Feel

[JTUK]

yes..the band either get it or they don't...too much thought and thinking will make it stilted, or, as you say uncomfortable..

If a drummer is going to do this, then they have to be very good at it and VERY solid time wise...otheriwise it goes all over the show, IMO..
A very good drummer will virtrually make you play certaiin things and others can just be playing at it..

Feel...it takes empathy..you can't just cop it..or if you can, you have it anyway...

[bozzbass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='561676' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:22 AM']Back in the 80s when the LinnDrum ruled, I was playing with an original funk band. We were in the studio recording a track and the producer set a click and 'demanded' me and the drummer play exactly on the beat for the whole track. What was the point in using a drummer? Nightmare days. Fast forward to a few years ago, Nearly Dan had a great drummer who was obsessed with the whole D'Angelo-type thing and insisted we lay right back on certain tracks. He couldn't understand that the rest of the players couldn't 'get' it. Everyone just thought the song dragged. At what point does laying back affect the tempo? For me personally, it was uncomfortable.[/quote]


[quote name='JTUK' post='561684' date='Aug 6 2009, 08:29 AM']yes..the band either get it or they don't...too much thought and thinking will make it stilted, or, as you say uncomfortable..

If a drummer is going to do this, then they have to be very good at it and VERY solid time wise...otheriwise it goes all over the show, IMO..
A very good drummer will virtrually make you play certaiin things and others can just be playing at it..

Feel...it takes empathy..you can't just cop it..or if you can, you have it anyway...[/quote]


Pete

So your experience in the 80's sounds similar to my friend. It's interesting where you ask though 'What was the point in using a drummer?'. Musicians come up with this a lot when they are asked to play something like a machine, 'why don't you just use a machine?'. I think this comes from an overall human anxiety that occurs in the west cos we are nervous we will lose our jobs to automation. I think to ask this question overlooks an important part of music. Musicians can tend to view music functionally ie these notes go in these metrically assigned points in time to create 'feel'. Audiences however experience music sonically and emotionally, many of them couldn't care less about function or craft, they just want to get down, feel angsty, have a laugh, curl up with a loved one, whatever.

One role of the producer is to bring the audiences ears into a music making environment. The point is this, 'why use a drummer?' Because the the producer, the band, whoever wants to have the sonic quality of a drummer because they realise audiences either want it or should be given it. So why ask a drummer to play like a machine? Again, because the sound of a drummer COMBINED with a machine 'feel' is worth exploring, it might be what audiences want or should be given.

Where you and JTUK say about it feeling uncomfortable, I agree, as a player it can be drag and you have to be able to realise when it's not working. But on the other hand we have to try out uncomfortable things to see if they are worth pursuing. In your case of the 80's 'drummer playing like a Linn' it clearly was worth it, cos now we have some great drummers who can 'feel' like a machine, for example the guy out of Bloc Party.

I think what we should really be worried about is how 'human' machines can be taught to feel these days.

[JTUK]

Bozzbass
best drummer and musician I ever played with went on to play with Groove Armada.
His feel is amazing and his sound checks an education, but he had to play pretty square in that band as far as I can tell...
Now, I haven't listened to them much but I get the feeling his talent was sort of wasted in a sense...or rather not utilised
as all I heard him play was simple loops..

But he was glad of the gig, I am sure.. and he has the discipline/talent to do that sort of thing, of course.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='bozzbass' post='561834' date='Aug 6 2009, 11:25 AM']Pete

So your experience in the 80's sounds similar to my friend. It's interesting where you ask though 'What was the point in using a drummer?'. Musicians come up with this a lot when they are asked to play something like a machine, 'why don't you just use a machine?'. I think this comes from an overall human anxiety that occurs in the west cos we are nervous we will lose our jobs to automation. I think to ask this question overlooks an important part of music. Musicians can tend to view music functionally ie these notes go in these metrically assigned points in time to create 'feel'. Audiences however experience music sonically and emotionally, many of them couldn't care less about function or craft, they just want to get down, feel angsty, have a laugh, curl up with a loved one, whatever.

