Feel

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='558384' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:47 AM']It can't be taught, only learned.[/quote]
While there is a smart circularity to that statement, if you have any experience of teaching musicianship alongside teaching bass (and I have years of experience) one would have to disagree.
I have a myriad of tiny defintitions about what details to impart in the way a style or line is approached and ultimately taught. Ask any of my students (and there are a few on here) it's something that I place emphasis on and I do have a ton of ideas to explain how to create a feel. I have a very detailed understanding of what elements go into creating a feel and if I can blushingly say, it is the thing I have singularly been complimented upon the most throughout my career. Everyone always says to me "lovely feel"

So yes it can be taught, and definitely it can be learned.

Just not by everbody

Edited August 2, 2009 by jakesbass

[timloudon]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='558773' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:53 PM']So yes it can be taught, and definitely it can be learned.

Just not by everbody[/quote]

+1 to that!

[TimR]

Good question. Some people get feel naturally. Some need to be told what it is and then they get it. Unfortunately there are also those that will never get it. It depends on how well someone can listen and how open they are to trying new things.

There is some discussion that even classical pieces 'swung', but there was no way to convey this on the sheet music at the time, and classical music no longer has feel.

I can particularly remember having this discussion with two people.

The first was a horn player (classically trained) who couldn't understand why when she played exactly what was written on the sheet music it still didn't sound good. I told her to use it as a guide. The music tells you what notes to play and when. Imagine reading a book out loud. The words and punctuation tell you what to say and the rhythm, but you still need to understand the meaning in order to read it with any emotion. It was a light bulb moment for her.

The second was a drummer (marching band trained). We were having real trouble playing a tune. But he couldn't understand the concept at all, and wouldn't listen. Everytime I tried to explain about playing slightly ahead of the beat he replied that you should always play exactly on the beat otherwise the tune will speed up. We had to drop the tune from the set.

[whynot]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='558377' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:41 AM']I don't think it can be taught. Feel is mostly about attitude, so you either get it or you don't. But I think it can be learned.[/quote]
CK (4th post in) said it for me.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='TimR' post='558776' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:59 PM']Good question. Some people get feel naturally. Some need to be told what it is and then they get it. Unfortunately there are also those that will never get it. It depends on how well someone can listen and how open they are to trying new things.

There is some discussion that even classical pieces 'swung', but there was no way to convey this on the sheet music at the time, and classical music no longer has feel.

I can particularly remember having this discussion with two people.

The first was a horn player (classically trained) who couldn't understand why when she played exactly what was written on the sheet music it still didn't sound good. I told her to use it as a guide. The music tells you what notes to play and when. Imagine reading a book out loud. The words and punctuation tell you what to say and the rhythm, but you still need to understand the meaning in order to read it with any emotion. It was a light bulb moment for her.

The second was a drummer (marching band trained). We were having real trouble playing a tune. But he couldn't understand the concept at all, and wouldn't listen. Everytime I tried to explain about playing slightly ahead of the beat he replied that you should always play exactly on the beat otherwise the tune will speed up. We had to drop the tune from the set.[/quote]


This reminds me of when I worked in a music shop in Macclesfield, which was frequented by numerous snobby piano teachers calling in to buy sheet music. I remember some of them being outraged by the fact I couldn't read music, and so how come I was working in a music shop? When I asked them if they could play anything without music and improvise a tune, they admitted they couldn't. But the most alarming case was a teacher who came in to buy a graded jazz piano piece and was flummoxed at the word 'swing' at the beginning of the piece. 'How do you make something swing?' she asked. And this was someone being paid for her job.

[TimR]

That raises the questions.

Is it taught?
How can it be taught?
At what stage in a students education is it introduced?

[JTUK]

NOPE.....

Listen to someone who has 'it' and then you'll know that players have what they have in this respect.

It is the same thing asto why a few drummers are just jaw-dropping in sound-check.. and most defo aren't... that can't be taught.
You can teach the technique to be able to do some of that stuff..but you can't teach how it feels, IMV..

Feel transcends technique ..

[Pete Academy]

I think there was a thread a few weeks' ago where someone wanted to learn funk and a few bass parts from certain songs were suggested in order to learn the style. Taking Brick House as an easy-ish example, just giving someone the notes doesn't mean anything. How do you teach someone to make a bassline groove? Do you break the line down into macro parts, just as some drum machines did?

