Help with DIY 4x10 needed

[richrips]

I have a bad back and a peavey stack so i'm hoping to make my own lightweight 4x10. here's what i'm thinking so far:

celestion bn10-300x speakers in a lightweight (birch ply?) cab.

questions:

1.has anyone made a cab like this themselves (using these speakers) for more focused brain-picking?

2.does the weight of the cabinet affect the sound?i'm a little dubious about the abilities of a lightweight cab to throw air as convincingly as a heavy cab?which leads to my next question...

3.does the thickness and weight of the ply used make much difference? what ply to use? where is a good place to buy a suitably light/stiff ply as opposed to the ultra heavy peavey ply?

4. is there much merit in a half-ported/half-sealed 4x10 cab? i've heard sealed=punchier and ported=potentially more low end?

5. are there any specific light-weight cab plans out there? if not which plans are going to suit me best?

Phew!

i apologise in advance as i am sure that these bits of information are buried in various threads, but forums are about chatting and i'm getting really really confused searching through ancient threads of "not quite what i'm after".

i'm sure someone has already attempted this idea as it works out about £250 for the materials which make up most super-light, super-expensive which cost 4 times as much!

any help/links/pics/knowledge much appreciated!

sound wise, i want to be between juan nelsons sound (ben harper) and waterfalls (TLC) if that is in any way relevant....

Thankyou,

Rich

[alexclaber]

[quote name='richrips' post='562748' date='Aug 7 2009, 01:13 PM']2.does the weight of the cabinet affect the sound?i'm a little dubious about the abilities of a lightweight cab to throw air as convincingly as a heavy cab?which leads to my next question...[/quote]

No. It's stiffness/rigidity that matters, not weight.

[quote name='richrips' post='562748' date='Aug 7 2009, 01:13 PM']3.does the thickness and weight of the ply used make much difference? what ply to use? where is a good place to buy a suitably light/stiff ply as opposed to the ultra heavy peavey ply?[/quote]

With any thinner lighter ply you will need to add bracing to get sufficient stiffness. You'll need to hunt round your local suppliers to find decent ply, much of it is pretty awful quality.

[quote name='richrips' post='562748' date='Aug 7 2009, 01:13 PM']4. is there much merit in a half-ported/half-sealed 4x10 cab? i've heard sealed=punchier and ported=potentially more low end?[/quote]

No, very bad idea as response of each half will be out of phase in the lows and a speaker that likes ported cabs rarely likes sealed cabs.

[quote name='richrips' post='562748' date='Aug 7 2009, 01:13 PM']5. are there any specific light-weight cab plans out there? if not which plans are going to suit me best?[/quote]

Yes. Here: [url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/"]http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/[/url]

and here: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fearful%E2%84%A2_12/6_&_15/6"]http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fea...12/6_&_15/6[/url]

No 4x10"s because those designers believe that a 4x10" isn't that great an idea and I'd be inclined to agree. I'd look at the 15/6.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Don't build a 4x10. It's the poster child for how a speaker cabinet should not be built. Do a pair of 2x10, stack them with the drivers in a vertical line.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='562786' date='Aug 7 2009, 02:21 PM']Don't build a 4x10. It's the poster child for how a speaker cabinet should not be built. Do a pair of 2x10, stack them with the drivers in a vertical line.[/quote]

.... Unless you like 4x10's obviously!

[richrips]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='562786' date='Aug 7 2009, 02:21 PM']Don't build a 4x10. It's the poster child for how a speaker cabinet should not be built. Do a pair of 2x10, stack them with the drivers in a vertical line.[/quote]

which 2x10 plans would you recommend? i'm using a 1400watt crown power amp with a peavey alpha tube pre and would like a combination that is light but makes the most of the power? i like the reviews i've heard of the bn10 300x. seems to offer a decent bass response for a 10" driver.

thanks to everyone who has replied, there really is an amazing wealth of knowledge out there!

cheers,
rich

[lateralus462]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='562786' date='Aug 7 2009, 02:21 PM']Don't build a 4x10. It's the poster child for how a speaker cabinet should not be built. Do a pair of 2x10, stack them with the drivers in a vertical line.[/quote]

But has worked for god knows how many bass players?!! I actually like 4 x 10's as a cabinet, they may not be "correct" but they still sound good!

Edited August 7, 2009 by lateralus462

[alexclaber]

Two 2x10"s will sound the same as one 4x10" but be easier for you to hear due to the greater height, whilst your bandmates and audience will hear a much more consistent sound due to the better off-axis response. Same tone but more useful dispersion pattern.

