Lightweight Rig.

[Bilbo]

Haven't read the whole thread but here's my fourpenneth

I did the 'downsize' last year after feeling tired of humping the Eden Metro once too often. I got hold of two GK MB112 cabs and used an old SWR Electric Blue head to drive them. It was ok for small jazz gigs etc but about two months ago I just got to the point where I realised that I was compromising my sound and not enjoying the results. So I got the Eden back out and only use the GKs for rehearsals etc. I am happier for it. I think it may have something to do with the number of gigs you do. Humping heavy gear once a week is easier to cope with than 4 times etc.

[alexclaber]

I think one key learning from this is that if you're in a properly loud band (I hadn't quite gathered that Mr T was up against a LOUD drummer and a 4x12") then you're much better off not downsizing but just 'downweighting'! Bear in mind that the old rig was a 1x15" and a 2x10"+5", so total weight ~140lbs or 60kg. If there wasn't so much midrange and top required the Compact could have handled it but when you need to really cut through it's asking a lot of a single 32lbs/14.5kg cab. But I bet a Compact/Midget pairing (total weight 56lbs) or a Big One (total weight 47lbs) could do the job by bringing that extra midrange and increasing the stack height/dispersion making it easier to hear.

Also if you are used to playing in loud rock bands your default sound is likely to involve a lot more midrange and highs than you think. That's something I'll bear in mind in the future - if someone in a rock band describes their tone as a nice fat, clean warm sound they mean something totally different to someone in a soul band!

Alex

[PURPOLARIS]

I stupidly thought about getting rid of my TE 4x10 cab mainly because of its weight and because it doesn't fit into the boot of my car (bmw 5 series old shape V reg) which surprised me. I just know I'm going to struggle to find that tone again so I'm changing my car. Going for a Honda CRV which should do the job :-)

[chris_b]

It seems to me that the expectations here are unrealistic. I think that you guys will not be able to change your gear to a significantly different technology and keep the same sound! Your sound will change, and the sound of a clean modern cab is a million miles away from the sound of a "clean" old style cab. Make the change in steps. If you have an old style 410 get a neo 410.

[ezbass]

I just wanted to add my experience of going from a normal sized head with two 2x10s to a lightweight head and lightweight 2x12 single cab solution (Markbass LMII and Schroeder 1212L 4ohm). Couldn't be happier, best FOH and on stage sound I've ever had and enough volume to bludgeon my loud 7 piece covers band if they get too unruly. I guess it either works for you or it doesn't. My only tiny complaint is the visual element 'cos let's be honest a big old head on top of a 6 or 8x10 is a sight to behold. If we had roadies and the associated transport I'd be going for a dirty great big Aguilar rig, but as we don't, my back and car are more than satisfied with the current solution.

[Bottle]

Wow! A very interesting thread to stumble upon.

Tried my new combination of cab + head at gigging volume for the first time yesterday (EBS 4x10 and GK MB2-500). First set with a quiet drummer was OK - didn't crank the volume too much, seemed OK with my Ibanez with passive J P'ups.

Second set with our regular drummer (loud!!) - had to crank the level up so I could hear it properly, and it sounded much better. Still, would have been nice to soundcheck with our regular drummer first so I could sort out the EQ and to try it with my active 5'er.

I think it's all very well trying stuff in a shop or front-room at reasonable volumes, but really need to try at real gigging volumes for deficiencies to come out.

BTW tried a GB Shuttle 3.0 (not the 6.0), which doesn't have a valve pre, and a LM3 - wasn't impressed, couldn't dial in the tone I liked, really wanted to like the MarkBass, but it wasn't for me. Would like to try out a Shuttle 6.0 (maybe I can hold on till the Bass Bash? )

Anyway, YMMV

Ian

[Mr.T]

[quote name='chris_b' post='559020' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:22 AM']It seems to me that the expectations here are unrealistic. I think that you guys will not be able to change your gear to a significantly different technology and keep the same sound! Your sound will change, and the sound of a clean modern cab is a million miles away from the sound of a "clean" old style cab. Make the change in steps. If you have an old style 410 get a neo 410.[/quote]

With my SA450 running through the Aggie 1x12 and Ashdown 2x10 neo, I absolutely could get a sound that wasn't too far away from my Trace sound.
Probably a little punchier and easier to hear (and I liked that!).... Just couldn't get it every week.
The problem was it sounded soooo different at every gig, whereas my Trace always sounded pretty much the same.

[machinehead]

Thinking about this light weight and large or small box sizes got me thinking. Is anyone aware of a cabinet manufacturer making a cabinet that slides out in a telescope fashion?

I realise there are issues to be overcome in such a design such as airtightness, rigidity and so forth. However, the advantage would be that it could be light in weight and small for transproting/ storing, but, when extended, big enough to go loud and low?

