Lightweight Rig.

[Mr.T]

First off, thanks for all the replies.
I am glad that I am not alone in this quest for a light(ish) rig that sounds big!

[quote name='alexclaber' post='558319' date='Aug 2 2009, 10:47 AM']What's crap about your sound? Just saying it's crap doesn't tell us anything!

I know my cabs can flatten the old Trace Elliots you used to use so if you're not getting the sound you want it's because you're wanting the colouration and distortion your old TE cabs had. One Compact can move almost as much air without distortion as an old TE 2x15" so your problem has to be that you want that distortion.
Alex[/quote]


Alex,
I agree that saying my sound was 'crap' isn't a particularly informative statement.... I was feeling a little upset and sorry for myself last night!

As you know, I have been using an Aguilar GS112 paired with an Ashdown 2x10 neo.
I bought one of your Compacts in the hope that it would be a 'one cab' solution, my thinking was that all the EQ'ing I was having to do was due to mixing drivers. This seems to not have been the case. The Compact is a very lightweight and easy to transport cab, but (For the sound I want) not a one cab solution. I felt it lacked clarity and doesn't have the top end that I like. It is very loud, but in a thin way (If that makes sense)?

I played the first half of my gig with the Nemesis 700, and the second half with a MarkBass LM2.
The LM2 although not as clear an amp as the Eden, did punch through the mix better.
Towards the end of our second set, I switched from my usual Status bass (not known for being lacking in top end) to my recently built Jazz... still no joy.

Far from liking distortion, as you suggest, I like a nice fat, clean warm sound without booming... and just a bit of sparkle.
My Trace rig always delivered this, my MarkBass SA450 with the Aggie/Ashdown cabc (on a good day) could deliver this sometimes better than the Trace, but not consistantly. Last night I could get boom, I could get mids that sounded distorted (too my ears), but couldn't get anywhere near the sound I want.

My concern from using the Compact at home was that it sounded thin when used on its own. It sounded better when used with the 2x10, but that wasn't why I bought it.... I was hoping for a one cab solution. Last nights gig just proved what I was already thinking.... A 15" driver on its' own doesn't get the sound I want.

Maybe a 'top cab' for the Compact?
(I asked you about this, but you didn't seem interested).

.... Or maybe I should rethink, and start again from scratch, with heavier cabs?

[BassBod]

I'm still very happy with my lightweight set up - EA 500 with one or two cxl1x10s. The cabs are a bit heavy for their small size, but that's relative.

One thing I've done for years is to dirty up the clean sound (also with SWR) with a Sansamp..it really helps to make things sit better in most musical styles - not really distortion, but just a smudge.

Don't forget you can pick up old trace/swr/ampeg/alembic preamps fairly cheap - they're not popular because of the 19" rack format, but they also light! I sometimes use the EA 500 as a power amp and it works very well.

[BassBunny]

MarkBass Little Mark 2.
2 x Zoot 112's and a Zoot 115 compact

Perfect
Light, and easily adaptable to any situation of Single Cab or perm any 2 from 3.
Haven't bought any Amp gear for 18 months.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='558522' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:45 PM']Haven't bought any Amp gear for 18 months.[/quote]

I am looking forward to that time!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558495' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:12 PM']The Compact is a very lightweight and easy to transport cab, but (For the sound I want) not a one cab solution. I felt it lacked clarity and doesn't have the top end that I like. It is very loud, but in a thin way (If that makes sense)?[/quote]

I know why you're saying that but it isn't actually thin and has a surprising amount of top end - but if you put a thin sound without enough treble into it then it will sound like that. However, if you really do like a LOT of treble then it isn't the cab for you - you need a cab with a midrange driver or tweeter .

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558495' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:12 PM']I played the first half of my gig with the Nemesis 700, and the second half with a MarkBass LM2.
The LM2 although not as clear an amp as the Eden, did punch through the mix better.
Towards the end of our second set, I switched from my usual Status bass (not known for being lacking in top end) to my recently built Jazz... still no joy.[/quote]

The LM2 is a very clean amp, less woolly than the Eden. But as it is so clean, it doesn't have the punch of a Shuttle 6.0 or a 1001RBII.