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='richrips' post='562865' date='Aug 7 2009, 03:49 PM']which 2x10 plans would you recommend? i'm using a 1400watt crown power amp with a peavey alpha tube pre and would like a combination that is light but makes the most of the power? i like the reviews i've heard of the bn10 300x. seems to offer a decent bass response for a 10" driver.

thanks to everyone who has replied, there really is an amazing wealth of knowledge out there!

cheers,
rich[/quote]

with 1400w you don't need to make the most of the power, it can be madly inefficient and still be loud, but you are going to have trouble getting 4 10" speakers that will cope with that much power without farting out. Issue is using the power rather than making most of. Shiny new 15s and 12s have got the best capabilities in that respect.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='richrips' post='562865' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:49 AM']which 2x10 plans would you recommend?[/quote]
None. I only do high sensitivity cabs myself. But if you do go with a standard style 2x10 make absolutely sure you use the driver recommended for it. Choosing a driver and then designing a cab to work with it can be done, but only if you possess a rather high skill level in acoustical engineering. If you don't leave the designing and driver choices to one who does.
[quote]But has worked for god knows how many bass players?!! I actually like 4 x 10's as a cabinet, they may not be "correct" but they still sound good![/quote]One might also conclude that a Ford Focus is the epitome of automobile engineering expertise... if one had only a Yugo to compare it to.

[lateralus462]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563006' date='Aug 7 2009, 07:10 PM']One might also conclude that a Ford Focus is the epitome of automobile engineering expertise... if one had only a Yugo to compare it to. [/quote]

Maybe the OP likes the sound of 4 x 10's - therefore you telling the guy NOT to build one is just a little bit rude. That was my point - I didn't want to get into a discussion on the finer points of speaker design. Yours is an opinion, but is not nescessarily right for everyone. It doesn't matter whether it's a Ford a Yugo, a Ferrari or my mother in law - someone out there will enjoy riding in them.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='lateralus462' post='563038' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:32 PM']It doesn't matter whether it's a Ford a Yugo, a Ferrari or my mother in law - someone out there will enjoy riding in them.[/quote]

I'll take the Ferrari please
... and that's without even having a proper look at the mother-in-law!

[lateralus462]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='563046' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:36 PM']I'll take the Ferrari please
... and that's without even having a proper look at the mother-in-law![/quote]

trust me - it's a wise choice!

Edited August 7, 2009 by lateralus462

[Mr.T]

[quote name='lateralus462' post='563049' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:38 PM']trust me - it's a wise choice![/quote]

[Protium]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='562786' date='Aug 7 2009, 02:21 PM']Don't build a 4x10. It's the poster child for how a speaker cabinet should not be built. Do a pair of 2x10, stack them with the drivers in a vertical line.[/quote]

What about a vertical 410?

The manufacturers of 4x10's must be doing something right or else no one would buy them...

Edited August 7, 2009 by Protium

[lateralus462]

[quote name='Protium' post='563058' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:52 PM']What about a vertical 410?[/quote]

Might be a bit impractical to move? Although it'll only be the same height as an 8 x 10.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Protium' post='563058' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:52 PM']What about a vertical 410?[/quote]

Should work as well, less modular though. Probably best staggering them a bit, get some width to put an amp on. Like a mini GS412.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Protium' post='563058' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:52 PM']The manufacturers of 4x10's must be doing something right or else no one would buy them...[/quote]

It's not like a sea change is being suggested - just a different shape. It's a bit like the hordes of cars running on low profile, 17"-19" wheels because they look good and the market likes that - but they're ride and handle better on a smaller wheel. Marketeers 1, Engineers 0.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Protium' post='563058' date='Aug 7 2009, 03:52 PM']What about a vertical 410?

The manufacturers of 4x10's must be doing something right or else no one would buy them...[/quote]
Cab manufacturers build what they believe is most likely to sell. What's most likely to sell is what 'looks right'. Unfortunately what please the eyes the most pleases the ears the least, but we are creatures who are dominated by the visual sense. If blind bassplayers had a standard 4x10 and a vertical 4x10 put before them to choose from the vertical 4x10 would win every time. Discriminating sighted players would probably lean towards the vertical 4x10 as well, if they had the option, but the marketeers don't make that option available to them to make the comparison.
BTW, said blind bassplayers would also tend to prefer the vertical 4x10 to an 8x10, though not by such a wide margin. That's because to a very large degree what makes an 8x10 sound like an 8x10 is the height of the driver array. Since the vertical 4x10 would be the same height it would share many of the same acoustic properties, though by being narrower it would have even better dispersion.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563107' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:01 PM']Since the vertical 4x10 would be the same height it would share many of the same acoustic properties, though by being narrower it would have even better dispersion.[/quote]

Interesting...

Could you please explain (in laymans terms) what is a better dispersion pattern, and why it is better.

(I am sure I am not the only person reading this that doesn't know the answer).

