Lightweight Rig.

[charic]

[quote name='tauzero' post='560983' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:51 AM']Looks like there could be a market for cardboard boxes made up to look like 4x10s then.[/quote]
Maybe =p. If i could justify it i would upgrade gig gear bt i cant yet =(

[Fraktal]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='560932' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:57 AM']Hi,

No, I didn't try tilting the cab.
I have come to the conclusion that a single 15" just ain't going to do it for me anway.[/quote]

I have a better idea that might help you. Instead of tilting the cab, try to elevate it to your ears level using a few empty beer boxes, easy to find at any pub so you dont need to carry them. That will get rid of the floor coupling effect and damp those very low frequencies (40-50Hz) that are bothering you, plus allow you to clearly hear that highmid bump that you used to set on your Trace Elliot.

Your old TE gear had speakers that will be considered inneficient by today standards, hence the much better low end response of the Compact.

Honestly, all you need to get a killer bass sound should be a 15", and I bet the Compact is an excellent cab. The only thing I might miss in a 15" cab would be a tweeter because I love the "zing" of new strings, but I'm pretty sure adding a small tweeter with a high pass filter to the Compact would be child's play. Time to pester Alex, I guess .

Anyway, you are completely right about the need of a better EQ than the built in Markbass. Its not that the Markbass EQ section is crap, just much less versatile than the Trace Elliot. Can you borrow a Boss EQ stomp? Not as good as the TE but could prove very useful for testing purposes.

Please try the EQ stompbox and beer boxes under your cab on your next gig and let me know, Im almost sure it will help you a lot and Im honestly interested to see the results.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Fraktal

[Protium]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='560257' date='Aug 4 2009, 03:04 PM']Why would I want to do a 4x10"?

But I agree about the looking rawk thang, v important!

Alex[/quote]

Because 4x10s are the best

[charic]

[quote name='Protium' post='561281' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:54 PM']Because 4x10s are the best [/quote]

Amen... I want one.

*Goes to ponder future finances

[thodrik]

Despite being started as a statement against lightweight amps, this thread has just made me just want a Compact! I've always liked the sound of a single 15inch speaker and don't think I lose anything when using one and would gladly take it over most 4x10s. That said, I don't know if I would want anything smaller than a 15 for a single speaker enclosure as I don't think a ten or 12 would cut it at the gigs I do.

Yeah, I would like to use a 4x12, 8x10 or 2x15 cab for all my gigs, but I don't own a van, so I have to maximize my sound but be able to fit it in a small car with radiator problems!

[Noisyjon]

Try 2 x Compacts, I highly recommend it!

[Mr.T]

[quote name='thodrik' post='561561' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:38 PM']Despite being started as a statement against lightweight amps, this thread has just made me just want a Compact![/quote]

It wasn't intended to be a 'statement against lightweight amps', more of a statement about me not being able to consistantly get my sound right.

If you want lots of loudness in a small and light package... buy a Compact... You can buy mine if you like, and avoid the waiting list!

[4000]

Just my two bob's worth....this will doubtless be a bit of a ramble as I'm brainstorming really.

My first decent head was a Trace AH150 GP11, one of the early ones. When I finally got the money together I bought an old (even then), used Trace 4x10. This was one of the earliest ones they did, pre-ports, pre-red stripes, pre-vinyl cover, basically half of what was in the original 250W 8x10 combo. I have a picture somewhere which I will have to post at some stage. That rig was the best rig I've ever played through live, and I've played many since. Like the OP, it worked pretty much everywhere I used it (only had one gig where it didn't and the acoustics were [i]mad[/i]). Obviously I can't do a decent comparison (both head and cab are long gone) but having used my Ashdown ABM500, a Markbass LMK and an Epifani UL502 through my Compact, the sound was a fair bit grindier and more punchy than any of my current sounds.

