Lightweight Rig.

[Mr.T]

I have just got in from a gig at a venue I have played many times.

My sound was absolute crap.... and I am p*ssed off.... Not something that I do very often!

It dawned on me when driving home, how much money I have spent on gear since deciding to go 'lightweight' at the end of last year.

When I used Trace gear, which I did for 20 years, I rarely had to do much more than a little tweak here and there.
For the past 7 or 8 months, I seem to have done nothing but twist EQ controls.... trying to get a decent sound.

Am I alone in this?
Do I have to go back to a heavy rig to get a sound that is consistant from week to week?

Has anyone else had a similar journey?

[Delberthot]

I really enjoy having my Shuttle 6 / Schroeder 1212L combination but being perfectly honest, I would prefer to have my GK 700RB II back.

It is a compromise that i make to save my back.

Probably the most powerful, deepest rig I ever had was my Trace 7210 2x10" combo with a 1048H 4x10" but the weight of it all, plus the band getting a full PA system meant getting something smaller.

I then bought a GK 800RB which was a fantastic amp and i sold it in a fit of stupidity after a really loud gig using a Trace 1153 cab that i just couldn't hear myself. Come to think about it, i sold everything and started again.

If I could have any rig, without weight being a consideration, it would be a GK head with either a 1084H or 1524 Trace cab but having something that i can lift easily outweighs the weight and bulk of a big rig.

It took me a long time to get a good sound through the Shuttle. The GK was run completely flat with the boost quite high and it never deviated from that point ever whereas, like you, I find myself having to adjust my sound at most gigs even though I'm using the same cab as I used with the GK head.

I may very well be selling the shuttle after tonight's gig and getting either another 700 RB II or a 1001.

[BarnacleBob]

I am old school on this I have always believed in that u need to really shift air and lots of it!!!!
I dont do live anymore and potter about with a JP briefcase combo, which has a great graphic and can be quite loud, but recently dragged out me old Peavey Databass - 450W digital power and 15" spkr.
I have a couple of basses I had only ever heard thru the Briefcase and the difference using them thru something far bigger
was amazing.

git urself a 2 x18 and a couple of chumps to carry it!


BB

Edited August 2, 2009 by BarnacleBob

[lozbass]

I have to agree with much of what I read above. I don't gig anymore so weight isn't an issue for me (I also have a lightweight Epi and a very heavyweight Agi so I hope my views aren't coloured by my own gear). However, when I see bands today, it's always the bassplayers with the heavyweight gear that have the best tone (to my ears). I hear a fair amount of Markbass lightweight gear - I know this is a big favourite on here and I think it sounds great at low volumes - at gigs and high volume though, I've almost invariably found it to be lifeless and characterless. Without doubt the best sound I've heard in recent weeks was an old, very heavy, Trace Elliot combo - full, tight bottom-end, loud but controlled, clear and ultra-poky - kind of dangerous and intimidating (not everybody's choice of course). I've regretted selling my Series 6 AH200 almost since the day it went.

[warwickhunt]

Hmmm...

I remember following your (and others) trials and tribulations when searching for the ultimate affordable, transportable, giggable, lightweight rig and you arrive at the same conclusion. In the last couple of years I chased my tail, with among others; Markbass SA450 & LMK amps; EBS & Tech Soundsystems cabs (all neo) and what am I using? Thunderfunk and a pair of Aggie 1x12's, very traditional, very old school but I am happy!

I'm not criticising 'all' of the lightweight gear out there but I just couldn't get the whump out of any of the stuff that I had. I'd still like to find a cab or cabs that will bridge that tone/weight divide but time will tell.

Edited August 2, 2009 by warwickhunt

[Gunsfreddy2003]

I think that we have all gone through this scenario over recent years!

I had a couple of years away from music and when I came back to playing the bass again the whole amp situation had changed completely and there were suddenly loads of new manufacturers that I had never heard before and everyone was talking about neo cabs and bass rigs that you could carry around with your little finger! At that time I still had trace elliott GP12SMX pre-amp, power amp and 2x10 and 1x15 cabs so lightweight and mobile I was not.

I never had an issue with my "existing sound" but did not enjoy lugging the gear around anymore so decided to go for it and change all the gear. Like you I went through everything, SWR, EBS and a few big name others but just kept coming away from rehearsals having spent more time knob twiddling and bent down in front of my cab trying to pin point exactly what is was that I hated about my sound now rather than actually enjoying the music that we were making!

