Accugroove still favourable?

[Dood]

Having said 'ta ta' to my sum total of cabinets, I decided to have a bit of a mooch around the wonderful world of backline.

Now in my thought processes I still keep coming back to the same idea. I'm using my line 6 / outboard to produce the sounds of pretty much any amp/cab combination I want, which is great for flexibility - so when it comes to backline, all I really need is a glorified quality PA / studio monitor behind me.

It reminded me that I used to own one of the wee little Accugroove cabs and liked it, but it wasn't really 'right' at the time. So what of the larger beasts, 'El Whappo' and 'Whappo Jr'.. I reckon they fell out of favour a bit after the 'Accu-Switch' debarckle - but are they still standing strong as a decent back line cabinet? - Obviously with a view to being able to reproduce a 'faithful' version of what is being sent to them, full range and decent bottom end?


I have a feeling this thread will suffer the tumbleweed effect and thus alternative ideas are welcome. I'm waiting to have a play with the active cabs 'Vector Pro' by ISP Technologies and would LOVE to get hold of a Forge Bass cab to play with too - but I'm seeing Accu' prices have dropped now the current fads are taking over ;o)

[molan]

I know this won't help much but I just love the idea of having an 'El Whappo' cab on stage

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

A-G getting caught with their pants down over the Accu-Switch was the tip of the iceberg. It brought to light that, while better engineered than the average bass cab, they aren't what they're cracked up to be, and certainly not worth the price of admission. On you side of the pond Alex's offerings are a far better option for a lot less Sterling.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='dood' post='558139' date='Aug 1 2009, 11:03 PM']Having said 'ta ta' to my sum total of cabinets, I decided to have a bit of a mooch around the wonderful world of backline.

Now in my thought processes I still keep coming back to the same idea. I'm using my line 6 / outboard to produce the sounds of pretty much any amp/cab combination I want, which is great for flexibility - so when it comes to backline, all I really need is a glorified quality PA / studio monitor behind me.[/quote]

I played through a JBL EON 15 powered cab recently with my computer hooked up to it using just Guitar Rig 3 LE and was rather impressed to say the least. They are bi-amped and only weigh 48lbs [url="http://www.starlight-online.com/audio/jbl/eon.htm"]Info...[/url]
You can pick up single units on ebay for under £200.00 . They are on my "to buy" list.

[AxelF]

I run a LMII through an Accugroove Tri 112 and absolutely love it. Very tight bottom end and smooth throughout the whole frequency range (4 string). Weight was a major factor for me when I was looking for a cab and I tried the usual list of 1x12s and smaller cabs along with Schroeder before I stumbled across an Accugroove cab which just blew me away. I discovered them about 2 years ago, so after the fuss about the Accu-switch, but from a purely musical point of view I would definately recommend the 112 to anyone. You said you've noticed prices coming down now - where have you seen that? I'd love to add a second for larger gigs, but the prices seem to have shot right up from where they were a couple of years ago...

[Dood]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='558181' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:21 AM']A-G getting caught with their pants down over the Accu-Switch was the tip of the iceberg. It brought to light that, while better engineered than the average bass cab, [i]they aren't what they're cracked up to be [/i] , and certainly not worth the price of admission. On you side of the pond Alex's offerings are a far better option for a lot less Sterling.[/quote]


Yes, I am interested in giving one of Alex's monsters a good once over! - I'm interested in your comments. I have seen that it has been suggested the cab volume for the 15" isn't big enough in the 'El Whappo' but what other 'issues' have been noted with the design? Out of interest, has anyone published any testing to support findings? Really, I'm just interested, being everso slightly geeky. There seems to be a lot of support for the cabs, I'm certainly thinking they are no worse than 90% of cabs on the market? - I'd like to know !

[alexclaber]

I think the main issue with the El Whappo is that they claim it's an 'audiophile on steroids' cab and used to state that it was a 4-way design, splitting your tone four ways and sending each part to a driver that was dedicated to that frequency range. But in reality it's a fullrange 15", a fullrange 12", a first order highpassed 6" and a couple of first order highpassed dome tweeters. Sounds nice but quite far from audiophile!