One role of the producer is to bring the audiences ears into a music making environment. The point is this, 'why use a drummer?' Because the the producer, the band, whoever wants to have the sonic quality of a drummer because they realise audiences either want it or should be given it. So why ask a drummer to play like a machine? Again, because the sound of a drummer COMBINED with a machine 'feel' is worth exploring, it might be what audiences want or should be given.

Where you and JTUK say about it feeling uncomfortable, I agree, as a player it can be drag and you have to be able to realise when it's not working. But on the other hand we have to try out uncomfortable things to see if they are worth pursuing. In your case of the 80's 'drummer playing like a Linn' it clearly was worth it, cos now we have some great drummers who can 'feel' like a machine, for example the guy out of Bloc Party.

I think what we should really be worried about is how 'human' machines can be taught to feel these days.[/quote]

Very good point.

[bozzbass]

[quote name='JTUK' post='561945' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:25 PM']Bozzbass
best drummer and musician I ever played with went on to play with Groove Armada.
His feel is amazing and his sound checks an education, but he had to play pretty square in that band as far as I can tell...
Now, I haven't listened to them much but I get the feeling his talent was sort of wasted in a sense...or rather not utilised
as all I heard him play was simple loops..

But he was glad of the gig, I am sure.. and he has the discipline/talent to do that sort of thing, of course.[/quote]

Was his talent wasted? Well he got paid, and I'm sure Groove Armada's fans don't think so, they were busy grooving to his 'pretty square' feel. Why were they doing this? Cos of the uncomfortable yet valuable groundwork laid down in the 80's by Pete Academy. Of course, as you rightly point out, the fans don't get to hear the full range of this guy's ability for 'feel' utilised in the GA context. Why is that a bad thing though? The guys talent is not being called into question or placed at risk; you, he and the GA crew know he's a monster player.

Hope this isn't too off topic, after all this thread is about learning feel. My overall point is that I don't believe people 'have' natural feel, it's not something essential to humans. We learn it from engaging in all the different aspects of musical culture.

The question then comes, if we learn it, can it be taught? I think the answer is yes, but with difficulty. Why is it difficult? Because in the west, the music we have and the teaching of it comes out of a notated tradition, and the notation we have is insufficient to capture and communicate 'feel'. We are impoverished with ways to communicate feel. The other problem is we generally associate teaching with text based teaching materials. Hence when we learn through some other mode, like jamming, it suddenly becomes 'oh you know, I just picked it up' whilst shrugging the shoulders.

I do think the notion that feel cannot be taught is ideological (not to mention racist but we won't go there). In the west we want to believe our jobs are not threatened by 'unfeeling' machines. Also western art traditions are based in a 19th centuary idea that art eminates from a single human authority or author who is usually an extraordinary genius with abilities beyond the reach of the normal man. There are cultures where a notion like this is considered bizarre.

It's not that I don't value human characteristics, of course I do. What I don't buy is that 'square' Linn drum machines are 'unfeeling', and humans bloom with natural 'feeling'. Rather they just 'feel' different. Mike Elizondo describes the way he learned different feels by playing with a drum machine in a systematic way. He would set the swing feel to whatever amount and then concsiously play ahead, on and behind the beat by varying amounts. As Pete said, doing it this way may lead you to some uncomfortable places, but isn't that what education is. Becoming used to what was once uncomfortable. Do you remember those big blisters you had on your fingers when you first started to play?? Ouch!!!

bit of a rant there, sorry guys. I'm actually writing a masters dissertation about some of this stuff right now so it's kinda at the forefront of my mind.

Edited August 6, 2009 by bozzbass

[bozzbass]

Just checking this D'Angelo record on Spotify. I totally see hear what you mean about the feel of it, super lazy and rubbery, it is very good though. Some of the stuff by Talib Kwali is like this, bass lines that really sound out at first, but after a while you just groove on their wonkiness.