I remember considering changing the speakers once and ringing Trace; they told me that by now the speakers would be "knackered" and would need replacing, but I liked the sound so they stayed. I actually think that was part of what I loved about them. I will also add that the sound I had (and yes I generally played rock) I would describe as big and clean, using various basses (mainly my old Rick but also Pedulla, Wal etc) with a pick. I will add though that when I changed my amp to an SVP Pro pre with power amp, I lost my sound, so obviously the head had a lot to do with it. I will also add that I used to eq the Trace fairly heavily, with a big drop off of bass and a smiley eq (also pre-shape in) heavily boosted in the upper mids & top. I would also describe the sound as very ballsy and zingy but many wouldn't; it certainly wasn't tweeter-esque (I generally hate those).

I've been through all sorts of permutations since, and have yet to find a combination I'm as happy with as my original rig, but I have to add that that combination didn't work for every bass I used or for every style I play. This is still the case with my current rig. With the Ric the Ashdown/Compact comes closest to my old sound ; the ABM is eq-d with the bass about 10 oclock, the low mids boosted, the mid rotary roughly flat, the high mids boosted pretty heavily and the treble about about 4 oclock. I usually use a pick and I play very lightly. (BTW, for those who say Ashdown are dull, through the Compact the ABM is brighter and more lively than either the LMK or the UL502, so it's not as cut and dried as that. It is also bigger sounding and ballsier, although not as balanced and compressed. It's like the difference between John Entwistle and Richard Bona. Our guitarist agrees; he didn't rate either the Epi or LMK, although I will say that my Sei Melt sounds better through the LMK than the others, if unfortunately too thin to drive a rock band! Great for noodling though ).

As I've mentioned before, the cabs I've had that were the least successful were the Aguilar GS112s. I tried a back to back against my old Trace 1153 and they were just lifeless. Compared to the GS112s with the tweeters off (I hate the GS112s tweeters) the 1153 was much more open, much livelier, much toppier, somewhat thinner, but just much more "alive". Of course that may not be what some people want, or the same result everyone might get. A friend and I tried my ABM, his LMK and our old Trace 300 SMX through both sets of cabs and everything (Trace included) sounded as dull as dishwater through the GSs. The LMK was by far the most successful. The SMX sounded terrible. However paired with the Trace cab the SMX came alive. The ABM through the 1153 was also great; in fact possibly better. The Compact reminds me quite a bit of the 1153; it differs, but it seems to be coming from the same place. Neither however seems to have the same midrange (non-tweeter) push as my old 4x10. Ironically the first few days I owned that I thought "my God this is middly-sounding!". I'll add that I've never played another 4x10 of any make since that had that sound (sealed and only 200w handling have something to do with it Alex?).

As an aside, a year or so ago I took a couple of my basses for work to the Gallery (72 Ric and Sei Melt). Now given that currently they both need at the very least different heads to function properly, I played them both through pretty much everything in the shop and guess what? Trace Elliot won by a mile for both basses (and it was a new one)! Not a gig situation, but the sound was instantly there (maybe Alex's suggestion of familiarity played a part, but if you can plug in and get a sound you're happy with straight away compared to hours of unsuccessful tweaking with other brands, what's not to like?). I've also seen my mate the LMK owner use my old SMX/1153 set up live and the sound was always there. Huge, clear, ballsy, zingy; in fact almost everyone I've ever seen using Trace live (loads!) has had the same thing, so I'm completely with Loz on that. If it wasn't for my back, I would go back to Trace - cabs at least, though probably amps too - in a heartbeat.

Anyway, I guess my points are as follows:

If you like Trace, you like Trace, and it really does do that Trace thing like nothing else (and yes I'm aware of the myriad eq permutations and how they can affect "that Trace thing"...). It may be possible to replicate it using other (and lighter) means, but I always found it hugely easy to eq and - with the right bass - get the sound I want straight away and consistently, which is surely a big plus. What's more, despite it's supposed funk affiliations, I think it works superbly (for a certain type of player) in more rock-orientated situations.