Alex

[Dood]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='559166' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:11 PM']I think the main issue with the El Whappo is that they claim it's an 'audiophile on steroids' cab and used to state that it was a 4-way design, splitting your tone four ways and sending each part to a driver that was dedicated to that frequency range. But in reality it's a fullrange 15", a fullrange 12", a first order highpassed 6" and a couple of first order highpassed dome tweeters. Sounds nice but quite far from audiophile!

Alex[/quote]


Cheers Alex! That was exactly what I wanted to hear.. very useful - I was aware that the TRI210L used a 1st Order for the tweeters but never got round to finding out what the situation was with the other Accugroove cabs. - Well - rather, these kinda details aren't so forthcoming.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dood' post='559156' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:03 AM']Yes, I am interested in giving one of Alex's monsters a good once over! - I'm interested in your comments. I have seen that it has been suggested the cab volume for the 15" isn't big enough in the 'El Whappo' but what other 'issues' have been noted with the design? Out of interest, has anyone published any testing to support findings? Really, I'm just interested, being everso slightly geeky. There seems to be a lot of support for the cabs, I'm certainly thinking they are no worse than 90% of cabs on the market? - I'd like to know ![/quote]
Noted technical deficiencies from various sources include, but are not limited to, poor crossover design, no crossovers at all, poor cabinet damping, tweeters horizontally mounted, and claimed response that verges on the ridiculous. No, let me amend that, they are ridiculous. The AccuSwitch debacle could only happen if either the designers at A-G lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of acoustical engineering or the company embraces fraudulent marketing practices, neither option being particularlry palatable.

A-G does for the most part sound better than 90% of the cabs on that market, but frankly, that's not a very high bar to clear. As for testing, there are no sources that test bass cabs using the standards laid forth by the Audio Engineering Society, ie., measured half-space anechoic on-axis and off-axis.

There are cabs out there which are far better engineered at a much lower cost. Barefaced is one of them.

[davidmpires]

As good as they sound which they do. One can have better options for half the cash.

Even if you were to buy a Big One + Compact, it will still be cheaper.

Or maybe an Epifani.

Or even Acme if you are not soo weight concerned. I can see two Acme B2, working very well indeed.

[rmorris]

I'm obviously late to hear about the 'AccuSwitch Debacle" (sp?)
Would anybody be so kind as to post a link or whatever so I can catch up on that.
Sounds like marketing hype over technical reality ? (surely not :-)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='rmorris' post='559640' date='Aug 3 2009, 03:54 PM']I'm obviously late to hear about the 'AccuSwitch Debacle" (sp?)
Would anybody be so kind as to post a link or whatever so I can catch up on that.
Sounds like marketing hype over technical reality ? (surely not :-)[/quote]It claimed to allow switching from 8 to 4 ohm impedance. It consisted of a capacitor, switched in and out of series with one woofer of a parallel pair. When in circuit a DCR measurement would be twice that of when it was bypassed, since the capacitor wouldn't pass DC to the second driver. When an actual impedance sweep was done there was no difference, of course. There are only two possibilities for the origin of the circuit. The first is that the A-G engineering staff did not know the difference between DC resistance and AC impedance. The second is that they knew and tried to pull a fast one. Neither explanation is excusable. A-G never came up with a plausible explanation, the switch unceremoniously disappeared from their cabs and literature. They continue to make SPL claims that defy the laws of physics in this universe and at least two more that we know of.

[elros]

I've used a pair of AccuGroove Tri-112L speakers along with an Eden WT800 amp for about two years of medium-size gigs. (mostly venues seating anywhere from 200 to 600).
I won't comment on wether their specs are met or ridiculous, or wether the price is obnoxious, and I won't even mention the **********.

They sound great, and that's all that matters for me. I'd like more bottom on my low F# string, but for my normal 6-string range these did a great job.
Alas, I had to sell that rig this past spring because I needed the money to pay for my wedding.
Once I get some cash I'll definetly consider an AccuGroove rig again. But I'll probably look around on the used marked, there's a lot of money to be saved that way.