My solution to the problem was to go to a shop that had nearly everything that I had read or heard bass players talking about and try them out for myself. A day in London was required and after visiting the Bass Centre and then The Bass Gallery I had been able to try just about every combination of gear that I wanted to. Has to be said here that the Bass Gallery were by far the most helpful and poor Martin was dragging out cabs and heads from everywhere. All the Bass Centre wanted to do was flog me Mark Bass gear.

To get to the point I opted at that point to go for an Aguilar AG500SC and an Epifani UL210 which together on the day just beat the hell out of everything that I heard and that is why I bought it. To my ear most neo cabs are a bit soul-less and empty sounding but the Epi cab has the depth that I used to get from my bigger/heavier cabs but weighs nothing. I also found that 2x12 cabs just sounded muddy and shapeless. Again these are just my opinions and experiences other have raved about EBS 2x12's but I would never use one.

Having got to this point I have resisted most temptations and stuck with my lightweight set up and been really happy with it. Of course I still read reviews in BGM or comments on here and get some GAS but I think that is normal. I has been thinking a lot recently about the Mark Bass stuff again as they seem quite inventive with their product range but I played a festival on Friday night and the supplied back line was a Mark Bass combo and I just could not get "my sound" out of it. With my current set up I have the amp EQ flat and I think that honestly most of my sound is really coming from my GB bass but having tried that on Friday through the Mark Bass I now know that that is not the case! The GB, Aggie head and Epi cab all work together and give me a sound that I love and that enables me to enjoy the music that I am making!

Once you get to this stage you can then start worrying about your effects pedals - anyone know a good envelope filter

Hope that might help you a bit!

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558231' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:26 AM']I have just got in from a gig at a venue I have played many times.

My sound was absolute crap.... and I am p*ssed off.... Not something that I do very often!

It dawned on me when driving home, how much money I have spent on gear since deciding to go 'lightweight' at the end of last year.

When I used Trace gear, which I did for 20 years, I rarely had to do much more than a little tweak here and there.
For the past 7 or 8 months, I seem to have done nothing but twist EQ controls.... trying to get a decent sound.

Am I alone in this?
Do I have to go back to a heavy rig to get a sound that is consistant from week to week?

Has anyone else had a similar journey?[/quote]

[charic]

Ive been having gas for a new rig myself...
Then i realised ive only bin playing thru my practice setup lately! Plugged in my main amp and my gf was asking me whats wrong! I couldnt stop grinning! Ive been song writing since!

[alexclaber]

What's crap about your sound? Just saying it's crap doesn't tell us anything!

I know my cabs can flatten the old Trace Elliots you used to use so if you're not getting the sound you want it's because you're wanting the colouration and distortion your old TE cabs had. One Compact can move almost as much air without distortion as an old TE 2x15" so your problem has to be that you want that distortion. You're probably used to having the speaker distortion thicken up the sound of your bass in the midrange and less the depth in the lows. So why don't I use cabs that give that distortion? Because not everyone wants that and it limits how loud they can go. So if you want that sound you need to add a similar overdrive earlier in the signal chain, with something like a valve preamp or a suitable pedal.

Generally if you're having to do a lot of EQ fiddling then you're doing something wrong. With a low distortion speaker cab the tone needs to come from your bass and how you play it, plus whatever happens before the power amp stage of your amp. EQ doesn't do as much to change your tone as you might think - it only cuts and boosts frequencies, it doesn't add the kind of colouration that, for instance, a lightly overdriven speaker can.

I agree that tiny rigs can't have the sound of big rigs - but big lightweight rigs can. But if you want the sound of a big old rig with low excursion speakers with lots of colouration due to high distortion and a lack of internal cab damping, then you'll either need to fake those sonic deficiencies or you need to rethink your tone ideas.

Tone starts at your hands but if you've been playing the same rig for 20 years and that rig added a ton of colouration, then remove that rig and you're going to have to invest time and effort into understanding your tone.

Alex

Edited August 2, 2009 by alexclaber

[chris_b]

I agree with Alex. The problem is that you're trying to make your new rig sound like your old one, and it won't. Maybe you haven't found the right neo rig yet but you'll have to accept that all neo cabs will sound clear, defined and punchy.

