some time - that's musical progress I suppose !

Anyway, I realize this thread is about walking bass lines, and I personally take a more harmonic approach to this rather than scale based ie I use the basic notes of the chord sequence as my starting point and think in terms of substitute chords for the in between notes. Maybe this needs further discussion !??

The Major

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554906' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:21 AM']Rob - I apologise for crossing between the two threads we are currently discussing, but the 2 vids on this post, in my mind, vindicate everything I've been saying about modes. The second one in particular where there is no hint of a modal centre. The guys use every trick in the book - I suppose you could call it multi-modal but that would be absurd ! But great playing from these guys - I love this style - very open very free soloing over a simple constant root.
And Joe Satriani seems to imply that he will similarly use multiple modes in one solo - thereby negating the idea that the music is modal (in the historic sense of the word).
As usual with our discussions, we actually agree on most things, but it is the interpretation of the terminology used which causes us to differ.
I'm sorry I chose to refer to the jazz theorist as opposed to the non jazz theorist. This was all I could think of at the time to describe why I thought there was a differing way to anotate chord symbols - ie our discussion re the + sign (augmented triads etc). My formative years were spent playing in Mecca bands (dance hall bands) and the way the arrangers wrote chord symbols then has always been in my mind "right" because thats how I first learnt it. Actually at that time the sharp9 chord was always referred to as b10 (ie CEGBbEb). I haven't seen it referred to in this way for quite some time - that's musical progress I suppose !

Anyway, I realize this thread is about walking bass lines, and I personally take a more harmonic approach to this rather than scale based ie I use the basic notes of the chord sequence as my starting point and think in terms of substitute chords for the in between notes. Maybe this needs further discussion !??

The Major[/quote]

Great........it would be fantastic if someone would add another track to the topic, perhaps as you mention, substitute chords from a harmonic viewpoint. It's not something that most bass players get involved with while they are "holding down the bottom end" - as they say, but from a selfish point of view, I want to know more to extend my own arranging ability.

These are probably early days in the weekly lesson's potential, and no doubt it can be built in to a veritable encyclopedia for musicians who want to really advance their potential. I hope so anyway.

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554906' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:21 AM']Rob - I apologise for crossing between the two threads we are currently discussing, but the 2 vids on this post, in my mind, vindicate everything I've been saying about modes. The second one in particular where there is no hint of a modal centre. The guys use every trick in the book - I suppose you could call it multi-modal but that would be absurd ! But great playing from these guys - I love this style - very open very free soloing over a simple constant root.
And Joe Satriani seems to imply that he will similarly use multiple modes in one solo - thereby negating the idea that the music is modal (in the historic sense of the word).
The Major[/quote]

Again I refer back to an earlier comment I made. I appreciate that "modal music" as it is thought of today, is not modal music in the true sense of the word.
I.E. as it was in 10000 b.c. (I'm kidding). It is not true modal music in the historical sense of the word.

Then again, the english language is not the same as it was 1000 or even a hundred years ago.

Maybe as I suggested, we should differentiate by calling it "new" modal, so as to accept the definition of modern day players, and to differentiate it from tonal music.

What we hear these days is a lot modal scales being used, not necessarily over modal songs or pieces of music.

The whole point of the vids was not to demonstrate anything to directly with modal music.

They were to demonstrate how some of the top musicians, although demonstrating superb levels of skill and technique, have to ability to drop back in to fairly vanilla commercial stuff if needs be, and still fit in with their playing. It is because they have extensive knowledge that they know what NOT to play when making a buck in other genres.