[rmorris]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='559679' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:30 PM']It claimed to allow switching from 8 to 4 ohm impedance. It consisted of a capacitor, switched in and out of series with one woofer of a parallel pair. When in circuit a DCR measurement would be twice that of when it was bypassed, since the capacitor wouldn't pass DC to the second driver. When an actual impedance sweep was done there was no difference, of course. There are only two possibilities for the origin of the circuit. The first is that the A-G engineering staff did not know the difference between DC resistance and AC impedance. The second is that they knew and tried to pull a fast one. Neither explanation is excusable. A-G never came up with a plausible explanation, the switch unceremoniously disappeared from their cabs and literature. They continue to make SPL claims that defy the laws of physics in this universe and at least two more that we know of. [/quote]

thanks for the comprehensive background.

[E sharp]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='559679' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:30 PM']It claimed to allow switching from 8 to 4 ohm impedance. It consisted of a capacitor, switched in and out of series with one woofer of a parallel pair. When in circuit a DCR measurement would be twice that of when it was bypassed, since the capacitor wouldn't pass DC to the second driver. When an actual impedance sweep was done there was no difference, of course. There are only two possibilities for the origin of the circuit. The first is that the A-G engineering staff did not know the difference between DC resistance and AC impedance. The second is that they knew and tried to pull a fast one. Neither explanation is excusable. A-G never came up with a plausible explanation, the switch unceremoniously disappeared from their cabs and literature. They continue to make SPL claims that defy the laws of physics in this universe and at least two more that we know of. [/quote]
I seem to remember a couple of their cabs being reviewed in Bass Player a few years ago . They picked up on the switch issue (the technicals are a bit beyond me , and I defer to Bill and Alex on this) and Accugroove's reply was a bit snotty . Haven't Epifani come up with a similar silly switch recently ?

[~tl]

[quote name='E sharp' post='563086' date='Aug 7 2009, 09:29 PM']I seem to remember a couple of their cabs being reviewed in Bass Player a few years ago . They picked up on the switch issue (the technicals are a bit beyond me , and I defer to Bill and Alex on this) and Accugroove's reply was a bit snotty . Haven't Epifani come up with a similar silly switch recently ?[/quote]
Their cabs have dual coils in the speakers, so they can [i]actually[/i] be switched from 4Ω to 8Ω. The benefits of such and ability, aside from as a marketing ploy, are minimal though...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='E sharp' post='563086' date='Aug 7 2009, 04:29 PM']I seem to remember a couple of their cabs being reviewed in Bass Player a few years ago . They picked up on the switch issue (the technicals are a bit beyond me , and I defer to Bill and Alex on this) and Accugroove's reply was a bit snotty . Haven't Epifani come up with a similar silly switch recently ?[/quote]
There was a thread on TalkBass exposing the AccuSwitch, it probably set a record there for length. The initial response by A-G was 'we applied for a patent, and won't reveal the specifics until it's granted', which is piffel, since patent protection is retro-active to the date of the application. When the switch's circuitry was revealed and shown to be worthless A-G 'lawyered up' and wasn't heard from on the subject again.

[steve-soar]

I had a pair of Tri 112s, I'm glad I made my money back when I sold them. Presenting the bass world with a 2 way design claiming to be a 4 way, or 3 way in my case, is a classic piece of disinformation, pandering to the OCD traits of modern bassists.
Reasonabley made cabs, good components, low SPL.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='558192' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:34 AM']I played through a JBL EON 15 powered cab recently with my computer hooked up to it using just Guitar Rig 3 LE and was rather impressed to say the least. They are bi-amped and only weigh 48lbs [url="http://www.starlight-online.com/audio/jbl/eon.htm"]Info...[/url]
You can pick up single units on ebay for under £200.00 . They are on my "to buy" list.[/quote]
+1 for active wedge monitors on small stages so long as they don't overheat because of pumping out low end. I used one at our New Years gig soundcheck and would have played through it happily all night but it was a Mackie so I steered clear of it for the actual gig. Steve Lawson's Accugroove cabs sounded boxy to me when he tried to use them as a PA.

