alexclaber Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559750' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:38 PM']However, I was led to believe it was a full range cabinet.... It isn't! I thought it would replace both my cabs.... It doesn't![/quote] Actually, a while back I asked you to try your 2x10"+5" and your 1x15" separately and report back on how you found them. You responded that they sounded very similar and you'd be perfectly happy with either, hence my suggestion that the Compact would be fullrange enough because it's just as fullrange as those old TE 15"s. If you had said that you needed the top-end of the 2x10"+5" then I would have told you that the Compact wouldn't work. Wait for the Big One, see how that works. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='559800' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:13 PM']Actually, a while back I asked you to try your 2x10"+5" and your 1x15" separately and report back on how you found them. You responded that they sounded very similar and you'd be perfectly happy with either, hence my suggestion that the Compact would be fullrange enough because it's just as fullrange as those old TE 15"s. If you had said that you needed the top-end of the 2x10"+5" then I would have told you that the Compact wouldn't work. Wait for the Big One, see how that works. Alex[/quote] True. They did sound similar at home. I never tried gigging with just one of them. I now realise that I needed that horn up by my ears when I play with the band. Ok, I'll calm down and wait to try the BigOne. I assume it will be more full range than the Compact, but will I hear the horn with it being lower down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Always difficult as tone and sound is such a subjective thing... Lesson one which I will take note of..don't sell the cumbersome gear that prompts the swap until you know the new stuff works... Sometimes this isn't feasible as it ties up space and money...but ..?? Funnily enough I didn't like TE but I do recall it rasing the bar at the time.. and the graphics were a good indicator of what you were doing in trying to achieve the sound...even though to my ears the SS EQ was too metallic.. I did like my Tube combo though... wish I'd kept that.. Then SWR added horns to 10" speakers and more new ground was broken, I think. Personally, I couldn't use 2x15's without any high end or bite but I have heard some guys make it work with a pick. If the new cab is an improvement then I would be looking for something to supplement the roll-off of the 15's... so the lightwieght 15 and a 2x10 at 40 lbs or so..would be the goal.. Since you are using a big cab underneath..in terms of sound, then NEO 10's should do ok as you don't need the bass repsonse off them anyway....not that I am unhappy with the bass of the NEO's but some don't like it.. If you considered this type of option then you are talking about 2 lightweight carries which should be justified tone-wise. That is the thinking anyway... but I wouldn't be buying anything else without a thorough demo as only you can asnwer this sound-question ultimately. Everyone else is just chipping in with ideas and suggestions that have worked .. Having said all this... maybe buy back what you knew worked..might be the cheaper option anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559805' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:27 PM']True. They did sound similar at home. I never tried gigging with just one of them[/quote] ...and another lesson, folks: It doesn't matter one jot what an amp, cab or bass sounds like in your living room, or in the shop. At the gig is where it's at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='559921' date='Aug 4 2009, 09:08 AM']...and another lesson, folks: It doesn't matter one jot what an amp, cab or bass sounds like in your living room, or in the shop. At the gig is where it's at.[/quote] Yes, I should have remembered that from when I was in my 20's.... many moons ago! I went through a similar exercise of buying and selling bass after bass, before settling on a Status Empathy. It cost me a small fortune at the time, but the guy I bought the Status from (A 'name' player) assured me that the Empathy would do anything I asked of it... and he was right. I have recently dabbled with building a few Fender 'customs' for fun, but I know my Statii (I have a few of them now) will never let me down. On the amplification front, when I first started playing seriously and gigging regularly, I just went to the Bass Centre in London and bought what was then considered to be 'The Best' work-a-day rig... Trace. Then about every 10 years, I just bought a new one... Job done. If it wasn't for my dodgy back, living out in the sticks (and no longer having a roadie) I would never have even considered moving away from TE amplification. Ok, maybe they are not the most hi-fi or whatever... but for my purposes they work great in a gigging situation, week in week out with no fuss. Since the end of last year, I have owned: Eden WT800 (Beautiful sound but 'crapped out'). GB Shuttle 6.0 MarkBass SA450 Eden Nemesis 700 MarkBass LM2 Ashdown 2x10 neo (The clearest cab I have ever owned) Aguilar GS112NT (Used as abottom cab with the 2x10 with unpredictable results) Barefaced Compact (A very loud 15, but lacking in the top end I need) I am not chasing sonic perfection, I don't think that's realistic in the kind of venues I play. I just want a 'classic rock' loud, clear, warm tone with some top-end bite.... without any boom or clack. I am no Mark King or Jaco.... but I need a sound that I can live with. I have seen a few local players who seem to be Ok with having a thin, boxy, nasal kind of sound... but that's not for me. I have done my homework before buying any of the above pices of kit, but now seem to be going backwards. I really question whether modern lightweight kit can compete with the heavy stuff tonally (No offence Alex... or anyone else), for the sound I want. I know that I have rambled (and moaned at times), but I will not accept a tone that is not right for me. I only really play for my own amusement these days... so I have got to be happy with my sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559986' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:19 AM']I just want a 'classic rock' loud, clear, warm tone with some top-end bite.... without any boom or clack.