[Pete Academy]

By the way, has anyone heard 'D'Angelo's album, which I think is called Voodoo (forgive me if I'm wrong), with Pino on bass. He has this style where the instruments are so far behind the beat, it actually sounds out of time. This has pi**sed off quite a few people, as it did me on certain tracks. Any opinions on this?

[mrcrow]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='558364' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:28 AM']I was having a discussion with a fellow band member the other day about feel, and whether it comes natural or can be taught. I reckon it's something you develop mainly by what you listen to and consequently play a great deal. How could you teach it?
Any thoughts?...[/quote]

the person who would teach it to you wasnt taught....??

it comes with maturity

[LukeFRC]

Coming at this from the school of self-taught players, I picked up the bass aged 18 (now 24) having never had a music lesson in my life and started mucking around on it ('playing' in the other sense of the verb).
Now I've read a few books but I still know that I possibly am one of the least theory/education/knowledge educated on this forum.

But I've never had a problem picking up a bass and getting the feel for a piece of music. Wether that is when I first started and only knew what the root note was or now when i know more theory. Ive never had a problem getting down timings in different genres (after a while) or (if i turn my brain off) finding by ear the 'right' notes.

Now this isn't me being big headed, but why is this? I would put this down to two things.
All through my teenage years I listened to music constantly, of different genres. I spent all my money on CD's and listend to John Peel and stuff. Because I have heard lots it feeds into how I find the feel. When Ive been teaching drawing skills to folk mostly it is stopping them and getting them to 'look' more that improves their drawing. I suggest maybe the same applies to music as art.

Secondly after a few months of playing in my room I was chucked infront of 100 or so people at church to play and not mess up. Doing that every few weeks with no practices as a band beforehand really really tightens up your playing! You don't have the option of not getting the feel right!
Often we get handed music to some new song we've never heard 10 min before we have to play it live.

[Faithless]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='559635' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:50 PM']By the way, has anyone heard 'D'Angelo's album, which I think is called Voodoo (forgive me if I'm wrong), with Pino on bass. He has this style where the instruments are so far behind the beat, it actually sounds out of time. This has pi**sed off quite a few people, as it did me on certain tracks. Any opinions on this?[/quote]


I'm listening to this album probably everyday, and know it to bits, but haven't 'spotted' what you said..

It grooves well, in the end, nothing to add..

[The Funk]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='558364' date='Aug 2 2009, 11:28 AM']I was having a discussion with a fellow band member the other day about feel, and whether it comes natural or can be taught. I reckon it's something you develop mainly by what you listen to and consequently play a great deal. How could you teach it?

Any thoughts?...[/quote]

Feel [i]can[/i] come naturally and [i]can[/i] be taught/explained and is something that you either develop or don't.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Faithless' post='559852' date='Aug 4 2009, 12:32 AM']I'm listening to this album probably everyday, and know it to bits, but haven't 'spotted' what you said..

It grooves well, in the end, nothing to add.. [/quote]


????????

[Faithless]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='559635' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:50 PM']By the way, has anyone heard 'D'Angelo's album, which I think is called Voodoo (forgive me if I'm wrong), with Pino on bass. He has this style where the instruments are so far behind the beat, it actually sounds out of time. This has pi**sed off quite a few people, as it did me on certain tracks. Any opinions on this?[/quote]


[quote name='Pete Academy' post='560040' date='Aug 4 2009, 01:23 PM']???????? [/quote]

What's so " ?????? " about this, mate?

[LukeFRC]

I'm not sure if there is a language difference between english as used in Lithuania and english as used in britain.
finishing a question with " , mate? " tends to come across as a aggressive challenge rather than a friendly thing you would actually say to a mate.
just a thought on colloquialisms.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='561402' date='Aug 5 2009, 07:42 PM']I'm not sure if there is a language difference between english as used in Lithuania and english as used in britain.
finishing a question with " , mate? " tends to come across as a aggressive challenge rather than a friendly thing you would actually say to a mate.
just a thought on colloquialisms.[/quote]
I'd say 'mate' is usually friendly in British English but tone of voice can on occasion make it unfriendly.