[lee650]

Not much love for the groove!!!
I have two they are reasonably lightweight and sound great ( although yes SPL,S are greatly overestimated) always struggled with loud rock gigs, have no plans to sell them, good job by the sound of things, i might get ten bob and a pickled egg!!!, would love to try the barefaced cabs and the new epifani ones!!! i do still miss m old EBS prline 4x10 though it was awesome, but heavy!!!
thanks for the very interesting info - lee

[The Funk]

Can't help on the AccuGroove front but can add a basic comparison between Acme Low B2s and the Barefaced Compact (as I own both).

The Acmes are designed to be as flat as possible while the Barefaced is designed to be as loud as possible. Both sound superb with my Aguilar DB680/Eden WT1000 but if you're more concerned about faithful reproduction of sound, the Acmes might be better suited to you.

I have a funny feeling though that you're going to go through every type of bass rig there is before finding someone to build you something from scratch.

[Dood]

[quote name='The Funk' post='563829' date='Aug 8 2009, 10:06 PM']Can't help on the AccuGroove front but can add a basic comparison between Acme Low B2s and the Barefaced Compact (as I own both).

The Acmes are designed to be as flat as possible while the Barefaced is designed to be as loud as possible. Both sound superb with my Aguilar DB680/Eden WT1000 but if you're more concerned about faithful reproduction of sound, the Acmes might be better suited to you.[/quote]

Ahh Thanks for the response! ;o) That's interesting and I am certainly open to hearing more stuff like this! Yes, indeed it is wanting a faithful reproduction of what is going in to the cabs, that is very true. A PA response for sure.

I've been having two trains of thoughts recently and found that neither are a particularly easy shortcut to happiness. I either carry on this search for a PA like backline that I will 'model' on to with my current kit - which for this band is a far better idea - OR I cut back to finding a particular tone that works well in the band context and helps to give us more of a signature.. a one trick pony type set up. Frankly, I am far more enamoured with the former of the two plans - especially if said backline could be multi-functional, say as a monitor or a PA type thing.

[quote]I have a funny feeling though that you're going to go through every type of bass rig there is before finding someone to build you something from scratch.[/quote]

That my friend has crossed my mind a few times and I have been gathering the necessary information! Like my basses, everything before Shuker has been a compromise.. I have been 'nearly happy' with everything I have owned I think.. and some amazing pieces of kit too - but I find my tastes change quickly (poor wallet) and I crave the next tone in my head.

An uncoloured backline, like a blank canvas that I can paint my tones on to, would be nothing short of a miracle! - Especially if it was in one nice neat (large) box that I could plug my outboard in to and know that I had headroom and more than enough volume to take on any situation that would require it.

I had a great visit to Bass Merchant yesterday thinking that I was gonna buy a new rig - and found some great gear - but interestingly it has helped my cement my ideas about what I need, as opposed to having an enormous GAS attack in a giant toy shop.

That aside, I could have quite easily have bought a TC rebel head or GK MB2 500 yesterday ! SOOOOO NICE!

[Platypus]

[quote name='dood' post='563836' date='Aug 8 2009, 10:20 PM']I had a great visit to Bass Merchant yesterday thinking that I was gonna buy a new rig - and found some great gear - but interestingly it has helped my cement my ideas about what I need, as opposed to having an enormous GAS attack in a giant toy shop.

That aside, I could have quite easily have bought a TC rebel head or GK MB2 500 yesterday ! SOOOOO NICE![/quote]

Did you try the Tecamp Puma 1000 head they have there?

[Dood]

[quote name='Platypus' post='563839' date='Aug 8 2009, 10:24 PM']Did you try the Tecamp Puma 1000 head they have there?[/quote]


I'd seen it when I arrived, but we got so engrossed with trying stuff out, sadly I only remembered it when I left at what was about 7pm I think!

So, next time I will defintely give it a go!

[The Funk]

Well, if a one-box, flat-response solution is what you're after then one of Alex's Barefaced cabs featuring a mid-range driver might be the solution. I only have a single full-range driver in my Compact so I can't comment on The Big One and how flat its response is. An advantage of contacting Alex is that you could maybe go semi-custom, customising one of his existing models.

The Acmes would naturally go lower than a Barefaced but a B2 on its own probably wouldn't be enough for some gigs.