[LukeFRC]

really interesting this....I've never really thought too hard about it.

Drummer I play with the most is really tight, it means I can vary my placing relative to him to alter the dynamic of the song as we play.
Another drummer I play with if I play it anywhere but directly on the beat will go out of time. Very very annoying.

[Pete Academy]

Another master of feel is Verdine White of EWF. But saying that, I read that they would spend an awful long time getting that feel just right for each track.

[Pete Academy]

Another thing I've noticed is that when younger people, especially, try out a bass or drumkit in the shop, everything is played as fast as possible. I just want to say 'slow down! It's harder to get the feel right on slower tempos. And I NEVER hear anyone play a fairly slow slap line.

[TimR]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='562161' date='Aug 6 2009, 06:55 PM']Another thing I've noticed is that when younger people, especially, try out a bass or drumkit in the shop, everything is played as fast as possible. I just want to say 'slow down! It's harder to get the feel right on slower tempos. And I NEVER hear anyone play a fairly slow slap line.[/quote]

That's just their hormones. 'Young' people do EVERYTHING too fast. I did when I was young. Again this brings to the table the idea that feel is a maturity thing. When we hear a musician with great feel I guess we sometimes say that they have a very mature aspect to their playing.

While the drums and Bass may lay back on the beat, someone, possibly the Vocalist or another solo instrument, maybe even the hi-hat needs to play on or ahead of the beat so that the beat is marked out, otherwise the laid back feel is lost. It takes a lot of skill to lay back all the drums and not slow and even more skill to leave a soloist to carry the tempo

Edited August 6, 2009 by TimR

[bozzbass]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='562145' date='Aug 6 2009, 06:31 PM']really interesting this....I've never really thought too hard about it.[/quote]

This is kinda what i mean. We don't think about it cos in the west the tools to we have to capture it, analyse it and communicate it aren't really up to the job. As someone said earlier, the best we can do is put 'swing' at the top of the sheet music. I know many on this site don't read, but oddly this effects non readers too. It has fostered an overall attitude in our musical culture where its 'normal' to never really think about feel too hard. As a result we talk about it using remarks like, 'oh such and such has great feel' or 'oh just go for it' or 'swing it' and leave it at that. Getting feel right is important but remarks like these don't treat it as important.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='562157' date='Aug 6 2009, 06:50 PM']Another master of feel is Verdine White of EWF. But saying that, I read that they would spend an awful long time getting that feel just right for each track.[/quote]

This to me seems more on the money. They recognised the importance of getting the right feel and so worked hard. As a result of this work, I dare say over time they developed a vocabulary and tools for capturing and communicating feel. As you say they came to 'master' it rather than 'just going for it'.

[redstriper]

Feel is not an intellectual thing for me at all, it's a spiritual vibration.
Over the years I have learned to relax and allow it to flow, rather than actively trying to bring it on.
It's almost like meditation and when I'm in the zone, the music flows through me like I'm channeling it from a higher place.
It was scary when I first found the zone and many musicians back away from it when they feel it because it's beyond their normal way of working.
But if a group of musicians allow that feel to grow between them, they can create magic and if the audience picks up on the feel it will be extra special, like a natural mystic flowing through the air.
I'm only really interested in music that has that feel and you can't learn or teach it - you just open the door and let it in.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='TimR' post='562170' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:10 PM']That's just their hormones. 'Young' people do EVERYTHING too fast. I did when I was young. Again this brings to the table the idea that feel is a maturity thing. When we hear a musician with great feel I guess we sometimes say that they have a very mature aspect to their playing.