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558495' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:12 PM']Far from liking distortion, as you suggest, I like a nice fat, clean warm sound without booming... and just a bit of sparkle. My Trace rig always delivered this, my MarkBass SA450 with the Aggie/Ashdown cabc (on a good day) could deliver this sometimes better than the Trace, but not consistantly. Last night I could get boom, I could get mids that sounded distorted (too my ears), but couldn't get anywhere near the sound I want.[/quote]

No, you're not understanding what I've been saying about distortion, but you wouldn't be alone in misunderstanding that. When I refer to your old cabs providing distortion and colouration that were obviously a key part of your tone, I don't mean that anyone would describe your tone as distorted. Distortion is not something that's either on or off, it's a continuum. The speaker in the Compact can work up to very high levels with less than 10% distortion, whilst the lower excursion drivers in your old cabs would be running at maybe 20 or 30% distortion at a similar level. That's not enough distortion for someone listening to you at a gig to say "that bass player's got a nice gently overdriven tone" but it's enough to add extra midrange punch and fatness. I believe that when you refer to the Compact having a thin tone it's because it doesn't add that extra punch and fatness. The Compact does not do sparkle - even the Big One doesn't do sparkle. If you'd said you wanted sparkle I would have said you needed a cab with a tweeter, it's the only option.

I would suggest that what you describe as a nice fat warm clean sound without booming actually has a ton more midrange and treble than many think that equates to. That's where words fall down!

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558495' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:12 PM']My concern from using the Compact at home was that it sounded thin when used on its own. It sounded better when used with the 2x10, but that wasn't why I bought it.... I was hoping for a one cab solution. Last nights gig just proved what I was already thinking.... A 15" driver on its' own doesn't get the sound I want.[/quote]

If it sounded better when using it with your 2x10" then you clearly want more midrange, more treble and maybe more colouration in your sound. You'd probably like this little Midget, maybe with a tweeter - it's much more in your face than the Compact.

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558495' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:12 PM']Maybe a 'top cab' for the Compact?
(I asked you about this, but you didn't seem interested).[/quote]

I was interested, that's why I replied, but once you suggested a price I found it's not possible for that kind of money and I don't think anyone would want to pay what's necessary. Since then I've returned to trying to work out a way of making a 'Super Compact' variant which doesn't cost too much more but has the extra top of a midrange driver or a horn that can go quite low, but it's a complicated job.

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558495' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:12 PM'].... Or maybe I should rethink, and start again from scratch, with heavier cabs?[/quote]

The weight has absolutely NO bearing on the tone. Just forget the weight thing! You could put a heavy old TE 15" in the Compact's cab and it would sound incredibly similar to the TE it came from (though you might need to remove the internal damping material) but still be very light.

I also wonder quite how loud you're playing? I know that with a hefty enough amp behind it that the Compact can go very loud - but if you're asking for too much bottom (I think unlikely in your case) then it may start distorting, or more likely you're asking for more than your amps can give (maybe in the midrange and highs so attack transients are causing the problem) and the amp is clipping.

Regardless, as you're used the 'sparkle' word to describe your sound then there's no point hanging onto the Compact if you're determined to have a one cab solution. You need a cab with a tweeter. Send the cab back for a refund and when I've got the first Midget T done I'll send you one to try out. Alternatively if you really are playing that loud, you may have to stick with a two cab solution (as low weight per box is critical), in which case you might find it worth hanging onto the Compact for now and waiting for me to get a Midget T sorted to stack on top. And if that doesn't work then I will be totally stumped!

Alex

[BarnacleBob]

I see that thebeeps has an Eden Metro 2x10 combo and 2x10 ext cab for sale - where would this sit as a compromise size/weight to vol/tone in anyones opinion?

BB

Edited August 2, 2009 by BarnacleBob

[Musicman20]

What I really want to do is A/B the compact with a ceramic cab.

A few years back a lot of people did say that neo speakers sound totally different.

If a neo speaker can almost nail it, but add something a little different, then Im in.

[Mr.T]

Alex,

I want to make it clear that I am in no way knocking the Compact.

For what it is (a 1x15), it is (as you say) capable of going very loud.
Also, it had more than enough bottom end.
I personally think that an amp with a more flexible EQ could (potentially) get more out of this cab.
(Less at around 50hz. more in the 100hz region?).

I wouldn't say that I am putting a thin sound into the cab.... Eden & MarkBass aren't usually known for sounding thin, are they?

I agree with what you are saying, and think I need to go back to a multi-cab rig.

I'll PM you about returning the cab, and rethink where I go next!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558632' date='Aug 2 2009, 05:30 PM']Alex,

I want to make it clear that I am in no way knocking the Compact.

For what it is (a 1x15), it is (as you say) capable of going very loud.
Also, it had more than enough bottom end.
I personally think that an amp with a more flexible EQ could (potentially) get more out of this cab.
(Less at around 50hz. more in the 100hz region?).[/quote]

That makes sense. But also an amp that lets you push a valve gently to thicken things up. Honestly, try the Shuttle 6.0, it has that kind of thick fatness.