Should I patent this idea?


Frank

[alexclaber]

It's something I've considered in the past, likewise a cab cover that acts as an extension to the main cab to increase internal volume. But the problems of rigidity and an airtight seal are so difficult to get around, so the cab will end up a lot more expensive and heavier than you'd expect.

I think a lot of the problem is actually psychoacoustic - if you've been using the same rig for 20 years you will be so used to how it sounds that your brain will never have a problem picking it out in the onstage mix. Change the sound and it's going to take your brain a good while to lock onto your sound again.

Alex

[davidmpires]

or a foldable 8x10

[sixshooter]

I can relate to all of the problems above.

Love Trace, still got a 1 x 15 combo and 2 x 10, had a V8 and sold it due to weight!

Replaced it with EPI 4 x 10 and 1x 15 plus Markbass amp, this gives me lightweight and flexibility but not the sound I was after.

After an exchange of views on here I went down the route of an external active pre-amp between the bass and amp, and first time out yesterday I had my sound back! still got to try it out at a couple move venues, but based on that I would say that Alex's intial thoughts were right, you appear to need a hotter signal to drive the lightweight gear to get the good old TE sound.

[redstriper]

Sorry to hear about your problems Mr T.
It's no fun when you can't get your sound right, especially when you had it before spending loadsa dough on new toys.
Alex is so right when he talks about words being insufficient in explaining sound and there is often an element of compromise when looking for your perfect tone.
When you described your sound as smooth, warm and deep, I imagined a similar sound to mine.
After reading your eq settings on the TE amp, I realise your idea of deep is very different to mine and that you like a more middly sound that I would not get on with at all.
The LM2 and eminence 15" neo cabs work great for my reggae sound because I don't want much middle or treble, just deep bass.
For your rock sound, you like a lot more mid and treble which is almost the opposite of my sound.
I would recommend cutting the eq that you don't like rather than boosting too much and don't use the filters on the LM2 at all.
Don't give up on the lightweight route, it took a while for me to find my sound on the LM2, but that's because I was trying too hard and Alex's neo cabs should be easily capable of matching your old set up.

The LM2 through the big one might be the best compromise.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='redstriper' post='559132' date='Aug 3 2009, 12:34 PM']The LM2 through the big one might be the best compromise.[/quote]

Hi Steve,

That might be the answer.

I have just had another play around with my set-up.

Using my Eden Nemesis, I found that by boosting at around 200hz and cranking the treble up full, it was sounding a bit more to my taste.
The problem with the LM2 is that it is not really possible to boost the very low mids without it getting boomy, and the high mids sound brittle to my ears.

I think I need a speaker system that is more full-range than the Compact!
It was a shame that I didn't take my 2x10 to the gig I had at the weekend, as paired with the Compact it seems to deliver an almost infinite range of tones.... (In my frontroom).
... But if I went that route, I am back to mixing drivers again.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='sixshooter' post='559116' date='Aug 3 2009, 12:14 PM']After an exchange of views on here I went down the route of an external active pre-amp between the bass and amp, and first time out yesterday I had my sound back![/quote]

Sounds feasable.
What are you using?

[Noisyjon]

I use a MXR M-80 DI+ for a bit of grit/oomph, it's a lovely sounding unit.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='jonthebass' post='559155' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:01 PM']I use a MXR M-80 DI+ for a bit of grit/oomph, it's a lovely sounding unit.[/quote]

Hi Jon,

As the new owner of my SA450, I would be interested in your thoughts/experiences when using it with your Compacts.
In particular, how it compares with your old heavy stuff!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='559147' date='Aug 3 2009, 12:51 PM']... But if I went that route, I am back to mixing drivers again.[/quote]

I wouldn't stress about mixing drivers - if it works it works! I just wouldn't ever try to accurately predict whether it will work or not - you need to find out in practice.

Alex

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='559170' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:14 PM']I wouldn't stress about mixing drivers - if it works it works! I just wouldn't ever try to accurately predict whether it will work or not - you need to find out in practice.

Alex[/quote]

Ok,
I was thinking that was the problem I had with inconsistant sound (at different venues) with my SA450 Aggie Ashdown setup?

[sixshooter]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='559150' date='Aug 3 2009, 12:54 PM']Sounds feasable.
What are you using?[/quote]

I used a Sadowsky Pre-amp that I bought off a fellow Basschater last week. It is early days yet but it put a smile on my face on Sunday when I heard and felt the sound out of the Epi 4 x 10 using the Mark SA501, my 55P with single coil pickup and the Sadowsky.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='559172' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:17 PM']I was thinking that was the problem I had with inconsistant sound (at different venues) with my SA450 Aggie Ashdown setup?[/quote]

I doubt it. The inconsistent sound thing is consistent to most rigs with typical polar response - acoustics always affect your tone. Apart from the psychoacoustic issue (which I swear must be having some impact) I wonder if you're one of the rare few that has got used to using a cab with a midrange driver and has thus got used to its improved polar response and thus the more consistent performance from gig to gig?