While the drums and Bass may lay back on the beat, someone, possibly the Vocalist or another solo instrument, maybe even the hi-hat needs to play on or ahead of the beat so that the beat is marked out, otherwise the laid back feel is lost. It takes a lot of skill to lay back all the drums and not slow and even more skill to leave a soloist to carry the tempo [/quote]

That's a great comment.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='redstriper' post='562225' date='Aug 6 2009, 08:26 PM']Feel is not an intellectual thing for me at all, it's a spiritual vibration.
Over the years I have learned to relax and allow it to flow, rather than actively trying to bring it on.
It's almost like meditation and when I'm in the zone, the music flows through me like I'm channeling it from a higher place.
It was scary when I first found the zone and many musicians back away from it when they feel it because it's beyond their normal way of working.
But if a group of musicians allow that feel to grow between them, they can create magic and if the audience picks up on the feel it will be extra special, like a natural mystic flowing through the air.
I'm only really interested in music that has that feel and you can't learn or teach it - you just open the door and let it in.[/quote]

That's interesting, because when the aforementioned drummer wanted me to play behind the beat, I was nervous and was over-concentrating instead of just being myself. I've never had aproblem with how I play - the drummer kicks in and away we go - but when someone forces you to analyse yuor playing, it's quite a scary situation.

[Pete Academy]

And your grammar and spelling go amiss, too.

[bozzbass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='562345' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:35 PM']That's interesting, because when the aforementioned drummer wanted me to play behind the beat, I was nervous and was over-concentrating instead of just being myself. I've never had aproblem with how I play - the drummer kicks in and away we go - but when someone forces you to analyse yuor playing, it's quite a scary situation.[/quote]

It sounds as if you got nervous because you were being asked to do something new or in a way that that was new to you at the time. Do you think if you had spent more time 'consciously' learning or working on feel stuff - that is moving around the beat - rather than just kicking in you would have been less nervous?

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='558773' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:53 PM']While there is a smart circularity to that statement, if you have any experience of teaching musicianship alongside teaching bass (and I have years of experience) one would have to disagree.
I have a myriad of tiny defintitions about what details to impart in the way a style or line is approached and ultimately taught. Ask any of my students (and there are a few on here) it's something that I place emphasis on and I do have a ton of ideas to explain how to create a feel. I have a very detailed understanding of what elements go into creating a feel and if I can blushingly say, it is the thing I have singularly been complimented upon the most throughout my career. Everyone always says to me "lovely feel"

So yes it can be taught, and definitely it can be learned.

Just not by everbody[/quote]

I think you should be seconded to Brighton for a long term sabbatical stay

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='51m0n' post='562401' date='Aug 6 2009, 11:37 PM']I think you should be seconded to Brighton for a long term sabbatical stay [/quote]

Lol
funnily enough I've got a gig there tomorrow..
and I've got friends in Brighton so I can always justify a visit....

Edited August 6, 2009 by jakesbass

[MacDaddy]

disagree with the 'not slow = no feel' thing.
Tempo can create it's own feel, Pat Metheny and Al di Meola immediately spring to mind as tasteful players (albeit guitarists) with feel, even during their sizzling lead runs.

[redstriper]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='558773' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:53 PM']Everyone always says to me "lovely feel"[/quote]

blimey.

[endorka]

[quote name='bozzbass' post='562179' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:32 PM']We don't think about it cos in the west the tools to we have to capture it, analyse it and communicate it aren't really up to the job. As someone said earlier, the best we can do is put 'swing' at the top of the sheet music ... It has fostered an overall attitude in our musical culture where its 'normal' to never really think about feel too hard.[/quote]

While there may be some truth in what you say, I feel you may have overstated the point - I have a different experience of Western music. There are many traditional genres, e.g Celtic, Irish, Hungarian, with a very strong aural tradition where the songs and feel are passed down through generations of musicians. This can be a fairly haphazard process, but fortunately the works of collectors of traditional music (latterly using recording devices) preserve what may have been lost.