Thanks.

[Stewart]

Having multiple drivers and different box shapes affects the dispersion (or coverage).

Placing multiple drivers vertically might be expected to extend the coverage vertically (ceiling to floor), but it actually greatly extends the coverage left to right.

It varies with frequency too - generally drivers become more directional as the frequency increases, so you can improve the dispersion of a single driver by using a smaller second driver and crossing-over to that where the larger bass driver starts to get too directional.

If you think in terms of lighting, a vertical 4 x10 might produce light like a floodlight (with barn-doors top and bottom) and a 4 x 10 traditional would be more like a spot...

[lateralus462]

but then again at some point someone is going to want to add more speakers - in fact it is fairly usual for someone to want to add, say a 15" cab or another 4 x 10 to their rig - a vertical 4 x 10 wouldn't be very modular, which is why I would guess they aren't made - same reason why the majority of cabs are 8ohm as well - people like to mix and match.

in my opinion any problems with dispersion aren't really a problem in a band enviroment either - I can't imagine that anyone playing through a decent efficient 4 x 10 driven by a decent amp would ever struggle to make theselves heard in pretty much any practical situation (this has been my experience and I have played with some f**k off loud bands)

Edited August 8, 2009 by lateralus462

[Stewart]

[quote name='lateralus462' post='563256' date='Aug 8 2009, 01:38 AM']but then again at some point someone is going to want to add more speakers
...[/quote]

Not me!
I've got a pair of 1 x 12s and have no desire for anything larger or heavier.

I'm not evangelising, or promoting the use of any particular setup - I was simply attempting (poorly, no doubt ) to explain dispersion.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='lateralus462' post='563256' date='Aug 7 2009, 08:38 PM']but then again at some point someone is going to want to add more speakers - in fact it is fairly usual for someone to want to add, say a 15" cab or another 4 x 10 to their rig -[/quote]
Also done on the basis of looks, not utility. The number one deficiency of commercial bass cabs is that they're too small for the drivers contained. One can build a 2x10 with the same low frequency output capability as the average 4x10 by simply making the cab large enough. So why don't manufacturers make cabs as large as they should? Because the average player would think 'it doesn't look right' not stuffing so many drivers into as small a box as possible that it takes a shoehorn and a good load of lubricant to get them to fit. A pair of well engineered 2x10s would deliver all anyone could actually need. [quote]in my opinion any problems with dispersion aren't really a problem in a band enviroment either -[/quote]That depends on how much of the audience you're content to have hearing the same tone that you do. With a 4x10 few will. You can't hear the mids and highs that pass by you at calf level, so you crank them higher. That means the small segment of audience within the cab's 'sweet spot' get nailed with excess mids and highs, while the rest don't hear them even as well as you do. Tilt the cab back and you can hear the mids and highs, but then no one else can. That's one reason why the 8x10 or stacked 4x10 is so popular amongst those who use them, the drivers are high enough so that you and the audience within the sweet spot hear the same thing. A vertical 4x10's/vertically aligned 2x210 sweet spot is literally twice as wide as that of an 8x10 or stacked 4x10s, making it a win/win rig.

[JTUK]

great..just as a lot of people want to go smaller and end up with modular..someone suggests a column...and if the OP has back issues they don't need to be trying to potentially twisting an elongated cab into the car.
If we have a van then less of an issue
Personally, for the OP question, I wouldn't bother with DIY, they mostly look poor anyway, regardless of the sonic qualities... just get two lighter weight 2x10's..there are plenty out there upto around 50lbs...

If I could justify the money..I'd look at the Bergs, either the HS or AE versions are light enough IMV.

[lateralus462]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563264' date='Aug 8 2009, 02:27 AM']. A vertical 4x10's/vertically aligned 2x210 sweet spot is literally twice as wide as that of an 8x10 or stacked 4x10s, making it a win/win rig.[/quote]

So, you have twice as many people sat in the sweet spot, but it still isn't going to encompass the whole audience is it? not win win - maybe a slightly better solution but not the ultimate - now a cab wither side of the stage would be, but then again that would be a PA wouldn't it (but then again when using PA support where will the sound engineer sit the bass in the stereo mix? not dead centre I'm sure) To be honest I PREFER the sound of a 4 x 10 coupled with a 15 - not based on looks, based on SOUND seriously I am one of the least gear snobby people out there - I could not give a f**k whether my rig is 6' tall and 3" wide or the size of a shoebox as long as it sounds good.

- you assume that the bass sound from the amp is some way bad. Yes therre will be differences out front depending on where you stand, but I can't say I have been to a gig and thought, oh that bass sounds off - must be the dispersion of the cab, but I have been to plenty of gigs with bassists using 4 x 10's on there own and been impressed with the bass sound.