Alex

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='559180' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:24 PM']I doubt it. The inconsistent sound thing is consistent to most rigs with typical polar response - acoustics always affect your tone. Apart from the psychoacoustic issue (which I swear must be having some impact) I wonder if you're one of the rare few that has got used to using a cab with a midrange driver and has thus got used to its improved polar response and thus the more consistent performance from gig to gig?

Alex[/quote]

Sorry, I don't really understand what you are saying?

[JTUK]

Mr T..

sorry, what have you replaced with what...?

If I just use a 15 with a tweeter, I can't expect it to get near to a 15 and 2x10's... as there is only so much compensating I can do on the amp...
but again, that is why I want my on-board pre to be as flat as poss..so at least I stand more of a chance of getting something useable..

I only down-scale now if the gig really doesn't warrant taking both cabs...and then I have to be reasonable with my expectations..

I can't see a tiny cab working its nuts off doing the same job at a bigger cab that will move air...it just isn't the seems physics to me...
but I have tested my set-up extensively so at least I can ID what I am mssing and try to dial it in...as opposed to twiddling and hoping

FWIW..I think a 15 and 2x10 cover an awful lots of basses and is hard to beat.. so it will be interesting to see how far/close 2 1x12's get...
Whatever the spec, they still need to fill the room or it isn't going to work..

I look at it this way... you have revs and torgue and supplanting one for the other doesn't always get you there..fine in theory, but the ears may say 'NO'

Edited August 3, 2009 by JTUK

[Mr.T]

[quote name='JTUK' post='559190' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:27 PM']Mr T..

sorry, what have you replaced with what...?

If I just use a 15 with a tweeter, I can't expect it to get near to a 15 and 2x10's... as there is only so much compensating I can do on the amp...
but again, that is why I want my on-board pre to be as flat as poss..so at least I stand more of a chance of getting something useable..

I only down-scale now if the gig really doesn't warrant taking both cabs...and then I have to be reasonable with my expectations..

I can't see a tiny cab working its nuts off doing the same job at a bigger cab that will move air...it just isn't the seems physics to me...
but I have tested my set-up extensively so at least I can ID what I am mssing and try to dial it in...as opposed to twiddling and hoping

FWIW..I think a 15 and 2x10 cover an awful lots of basses and is hard to beat.. so it will be interesting to see how far/close 2 1x12's get...
Whatever the spec, they still need to fill the room or it isn't going to work..

I look at it this way... you have revs and torgue and supplanting one for the other doesn't always get you there..fine in theory, but the ears may say 'NO'[/quote]

I have (tried) to replace a 1x15 & 2x10 and more recently a 1x12 & 2x10 with one of the Barefaced 1x15 compacts.
I appreciate what you are saying, although I bought the Compact on my understanding that it would indeed replace my other cabs.

I am also confident that Alex (Barefaced) will help me to sort this out.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='559189' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:26 PM']Sorry, I don't really understand what you are saying?[/quote]

Well the first issue is that I'm sure your brain is so used to the sound of your old rig that it finds it easier to hear - just like a parent can easily pick our their child's voice amongst a cacophony of other children - we are programmed to be good at hearing familiar sounds, it's just something evolution has done for us because it helps us help our offspring to survive.

The second issue is that the sound from a cab exhibits different dispersion at different frequencies. If the cabinet has good dispersion at all frequencies than it will perform much better in difficult acoustics because the direct sound (that going in a straight line from the cab to your ear) is very similar to the reflected sound, so it doesn't matter whether your hearing mostly reflected or mostly direct sound. Although the Compact has better dispersion than a 4x10" or a horizontal 2x10" it does not have as good dispersion as a cab with a midrange driver like the Big One or your old 2x10"+5".

Alex

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='559165' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:11 PM']Hi Jon,
As the new owner of my SA450, I would be interested in your thoughts/experiences when using it with your Compacts.
In particular, how it compares with your old heavy stuff![/quote]

Hi Mr.T,

To be honest the 2 x Compacts with the SA450 is a great match for me. They do sound slightly different from my old Boogie cabs but I think it was just me getting used to the new speakers.
I play in a band with 2 x Marshall's and a LOUD drummer and have the Gain & Volume at 12 o'clock, EQ flat, VLE off and the VPF at about 10 o'clock.
The sound is all there and sounding great IMO!

To summarize I don't miss the heavier cabs at all and still get the sounds I need, at the volume required.

Hope that helps,
Jon.

Edited August 3, 2009 by jonthebass