[/quote] As I said before, I'm sure that's the root of the problem - 'classic rock' tones are generally quite dependant on colouration from the amp/cabs. [quote name='Mr.T' post='559986' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:19 AM']I really question whether modern lightweight kit can compete with the heavy stuff tonally (No offence Alex... or anyone else), for the sound I want.[/quote] I'm sure it can. As I've said before, the weight has bugger all to do with the tone - I can't see the point of making a cab heavy when with a bit more cunning you can make it light! I'm still concerned that you need a bit of subtle dirt to get the tone you want - I'll reclaim my BassDrive from my guitarist and you can try that in front of your amps to get the compression/colour that I think you need. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Looking at that list, and specifically your comment re: the compact (not enough bite, loud 15) can we assume that the Compact provides a thick enough bootom end for you? If so I would suggest The Big One is what you actually need. It has more extension upwards (particularly), and downwards, is very clear and very very loud... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Alex, I really appreciate your help with this! (And my dodgy back soooo wants you to be right). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggy Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Hope you get sorted Mr. T, it can be so frustrating. I went down the lightweight route before and it just did not work out for me. It never sounded right to my ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='560003' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:42 AM']Looking at that list, and specifically your comment re: the compact (not enough bite, loud 15) can we assume that the Compact provides a thick enough bootom end for you? If so I would suggest The Big One is what you actually need. It has more extension upwards (particularly), and downwards, is very clear and very very loud...[/quote] Yes, I didn't find any lack of bottom end with the Compact. It was a bit boomy, but I'll put that down to EQ'ing and not get hung up on that at the moment. (I think I needed to cut at around 40hz and boost a little at 100hz?) It was clarity and top end that I needed more of... even when testing in my frontroom! It would seem that (at least some) of the clarity issue was down to not having the Trace horn at ear level. I really hope the BigOne does it for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='Raggy' post='560010' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:49 AM']Hope you get sorted Mr. T, it can be so frustrating. I went down the lightweight route before and it just did not work out for me. It never sounded right to my ears.[/quote] I (and others I guess?) would be interested in your journey.... and what you were trying to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='559921' date='Aug 4 2009, 09:08 AM']...and another lesson, folks: It doesn't matter one jot what an amp, cab or bass sounds like in your living room, or in the shop. At the gig is where it's at.[/quote] That is so true. I was somewhat disappointed with my Schroeder when I got it home and started to noodle to the point where I mearly returned it. But other owners said wait until you play it in a live situation and voila they were right. I was sitting in the mix nicely on my own and able to hear what I was doing on stage (no blur of muddiness). Trouble is of course is how do you go about demoing amps and cabs in the sales environment? No every amp or cab manufactuer/retailer is as understanding or helpful as Alex (huge big up to you with your customer support) when it comes to trying to return a product because it doesn't sound like you'd hoped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggy Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='560014' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:55 AM']I (and others I guess?) would be interested in your journey.... and what you were trying to achieve.[/quote] I started out years ago using Peavey or Marshall 15's playing thrash and punk and although certainly not an expert with EQ settings was fairly happy with what I was throwing out. I took quite a few years out (playing with motorcycles mostly) then a few years back had the great chance to get back into music, so I didn't start back up with any previous sound in my head. Spent a long time in music shops trying things out,reading reviews and listening to as many local bands as i could, and settled on some lightweight 10's (4x10 and 2x10). But even though in the shop my first thoughts were Wow!, live was a different story, I always felt there was something not right, to me they had a very 'middley' sound, sometimes almost boxy, yes they did go low and high but never sounded how I wanted. I tried a few friends speaker cabs of several shapes, sizes, prices and weights and always took my own amp for reference and came to the conclusion I just do not get on with neo speakers and am not keen on the sound I get from them. So I bought a Berg NV. But that is just my opinion. Tone is so subjective. 