As above, every player, bass, etc may require something different, even when trying to achieve the same tonal end. I might have to use a completely different set-up to mimic someone else's sound, simply because I don't play like them. Obvious maybe, but often forgotten. Despite having owned 9 (10?) Ricks and a Marshall Superbass stack, the best Chris Squire sound I ever got was out of a Vester VB11 through my original Trace rig. This is where it gets very difficult to offer accurate advice on gear, although I'm sure someone with Alex's knowledge will get you as near as possible.

Lastly, every different combination can potentially throw a spanner in the works. An ABM through the Compact/1153 sounds different to through an ABM cab, and nothing like it does through a GS112. An LMK sounds completely different through all of the above, as does a UL502. At least they do when I play them; YMMV. This of course probably also translates to every other brand; these are just examples based on my experience. Mix and match by all means, but be prepared for some very unsuccessful pairings! Of course then there's the small matter of the people you're playing with and the places you're playing.....

Apologies for the length of the post and if it sounds like bollocks, it's been a very long day!!!!

Edited August 5, 2009 by 4000

[JTUK]

sorry, but a 15 on its own isn't going to cut it, IMV... not any of the ones I have heard anyway..

The roll-off will be too low.
A horn will pep it up and some can handle the relatively slow moving cone...but its a bass speaker and the reason why 10's are so popular is that you can get bass out of them as well and a higher end.

!2's may be the compromise.

FWIW, I use a 15 and 2x10 and for small gigs I use the 15 with horn as I have had to get into that habit. I'll probably take my 2x10 now tho ..having replaced the speakers recently.

[davidmpires]

[quote name='JTUK' post='561687' date='Aug 6 2009, 08:37 AM']sorry, but a 15 on its own isn't going to cut it, IMV... not any of the ones I have heard anyway..

The roll-off will be too low.
A horn will pep it up and some can handle the relatively slow moving cone...but its a bass speaker and the reason why 10's are so popular is that you can get bass out of them as well and a higher end.

!2's may be the compromise.

FWIW, I use a 15 and 2x10 and for small gigs I use the 15 with horn as I have had to get into that habit. I'll probably take my 2x10 now tho ..having replaced the speakers recently.[/quote]

I strongly disagree. My Compact cuts through two loud guitars and a loud drumer with ease, it has the punch of the mids and if I need a more old school tone I just rolled them back.

I played an outdoors gig last friday and the Compact delivered, it sound wasn't quite what I prefer, mainly because of the tone pump of my Spector and me still trying to figure out what works best, but my band mates didn't noticed a thing and loved the sound.

I've been following this thread with special attention and I've come to sum it up in two things.

EQ
Cab Placement.

Edited August 6, 2009 by davidmpires

[wateroftyne]

Ah, this has got me thinking about my old Trace 1153, now. I loved that cab... am I right in thinking it didn't have a horn?

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='561701' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:07 AM']Ah, this has got me thinking about my old Trace 1153, now. I loved that cab... am I right in thinking it didn't have a horn?[/quote]

I had one of those (or was it the same one MB?) and it didn't have a horn.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='davidmpires' post='561700' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:06 AM']I strongly disagree. My Compact cuts through two loud guitars and a loud drumer with ease, it has the punch of the mids and if I need a more old school tone I just rolled them back.

I played an outdoors gig last friday and the Compact delivered, it sound wasn't quite what I prefer, mainly because of the tone pump of my Spector and me still trying to figure out what works best, but my band mates didn't noticed a thing and loved the sound.[/quote]

I used to have a Epifani UL115 and i agree, a 1x15 can be a one cab solution and doesnt have to sound "old school" at all. Living within the limits of how much you can put through the cab of course.
I was playing holiday camps with mine, running either a GK1001RBII or my SA450 and i was always heard clearly out front, no mic or DI on the bass.

[sk8]

Maybe, just maybe BarefacedBass isn't for you.

But kudos to ALex for trying to sort you out Mr.T

[stevie]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='561708' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:14 AM']I had one of those (or was it the same one MB?) and it didn't have a horn.[/quote]
Indeed, but it did sound very nice in the upper frequency range.