My Thunderfunk is magic with any cab and I'm currently settled on Epifani and Bergantino cabs. They sound nothing like my Mesa Boogie stack and I've happily moved on and am really enjoying the change.

Could you find an excuse to get up to the SE Bass Bash in October?

Edited August 2, 2009 by chris_b

[Raslee]

I have to say i found my Jeff Berlin Markbass 15" +15" ext cab. a bit of a one trick pony for me. Its been superbly great for the majority reggae that i play but i have been doing a lot of funky stuff with another band lately (weekly/festival gigging) and i am struggling to get the sound i like... although i do very much appreciate the lightness of this rig.

As MrT knows, I also have an Eden WT800A and it is a great sounding amp but it has been far too temperamental to consider to gig lately and it sadly seems to be getting worse so have retired to bedroom use only . I used to gig the Eden regularly with a 6x10 but theres no way I'm going back to lugging that kind of weight again (i interestingly noticed over a period of 6 months how all my band mates suddenly had physical & mental health issues when it came to carrying the 6x10 speaker up flights of stairs or across muddy festival fields)...but admittedly the sound was sweet as with that Eden/Warwick 6x10 rig and i only ever dialed in the enhance knob for instant sounds.

With my current Markbass rig I've found after much e.q. tweaking the best way to cut through my other bands funky/rocky stuff is to cut the bass frequencies rather than add treble for more top end, its probably seems a no brainer using 2x15" but alas it seems to do the trick (ish) but I'm still not overly happy with my sound - maybe i need a 2x10 me thinks-but skint as usual

After last nights gig I'm also beginning to wonder if my old Jazz PU's were better than the passive Bartolini's that i currently use...also I'm very disillusioned by the passive Varitone that i have added - may just go back to the simple pots again! I too was a bit piss'd off after the gig soundwise but i think i got manflu too so maybe its that, time of the month, had to drive and couldn't drink etc etc blah blah - Anyone got the Samaritans hotline number....

[alexclaber]

My gut feeling with the Mr T problem is it's all about the midrange - if the Nemesis sounds like other Eden amps then it's fat and warm, nothing like the more aggressive punch of a TE. On the modern lightweight-ish amp front I'd be looking at GK, Genz Benz, and Thunderfunk as good places to get similar punch.

Alex

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='558238' date='Aug 2 2009, 03:08 AM']I really enjoy having my Shuttle 6 / Schroeder 1212L combination but being perfectly honest, I would prefer to have my GK 700RB II back.[/quote]
I don't think my Shuttle + EBS rig is deficient tonally in any way, but I did like the GK RB700 combo I had and if they made them in some kind of super light format then I'd have one in a heartbeat. However, given its taken GK about 18 years since the SWR SM400 to release a hybrid head onto the market, I'm not going to be holding my breath.

[thisnameistaken]

I'm really happy with my 1212L, but I never used huge amounts of bass in my sound in the first place (mostly low mid instead) so I suppose if it is missing some bottom end I'm not going to notice.

I can imagine that lightweight cabs aren't for everybody though.

[Cat Burrito]

This thread inspried me to talk with my roadcrew about lugging gear... hell, who am I kidding? I think life is about compromise to an extent. I remember when I was at one of my bass playing busiest periods during the late 1990s and I lived in a top floor flat with no lift. I'd regularly cart all my Peavey gear up 6 flights of stairs. Now it's about portability. I have a couple of combo amps that sound perfectly serviceable. The Ampeg is for small to medium gigs and I have a Roland DB700 for the big shows. The reality is though if I played with a roadcrew and big venues I'd have some massive Ampeg SVT setup. That's not the reality though, so I don't.

[plumbob]

I've been looking at getting another amp recently , and missed out on a Hartke LH1000 the other day , but last night did a gig in an upstairs room .

You know what's coming don't you , struggled with trying to get the 4x10 up the very small stairs etc etc.

So I did come away thinking perhaps I need another set up with a small head and a 2x12 cab.

Trouble is , although i have no doubt I could achieve a very nice stand alone sound with this set up ,but there is no way of knowing whether it would work in a real world situation with a band in full flight unless you have a very understanding shop owner who would let you try it out at a gig.

Is doesn't matter that it was a small venue , when you have a drummer on a mission , you have to keep up !

So is there a set up that ticks all the boxes , I'd like to know?