100's will disagree. I might have one last stab at the lightweight route with one of Alex's vintage cabs, and would be really interested in the findings of the compact on tour. What a great idea. Am sure Alex will assist you, but at the same time will defend his products to the end. Who wouldn't. I know lugging heavy cabs around sucks, but I know within the first couple of notes in the first song of the set. I'm grinning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Agree that this quest can be so frustrating and a work in progress... I think you will be very lucky to just plug in and play straight out the box ..most have to spend a bit of time tickering, IMV. IME, 15's can have a tendency to boom and 10's sound too clean and without much bass..but marry them together and you have depth and projection. With modern 10" cabs what sounds too clinical from directly in front of the cab will 'blossom' over a few mtrs. A good 4x10, for example will do this.. If you have too much bass from in front of the cab, then imagine how slack that sound can from a distance...!! I think projection or 'throw' of these type of speakers is just as important as anything.. From my standpoint, I can't see how any low end cab without a tweeter can cut through but if we are after differing levels of attack etc, then put that done to one man's meat bla bla.. If the OP used a 15" with a top box, then I would think a tweeter would do the same sort of thing but that is just giving the sound presence... the mids would have to come from somewhere else.. Doesn't seem like this desired sound can be acheived with a 15 on its own which ever way you skin the cat... Borrow back that 2x10 and see where you are with the Compact...but expect the 2x10 to be a bit toppy in your ear from a few feet... off stage it should mellow..and the low end will pad that out anyway. I am never too concerned that my sound is a bit too toppy if I am right on top of the cab...as long as none one else is having to hear that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) [quote]I know lugging heavy cabs around sucks, but I know within the first couple of notes in the first song of the set. I'm grinning.[/quote] This is what happens with my kinda heavy Berg HS410. But once you have casters, problem 3/4 solved. Worth every bit of effort. But, I must admit, there is probably lightweight gear I have yet to test I will like (eg hopefully Compact ). Edited August 4, 2009 by Musicman20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Out of interest (Alex), what is the -6dB (upper) point for a Compact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='560173' date='Aug 4 2009, 01:40 PM']Out of interest (Alex), what is the -6dB (upper) point for a Compact?[/quote] It's at about 4kHz. But if you're comparing a single Compact on the ground to a cab that's stacked on another cab then the narrowing dispersion at higher frequencies will make it seem a lot lower. Get it off the ground and/or tilt it so it's pointing at your ears and you'll hear that it's dead flat to about 1kHz, then has a bump of a few dB to about 2.5kHz, and then starts to drop sharply at about 3.5kHz. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Is it bad that all this talk of amps and cabs is giving me gas for a new rig... if alex done a 4x10 that looks rawk I could be in trouble lol. My band doesnt even gig!!! Or have a singer or drummer for that matter... Pedals it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='charic' post='560249' date='Aug 4 2009, 02:54 PM']if alex done a 4x10 that looks rawk I could be in trouble lol.[/quote] Why would I want to do a 4x10"? But I agree about the looking rawk thang, v important! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 I dont know, I just have a thing about them atm. Mayhap coz they look a bit more rawk? Ofc if I could transport an 8x10..... No dont get me started! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 [quote name='BeLow' post='560750' date='Aug 4 2009, 11:02 PM']Mr T I could give you some more opinions - but I suspect you have already had plenty of those. I did wonder if trying an amp/cab simulator would help to see if this gives you some of what you want. I have a basic floor pod which simulates a TE sound (I think) - I am not suggesting this as a long term solution, more a way of working out what you are after. I have also have omni 10.5 cabs which I am fairly sure is not what you want for your rig but but might work for top end and I also have some old school designed 4x8 and 1x15 cabs. Amp wise I have a LM2 (which you seem to have tried already) great amp but as an ex TE user myself I do miss the the 12 band graphic. In my back up rig I stereo graphic and vocal pre-amp / compressor unit which might allow you to identify frequencies you wish to boost out of your rig. I am not too far way from you, so if you want to get together to test ideas maybe we could even could rustle up a few more of the locals to try stuff out and I am sure some of them would be interested in hearing the Compact?[/quote] Hi, I'd be up for a get together, and you are welcome to come round and try the Compact (PM me to sort something out). The problem I am having with my gear is at gigs, so I am not sure what we could achieve, but hey! The LM2 (I still have one) is a great little amp (IMO) with plenty of power, although like you, I miss the fine tuning possibilities of the Trace 12 band graphic. I like the idea of running an LM2 with a graphic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraktal Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hello Mr. T Based on Alex's frequency response description of the compact speaker, have you tried tilting the cabinet so the speaker is pointing directly to your ear? Because that mid-hump curve you describe on your old TE gear EQ sounds very similar to what Alex said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='Fraktal' post='560846' date='Aug 5 2009, 07:25 AM']Hello Mr. T Based on Alex's frequency response description of the compact speaker, have you tried tilting the cabinet so the speaker is pointing directly to your ear? Because that mid-hump curve you describe on your old TE gear EQ sounds very similar to what Alex said.[/quote] Hi, No, I didn't try tilting the cab. I have come to the conclusion that a single 15" just ain't going to do it for me anway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='charic' post='560249' date='Aug 4 2009, 02:54 PM']Is it bad that all this talk of amps and cabs is giving me gas for a new rig... if alex done a 4x10 that looks rawk I could be in trouble lol.[/quote] Looks like there could be a market for cardboard boxes made up to look like 4x10s then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='559921' date='Aug 4 2009, 09:08 AM']...and another lesson, folks: It doesn't matter one jot what an amp, cab or bass sounds like in your living room, or in the shop. At the gig is where it's at.[/quote] Amen to that. My Schroeders would have been sold ages ago if the above wasn't true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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