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558632' date='Aug 2 2009, 05:30 PM']I wouldn't say that I am putting a thin sound into the cab.... Eden & MarkBass aren't usually known for sounding thin, are they?[/quote]

No bass amp on the market sounds thin - otherwise no-one would buy them! But all bass amps can be made to sound thin - just put a thin sound into them. I think what makes it clear that you expect a certain thickness in the midrange is that you managed to comment on the Compact having plenty of bottom but also sounding thin - a lot of people would say that you can't have both at once - fat bottom and thinness are mutually exclusive. So it's a midrange issue and the Markbass doesn't thicken up the mids at all with its preamp, nor is the EQ voiced right to try to add it that way.

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558632' date='Aug 2 2009, 05:30 PM']I agree with what you are saying, and think I need to go back to a multi-cab rig.

I'll PM you about returning the cab, and rethink where I go next![/quote]

If you're going to a multi-cab rig, I'd recommend hanging onto the Compact and I'll send you a Midget T at my cost ASAP. It really bugs me when I can't solve tone/amplification problems but I think this might do it.

Alex

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='558636' date='Aug 2 2009, 05:42 PM']If you're going to a multi-cab rig, I'd recommend hanging onto the Compact and I'll send you a Midget T at my cost ASAP. It really bugs me when I can't solve tone/amplification problems but I think this might do it.

Alex[/quote]

Do you mean try a Midget T sitting on top of a Compact?

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='558636' date='Aug 2 2009, 05:42 PM']I think what makes it clear that you expect a certain thickness in the midrange is that you managed to comment on the Compact having plenty of bottom but also sounding thin - a lot of people would say that you can't have both at once - fat bottom and thinness are mutually exclusive.
Alex[/quote]

My understanding is something like this...

When I said the Compact had plenty of 'Bottom end', I mean ultra lows that can eventually become booming.
Fatness (I think) comes from a higher frequency 100hz (ish)?

I used to set my Trace with:
Cut at 40 & 60hz.
Flat at 80hz
Boosting at 100 & 180hz
Then cutting in a curve with its peak cut at around 500hz
Boosting again at around 2.6mhz
Then flat again above that.

All done in gentle curves.

I know that is probably acedemic and won't translate to other amps/cabs, but might give an idea of what I am trying to achieve.

[steve-soar]

I like Claber, he's a straight talking Mother and I like his returns policy.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558642' date='Aug 2 2009, 06:02 PM']Do you mean try a Midget T sitting on top of a Compact?[/quote]

Indeed I do. It's a very nice height so easier to hear plus the Midget is quite a lot more midrangey and less deep in the lows, and the two together sound really thick and punchy. Just assembling the first tweeter crossover right now so I can tell you how the Midget T plus Compact sound tomorrow!

Alex

[machinehead]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='558722' date='Aug 2 2009, 08:17 PM']Indeed I do. It's a very nice height so easier to hear plus the Midget is quite a lot more midrangey and less deep in the lows, and the two together sound really thick and punchy. Just assembling the first tweeter crossover right now so I can tell you how the Midget T plus Compact sound tomorrow!

Alex[/quote]


I'm looking forward to the appearance of these Midgets. I like the idea of having the choice of using one or two cabs and in this case, maybe either on their own depending on the gig.
Very useful methinks.

Frank.

[charic]

Mr. T. Im probably missing something here but perhaps you LIKE the sound of colouration coming from cabs? Its not abnormal in the slightest. Loads of people love it, having a clean signal outside of the studio is over-rated imho. You like your HIFI system? Guess what it has colouration. A lot of these new fangled lightweight cabs are designed to be extremely accurate. Which is all well and good if thats what you want. I believe this Alex's route and from what people are saying im sure he does it well.

However on the other end of the spectrum we have the instant classics. Ampeg/Trace etc. These cabs by definition are knowhere near accurate but they sound good to some people, actually quite alot. Could be alex's cabs arent for you. Just a different view on the same situation I guess.

On a side-note. Alex without being rude you sound far too defensive of your product, from what I gather you have a right to be VERY proud of your product and for that well done however I doubt its a one stop solution for everyone. As I say well done and Im in no way slating your product

[Mr.T]

[quote name='charic' post='558772' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:51 PM']Mr. T. Im probably missing something here but perhaps you LIKE the sound of colouration coming from cabs?[/quote]

It is possible, although I think (thought) that I like a fairly clean sound.

I did manage to get my SA450 with the Aguilar 1x12 and Ashdown 2x10 combination to sound pretty good.... just not consistantly at every gig!
Sometimes the mids sounded too brittle, so I would EQ them out, then I'd not cut throught the mix as well as I wanted to, etc.

Hence my thinking that mixing drivers was my problem... and choosing the Compact.

Maybe I also need to rethink my amp?
I don't think I am aiming for a sound that is particularly unusual, but am certainly getting tied up in knots... at the moment.