Similarly, the "feel" for classical music was traditionally passed down from teacher to student, and continues to be done this way, even though recording devices preserve what we already know and facilitate the process. Naturally, errors will creep in over time with an aural tradition, affecting the eventual interpretation, but who is to say they are errors? Perhaps evolution would also describe the process?

I spend a lot of my time as a musician and band leader attempting to create the environment in which appropriate "feel" can develop; sometimes I succeed, and when I do, the outcome is as redstriper describes. But it is not all coming from me... as Newton said, it is achieved by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Edited August 7, 2009 by endorka

[YouMa]

I dont think you can teach feel.I love funksouljazzreggae bass and stuff like that,the emotive force behind that style of music makes me go crazy,i can feel this music in the way i walk and commnicate every day of my life.I like iron maiden but steve harris never moves me to tears even though he is an awesome player,im sure he moves some people this much though,its different strokes for different folks.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='bozzbass' post='562364' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:51 PM']It sounds as if you got nervous because you were being asked to do something new or in a way that that was new to you at the time. Do you think if you had spent more time 'consciously' learning or working on feel stuff - that is moving around the beat - rather than just kicking in you would have been less nervous?[/quote]

You're probably right, there.

[bozzbass]

[quote name='endorka' post='562458' date='Aug 7 2009, 01:23 AM']While there may be some truth in what you say, I feel you may have overstated the point - I have a different experience of Western music. There are many traditional genres, e.g Celtic, Irish, Hungarian, with a very strong aural tradition where the songs and feel are passed down through generations of musicians. This can be a fairly haphazard process, but fortunately the works of collectors of traditional music (latterly using recording devices) preserve what may have been lost.

Similarly, the "feel" for classical music was traditionally passed down from teacher to student, and continues to be done this way, even though recording devices preserve what we already know and facilitate the process. Naturally, errors will creep in over time with an aural tradition, affecting the eventual interpretation, but who is to say they are errors? Perhaps evolution would also describe the process?

I spend a lot of my time as a musician and band leader attempting to create the environment in which appropriate "feel" can develop; sometimes I succeed, and when I do, the outcome is as redstriper describes. But it is not all coming from me... as Newton said, it is achieved by standing on the shoulders of giants.[/quote]

Of course I recognse what you are saying about the evolution of feel that occurs in the oral handing down both of folk music and interpretation in classical music. You may be right I've overstated something here where I say notation has fostered a culture where we don't think about this stuff. But then I wonder have I? As many posts in this thread show, we really struggle when trying to communicate 'feel' to each other. It often comes down to little throw away remarks like 'swing', or it's experiences which come across as intensely personal and so are hard for others to understand. If we want to teach feel - which some on this forum, including me, believe can be done - these are not up to the job.

I suppose my point is that I don't think feel is 'mystical' or 'out there' or even 'in people but not machines'. However our overall culture, one based on technology, rationalised commodity and the written word, would have us believe this is how it is. The result is we don't think about it, or don't want to think about it too closely.

As you say, oral traditions of music do think about this stuff closely and do communicate feel through verbal and non-verbal means - like the playing of instruments and dance. This is a form of teaching which should be preserved and respected as such. Without wishing to sound too dramatic about it, maybe music and the arts are one way for us in the west to stay connected with feel. What I don't think, as Pete Academy said earlier, that having shops full of written music with the word 'swing' at the top being bought by clueless piano teachers is going to acheive that. Neither will it be acheived by insistence that feel can't be taught or intellectualised.

I know there are some teachers on here, as endorka may well be. How do you guys go about teaching feel?

Edited August 7, 2009 by bozzbass

[ironside1966]

Feel is something that can be learnt, I think that us bassists like to thing at times that we have a special gift from god sent to a chosen few but in most cases mine included it a product of hard work and practice.

When people are brought up around music it feels natural to them so it makes it easier to play, where some of the Eastern, Asian and Latin rhythms can go against Weston people are used too so they are more difficult to learn and the variations can get lost on us, it is also true with scales.