[JackLondon]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='558382' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:44 AM']My gut feeling with the Mr T problem is it's all about the midrange - if the Nemesis sounds like other Eden amps then it's fat and warm, nothing like the more aggressive punch of a TE. On the modern lightweight-ish amp front I'd be looking at GK, Genz Benz, and Thunderfunk as good places to get similar punch.

Alex[/quote]

+100000000000

GK 1001RBII + Barefaced Compact = :brow:

When I practice I find the opposite to Mr.T . Wherever there's a TE amp I know I will not be able to get my sound right. The only thing they do for me is just sound like mud with loads of boom to it but don't cut through the mix nat all IMHO. We sometimes use places that have Ashdown gear and that sometimes sounds as it should but I find that the bass has to be cut to minimum and treble and mids have to be almost on maximum to get my sound. When I'm doing gigs I don't have to tweak anything really as I can always hear myself loudly and the sound of my rig is sweeeeet. Still remember Bernie the soundman saying '' There's to much bass coming out from that rig''

[plumbob]

[quote name='JackLondon' post='558420' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:15 PM']+100000000000

GK 1001RBII + Barefaced Compact = :brow:

When I practice I find the opposite to Mr.T . Wherever there's a TE amp I know I will not be able to get my sound right. The only thing they do for me is just sound like mud with loads of boom to it but don't cut through the mix nat all IMHO. We sometimes use places that have Ashdown gear and that sometimes sounds as it should but I find that the bass has to be cut to minimum and treble and mids have to be almost on maximum to get my sound. When I'm doing gigs I don't have to tweak anything really as I can always hear myself loudly and the sound of my rig is sweeeeet. Still remember Bernie the soundman saying '' There's to much bass coming out from that rig'' [/quote]



Interesting !

Just found this on the Barfaced Compact site

" The current price is £400 and we can ship to anywhere in the mainland UK for £25. As these cabs are designed for gigging the best way to know if these cabs are for you is to take them on a gig! We are thus offering a 14 day trial period for you to find out if this is your ultimate bass speaker solution. Return the cab undamaged to receive a full refund of both the £400 purchase price and the £25 outbound postage and packing. "


Umm scratches chin in deep thought

[lemmywinks]

Have you tried lighter cabs that don't have neo speakers in? My Schroeder just has standard paper cones and it does the old-school rig sound down to a tee. Still pretty small and lightweight too


[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='558388' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:51 AM']....... However, given its taken GK about 18 years since the [b]SWR SM400[/b] to release a hybrid head onto the market, I'm not going to be holding my breath.[/quote]

Hopefully getting one of these in the next few days, fired it up yesterday and it sounded incredible!

[bythesea]

[quote name='plumbob' post='558433' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:36 PM']Interesting !

Just found this on the Barfaced Compact site

" The current price is £400 and we can ship to anywhere in the mainland UK for £25. As these cabs are designed for gigging the best way to know if these cabs are for you is to take them on a gig! We are thus offering a 14 day trial period for you to find out if this is your ultimate bass speaker solution. Return the cab undamaged to receive a full refund of both the £400 purchase price and the £25 outbound postage and packing. "


Umm scratches chin in deep thought [/quote]
Alex is also putting one of his cabs "on tour" for people to try out - have a look in his sub-forum for the latest itinerary

[Monz]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558231' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:26 AM']I have just got in from a gig at a venue I have played many times.

My sound was absolute crap.... and I am p*ssed off.... Not something that I do very often!

It dawned on me when driving home, how much money I have spent on gear since deciding to go 'lightweight' at the end of last year.

When I used Trace gear, which I did for 20 years, I rarely had to do much more than a little tweak here and there.
For the past 7 or 8 months, I seem to have done nothing but twist EQ controls.... trying to get a decent sound.

Am I alone in this?
Do I have to go back to a heavy rig to get a sound that is consistant from week to week?

Has anyone else had a similar journey?[/quote]

Amen brother...

I have made the same journey allbeit over a much shorter period of time and in reverse. I went for the Lightweight solution from the off with Markbass and loved it till I tried a few Valve amps and now I will just live with the weight issues because the tone is just there, maybe have to back the bass off or up the mids sometimes to match the room but I do that on the bass not the amp. The amp just sits there doing it's thing. With the markbass I was always twiddling and trying to stop booming or trying to get a nice fat tone and God help me if I dared to switch some effects on in the chain.... back to twiddling to compensate

[Musicman20]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='558261' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:09 AM']Hmmm...