[bassace]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='561402' date='Aug 5 2009, 07:42 PM']I'm not sure if there is a language difference between english as used in Lithuania and english as used in britain.
finishing a question with " , mate? " tends to come across as a aggressive challenge rather than a friendly thing you would actually say to a mate.
just a thought on colloquialisms.[/quote]

Yes, I find it a bit confrontational from someone I don't know. OK from a friend, perhaps.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bassace' post='561426' date='Aug 5 2009, 08:00 PM']Yes, I find it a bit confrontational from someone I don't know. OK from a friend, perhaps.[/quote]
I'm surprised at that. I'd take 'mate' as the standard form of address to someone (usually male but not necessarily male) who you didn't know by name. An alternative would be 'man'. Maybe it's a regional thing?

[EssentialTension]

And on the issue of 'feel' - I think someone with 'feel' can show it to others at least by example and insofar as they pick up on that 'feel' it can be said to have been taught and learned but nonetheless some have got it more than others.

[bassace]

I heard a covers band some time ago. They had a very young bass player who could play well and was note perfect. Trouble is, he had no drive, no feel. I bitterly regret never having spoken to him and said something along the lines - you're a very good bass player, you read well, you play the stuff well. But just take a moment to think what you are there for - to propell the whole band forward. So, relax a bit, enjoy your stuff and go for it.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='559635' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:50 PM']By the way, has anyone heard 'D'Angelo's album, which I think is called Voodoo (forgive me if I'm wrong), with Pino on bass. He has this style where the instruments are so far behind the beat, it actually sounds out of time. This has pi**sed off quite a few people, as it did me on certain tracks. Any opinions on this?[/quote]

It's absolutely brilliant and one of the most incredible groove albums ever. Also Raphael Saadiq on bass, plus D'Angelo on keyboard bass and Charlie Hunter on 8-string guitar. Essential listening!

Alex

[bozzbass]

This stuff about feel being learned or taught is really interesting. I favour the idea that it is learned BUT I have a bit of bonkers story about feel being 'taught'

A friend of mine recorded with a name producer in America. So the band are recording a fairly laid back track and the producer is quite forcefully in the drummer's face saying, 'You have to play this exactly this far (who knows how he measured it) behind the beat ... oh yeah and you have to be consistent because if you deviate for even a second we start again cos we are having this as a single take!!!!!!!' So this track took many takes and a good couple of hours of severe stress on the drummer's part to capture the exact laid back feel in a single take performance.

I suppose you could say that by the end of the day, the drummer had been taught(???) to play just behind the beat. I've been asked a few times to lay back or bring it forward, but I've never had anyone ride me like this about it.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Faithless' post='560484' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:15 PM']What's so " ?????? " about this, mate?[/quote]

I'm just a bit surprised you haven't picked up on the so-laid-back-is-it-out-of-time? feel on some tracks. I read an interview with Saadiq where he claims to have rattled a few cages with this, especially where certain artists have refused to work with him. For me, the album is genius, but does take some getting used to. That's just my opinion, though.

This clip of D'Angelo on YT is just about the funkiest/ feeliest thing ever:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4XI6LXCsH8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4XI6LXCsH8[/url]

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='bozzbass' post='561486' date='Aug 5 2009, 09:02 PM']This stuff about feel being learned or taught is really interesting. I favour the idea that it is learned BUT I have a bit of bonkers story about feel being 'taught'

A friend of mine recorded with a name producer in America. So the band are recording a fairly laid back track and the producer is quite forcefully in the drummer's face saying, 'You have to play this exactly this far (who knows how he measured it) behind the beat ... oh yeah and you have to be consistent because if you deviate for even a second we start again cos we are having this as a single take!!!!!!!' So this track took many takes and a good couple of hours of severe stress on the drummer's part to capture the exact laid back feel in a single take performance.

I suppose you could say that by the end of the day, the drummer had been taught(???) to play just behind the beat. I've been asked a few times to lay back or bring it forward, but I've never had anyone ride me like this about it.[/quote]

Back in the 80s when the LinnDrum ruled, I was playing with an original funk band. We were in the studio recording a track and the producer set a click and 'demanded' me and the drummer play exactly on the beat for the whole track. What was the point in using a drummer? Nightmare days. Fast forward to a few years ago, Nearly Dan had a great drummer who was obsessed with the whole D'Angelo-type thing and insisted we lay right back on certain tracks. He couldn't understand that the rest of the players couldn't 'get' it. Everyone just thought the song dragged. At what point does laying back affect the tempo? For me personally, it was uncomfortable.