[Fraktal]

There are several trash metal groups in reharsal rooms beside mine, trash is not between my genre preferences, but Im enough open minded to recognize something well done. There is a particular band with very good themes, sound and arrangements. Even though I dont enjoy the genre too much, its always a pleasure to listen to them simply because they are that good. Their bass player has one of the most aggresive bass tones I have ever heard, suiting its style perfectly. It has loads of high mids to cut through the mix and give that "clank" sound, typical of that genre. He uses a Peavey combo equipped with a single 15" Black Widow speaker.

I honestly think everything is in a 15". As davidmpires wisely said all you need is EQ and cab placement (not necessarily in that order).

[Musicman20]

I realise we all have differing opinions. I am a fan of all the speaker sizes....more so 12s. But 4 10s, in a high quality cab, is a very ferocious bass sound. I love the force of 4x10s....

15s to me always give you that nice fat low end....with some nice high end with the right speaker. Its still not complete clarity...hence why I so like 10s too.

[alexclaber]

I don't give a damn what the speaker sizes are as long as they do what I want them to do! Thankfully I realised long ago that you can't say that "twelves sound like this, tens sound like that, and fifteens sound like t'other" because there are far more important parameters affecting the tone that the nominal diameter.

Maybe if the Qts was printed in a huge bright font on the cone of every speaker we buy we'd then talk about preferring a 0.3 Qts sound to a 0.5 Qts sound... But then we'd be omitting to consider Vas. And so on...

Alex

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='562004' date='Aug 6 2009, 02:40 PM']I don't give a damn what the speaker sizes are as long as they do what I want them to do! Thankfully I realised long ago that you can't say that "twelves sound like this, tens sound like that, and fifteens sound like t'other" because there are far more important parameters affecting the tone that the nominal diameter.

Maybe if the Qts was printed in a huge bright font on the cone of every speaker we buy we'd then talk about preferring a 0.3 Qts sound to a 0.5 Qts sound... But then we'd be omitting to consider Vas. And so on...

Alex[/quote]


This common thinking or impression will not go away, moving the trump card game to a different set of more informed specifications does nothing either. Some of the so-called 'informed experts' are still playing trumps when it comes to certain specifications. At the end of the day, a musical instrument or a circuit is more dependent on the holistic performance more than the sum of its parts, than any isolated specification or component. 12AX7s are used in crap amps and are used in great amps. JRC4558s are used in great circuits and crap circuits. TL072s are great in some circuits but noisy in others. 10, 12, 15" speakers go into great and crap cabinets. Foster/Fostex tweeters are the devil to some but if you use them right they sing. But as much as we know this, in the next day someone will post something along those lines that 10" do this better, Tweeters are evil or mylar caps do this , that and the other better.

[Etienne]

I'm another big fan of the old 1153! According to the specs in the '96 Trace catalogue, the Celestion driver in it could reach up to 5kHz- pretty impressive for a 15" if true! It was my first and main speaker cab for a decade, and I certainly never found it to be lacking in bite for any of my playing styles/tones over that period. I just wish I'd bought a 2nd 1153 to pair up with it at the time, instead of the 2103H I thought I needed (couldn't stand it!).

I've got a Compact now, and find that it reminds me very much of the 1153's sound, especially now that it's loosened up with a few loud gigs. It definitely doesn't sound lightweight, that's for sure! If anything, it sounds like it should weigh twice as much as the 1153!

While this debate continues about speaker size, just thought I'd mention that Peter Hook has used 15"s in his live rig for years to deliver his signature tone, and he definitely doesn't sound muddy! Ditto for Norman Watt-Roy of the Blockheads- IIRC he used a pair of JBL 15"s as his live rig for a long time, and he's quite partial to a bit of slap...