[Musicman20]

Im my opinion I think your amp is fine. I went with the LM3 over the Shuttle because it simple had more ommphh to it....this is a well known comparison. Not only that....the LM3 'sounds' much louder than the Shuttle.

The MAX version solved some of these problems...but its quite a lot bigger/more expensive.

[alexclaber]

Who thinks I should send the original Big One to Mr T to see if that solves the problem? It's sitting here looking battered and unloved and might as well go on a tour like those Compacts rather than gathering dust!

Regarding cleanness, ooomph, fatness, etc - I think the problem with these words is that everyone has a different idea of what they mean. I'd expect the LM3 to have more bottom than the Shuttle 6.0 because it goes a bit lower and doesn't have the midrange character - but I don't believe that's the kind of fatness being sought. Likewise, I'm sure the Mr T clean bass sound is a clean bass sound - but that doesn't mean there is zero distortion in it! Remember that all the classic clean guitar sounds (Fender Twin, Roland JCM, etc) actually have a lot of distortion and colouration - just nowhere near the massive amount of distortion on a distorted sound.

Alex

[charic]

Just an idea to make this thread less confusing, refer to distortion as THD lol im guessing this is what you mean by distortion most of the time anyway

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='558817' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:06 PM']Who thinks I should send the original Big One to Mr T to see if that solves the problem? It's sitting here looking battered and unloved and might as well go on a tour like those Compacts rather than gathering dust!

Alex[/quote]

Alex...

I considered the BigOne before buying the Compact.
Problem is I would then be going back up again in size/weight.
(Which I may well have to do, although I prefer the idea of 2 smaller/lighter cabs).

[steve-soar]

Genz Shuttle just didn't sound anything like a bass amp to me.
No breadth, presence, ability to shift air with weight, A good bass amp makes a gig move, a good PA makes a big gig move.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='558895' date='Aug 3 2009, 12:23 AM']A good bass amp makes a gig move, a good PA makes a big gig move.[/quote]

Gigging.

Therein lies the problem!

I think most amps/cabs can put out a passable tone in the comfort of a music store or frontroom.
... But put them in the mix with loud drummer (and my band has a LOUD drummer) and a g**tarist with a 4x12 and it is a different story.

I am sure my old Trace rig made the same noise at home or at a gig.
When I turned up the wick, it just made the same noise... but louder.

Why wont any of this new kit I own do that?

I have got it all to sound sweet at home, but at every gig it sounds different!
(and not in a good way).

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='558844' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:31 PM']I considered the BigOne before buying the Compact.
Problem is I would then be going back up again in size/weight.
(Which I may well have to do, although I prefer the idea of 2 smaller/lighter cabs).[/quote]

You might enjoy the larger but still lightweight single cab with wheels solution, I know I do. I'll put in the updated crossover this week and send it your way!

Alex

[JTUK]

When you get a new set-up, I think a lot of people scimp on the set-up side... as in they don't really go through the EQ set-up and understand what they need for their sound.

I have come back to SWR after a few years and I have added a 15" cab and changed the speakers in the 2x10.
If doesn't make that much difference if I run the amp bi or bridged but I understand enough about how to dial in what I need room-wise for cutting through and what I like sound-iwse. I think this is a compromise some don't want to make.
They dial in the bass sound and then expect it to work in a loud setting....it may do but you need a very switched-on guitar player not to swamp your frequencies, IME.

I would start from scratch and run flat...then add just a touch at a time....but realise that what cuts through is mids, and those mids might be pretty harsh if used unsparingly.

Watch any sound man go through his mix... he isn't boosting volume so much as tweaking a mid frequency ..otherwise we just end up in a fight for who is loudest on the night ..which is painful for all concerned and a recipe for a bad night sound-wise..IMO

I wouldn't say running a 15 and a 2x10 is a light righ but it is part of a 4 carry set-up and can give me a huge sound. The cabs are 55lbs max, IIRC correctly which is managaable, IMV. Weight isn't the problem but space is... and the only reason I might change to Ag 12's is to get them more easlily in my car.

I will be reasonable in my epectations about 2 1x12 cabs doing the job of a 15 and 2x10's. Power rating, they will cope, but sound-wise, for me, watch this space.

[davidmpires]

I think it's a matter of what colouration you want.

I played, TE, Ampeg, Harkte. They are all cool. But they all do colour my sound. I spent too much money on my basses and time learning technique to have my sound coloured by a cab or an amp. That's why I was using an Acme B2 with my F1, and now changed to a Compact due to it being so light.
I found that when you get a new piece of gear, it's like learning how to walk all over again.
You are used to boost the mids on the Ampeg, because the cab lacks them. Use an Acme and you don't have too, they work very well flat. (with my set up).

Spend time adjusting your sound, also try considering cabinet placement, this has a massive impact on your overal sound.