I remember following your (and others) trials and tribulations when searching for the ultimate affordable, transportable, giggable, lightweight rig and you arrive at the same conclusion. In the last couple of years I chased my tail, with among others; Markbass SA450 & LMK amps; EBS & Tech Soundsystems cabs (all neo) and what am I using? Thunderfunk and a pair of Aggie 1x12's, very traditional, very old school but I am happy!

I'm not criticising 'all' of the lightweight gear out there but I just couldn't get the whump out of any of the stuff that I had. I'd still like to find a cab or cabs that will bridge that tone/weight divide but time will tell. [/quote]


I went down the Aguilar cab route as well. Looking at my gear list below you will see heavy amps and heavy cabs. The Aguilars aren't so bad though, and they have casters.

I also have the LM3, which to me, was the main thing to get 'right' when looking at a lightweight amp/cab solution. When I tour, we often get the backline bass cab supplied, or a large combo, so the Orange stays at home and the LM3 goes with me. Its light, sounds great, and I actually like how it looks!

I nearly went lightweight on my next cab until I bought the HS410. Now, dont get me wrong, its not light. But, it is VERY small for a 4x10, and its sound...well....we all know about how good the Bergs are. A lot of the Talkbass guys actually opted for the HS over the AE due to its pure low end punch and thud.

I am very interested in seeing/hearing if the Barefaced Compact will work out for me as my lightweight cab. I nearly went for a Schroeder, but after emailing Jorg, he mentioned they have had recent problems, but its getting sorted out. So, they are out.

I STILL would love a little DB112 x 2 setup....but it seems pointless as I have the DB212s....but it'd be nice to have that option of one for low volume practice. The DB's really are great...I was really shocked when I first heard them.

So...yes...Im hoping this test of the Compact will open my eyes. I should be getting it Tues ish. I've look at the measurements and it seems quite small...which is essential as all my cabs are mid sized.

I think neo...in my eyes....has some way to go before everyone thinks it sounds right for them. A lot of bassists will never actually go down the neo route....Im hoping I will just with one or two small cabs.

To me....having a light head that was small and powerful, with a totally different sound to the Orange (eg modern and crisp instead of dirty and chunky) was the most important move. My old backup Trace head was FAR too heavy...sounded good, but wow did it weigh a lot! Now when I goto small gigs, the LM3 is a godsend!

Whoops....sorry about the essay!

[Pete Academy]

By far the best sound I ever had was a Marshall VBA 400 all-valve beast. No messing with tone controls - just plug in and away you go. This was through my AShdown 4 x 8" and 1 x 15". However, the amp was basically atwo-man lift, so my back couldn't cope. I now use the same cabs with a Superfly head and I'm happy enough. I stand right by the cabs at ear height, so they are mainly monitoring, as we always use a PA rig.

I don't think you can beat big stuff, but my back doesn't agree.

[sdgrsr400]

[quote name='Gunsfreddy2003' post='558277' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:31 AM']...
To get to the point I opted at that point to go for an Aguilar AG500SC and an Epifani UL210 which together on the day just beat the hell out of everything that I heard and that is why I bought it. To my ear most neo cabs are a bit soul-less and empty sounding but the Epi cab has the depth that I used to get from my bigger/heavier cabs but weighs nothing. I also found that 2x12 cabs just sounded muddy and shapeless. Again these are just my opinions and experiences other have raved about EBS 2x12's but I would never use one...[/quote]
+1 for Epifani, lovely warm sound and deep too.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bythesea' post='558438' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:50 PM']Alex is also putting one of his cabs "on tour" for people to try out - have a look in his sub-forum for the latest itinerary [/quote]

Mr T already has one, hence my conviction that the problem lies earlier in the signal chain!

Alex

[Protium]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558231' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:26 AM']When I used Trace gear, which I did for 20 years, I rarely had to do much more than a little tweak here and there.
For the past 7 or 8 months, I seem to have done nothing but twist EQ controls.... trying to get a decent sound.

Am I alone in this?
Do I have to go back to a heavy rig to get a sound that is consistant from week to week?

Has anyone else had a similar journey?[/quote]

Same here, loads of tweaking and still can't get my tone with the Schroeder compared to my old ABM410. Don't know whether to replace the neo drivers with proper ones or go for an ABM210 instead