[redstriper]

The only way to know if a particular amp and speaker(s) suit you is to try them, (preferably at a gig or at least a full band practise).
If you are looking to replace something that you are already happy with, then exhaustive side by side comparisons are the best way to find out if you can get your sound from any new kit.
A long guitar cable is useful, so you can hear the sound at different distances and angles from the rig.

It doesn't matter what the specifications are on paper or what make, weight, size or combination of products you use so long as you are happy with the sound and the logistics of moving and working the gear.

This forum is useful to get an idea of other people's experiences and opinions, but there is no substitute for trying stuff for yourself because we all hear and feel differently and have our own undefinable ideas of the perfect tone.
This is not science and much as we might want spec sheets to hold all the answers, they don't - as in life, the essence is invisible.

I realise I've probably just stated the obvious, but it's surprising how easily we can be seduced by other people's opinions especially when backed up by science.

Only when we are happy with our gear can we relax and produce the music in our hearts - who feels it knows it.

[51m0n]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='562018' date='Aug 6 2009, 03:07 PM']This common thinking or impression will not go away, moving the trump card game to a different set of more informed specifications does nothing either. Some of the so-called 'informed experts' are still playing trumps when it comes to certain specifications. At the end of the day, a musical instrument or a circuit is more dependent on the holistic performance more than the sum of its parts, than any isolated specification or component. 12AX7s are used in crap amps and are used in great amps. JRC4558s are used in great circuits and crap circuits. TL072s are great in some circuits but noisy in others. 10, 12, 15" speakers go into great and crap cabinets. Foster/Fostex tweeters are the devil to some but if you use them right they sing. But as much as we know this, in the next day someone will post something along those lines that 10" do this better, Tweeters are evil or mylar caps do this , that and the other better.[/quote]


Alex is absolutely spot on here though. The sound a cab gives is far more dependant on the dimensions of the cab and its porting than the dimensions of the speaker (or it weight).

For instance, my son's berg HT115 is slightly smaller than its accompanying HT210. The 210 goes deeper. Neither is 'faster' than they other, the 115 is (awful word to use) warmer, and less hi fi - this is a subtle thing though. They have identical tweeters in, but slightly different crossovers (IIRC). Either on its own is phenominal, both together is as good as any speaker combination I have ever heard. The HT115 is IMO rightfully considered by a lot of people to be just abut the best sounding 115 you can buy. I'm not knocking the Compact at all, which is voiced differently, and doesnt have a tweeter, I'm just stating what I've read. Personally I think the difference between them is a taste thing, the Compact is a lot lighter though

[quote name='Etienne' post='562053' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:08 PM']I've got a Compact now, and find that it reminds me very much of the 1153's sound, especially now that it's loosened up with a few loud gigs. It definitely doesn't sound lightweight, that's for sure! If anything, it sounds like it should weigh twice as much as the 1153![/quote]

I couldnt agree more, the Compact sounds to my ears like an old TE 115 but 'better', deeper, clearer and louder etc. And certainly sounds like it should be three times its weight at least!

[mildmanofrock]

[quote name='51m0n' post='562062' date='Aug 6 2009, 04:25 PM']The sound a cab gives is far more dependant on the dimensions of the cab[/quote]

So, is a bigger cab generally louder and clearer?

I speak from a position of total ignorance.

[alexclaber]

A bigger cab is more sensitive in the lows, so you get more bottom out for the same power in. However the output in the lows is limited by the max clean excursion of the woofer so sensitivity in the lows needs to be allied with sufficient cone area and cone excursion (area x excursion = volume displacement or ability to move air!)

So in the case of my cabs the Midget, Compact and Big One have almost identical sensitivity in the midrange but each time you step up a size you get more sensitivity in the lows, and fortunately the volume displacement increases to keep up.

Alex

[redstriper]

The Berg 115 is only the best 115 you can buy if you like it yourself - I don't.

I haven't tried a Compact, but I have a lighter 115 that sounds great to me, so I don't need to.

Forget the science and popular opinion and use your ears!

Edited August 6, 2009 by redstriper