Fussiness. I Think I May Go Mad...

[kevbass]

[quote name='BeLow' post='563348' date='Aug 8 2009, 10:21 AM']The issues here may be with the bass but probably more in your head.[/quote]

+1, I went through something similar, until one day I sat down and realised I was wasting my time and a lot of money buying bass after bass after bass when in truth I would have done just as well with one or two. I didnt [b]need[/b] half of the things on a bass that I had convinced my self would of make me a better player. I sold off all the gear I didnt need, nice basses top end stuff but to be honest it was just over the top as far as my situation went. I stuck with what I was left with, and spent my time improving my technique and stopped splitting hairs over minor issues with the bass. As a result I stopped worrying about whether or not my gear was perfect and my playing improved a lot and I became more of a versatile player in that I would pick up my bass and play it happily without worrying about whether it did this or had that, I also saved a lot of money and didnt feel so guilty about wasting my money which, looking back, was what I was doing. I think it can get to a point where GAS becomes unhealthy, not just affecting your wallet but the quality of your playing (well it was in my case anyways). My advice Josh is to just persevere with what you have, the grass isnt always greener on the other side and you might find yourself just going round in circles as far as this issue goes, hope this helped.

[Josh]

[quote name='kevbass' post='563713' date='Aug 8 2009, 08:07 PM']My advice Josh is to just persevere with what you have, the grass isnt always greener on the other side and you might find yourself just going round in circles as far as this issue goes, hope this helped.[/quote]

I really can't persevere with the Smith, I probably won't play it until it's sold or traded, I know this bass is not for me.

[thodrik]

I used to be very fussy in terms of action, My 1979 P-bass that I've had since the age of 14 has always had a stupidly low action, it plays like a dream and I can do all kinds of slappy, tappy stuff on it. I used to compare every bass to it, and assumed that if the action on another bass was higher then that bass was somehow inferior to the Precision.

I ended up getting a Vigier, and actually went through a period quite like the topic of this thread. I went through almost a year of thinking that the higher action of the Vigier made it not as good as what I already had. It was a slow process but I'm so glad I stuck with the Vigier, its an outstanding bass. To be honest, I probably bought the bass before I was good enough to play it.

I now think that while its easier to play flashy stuff with a low action, tone is so much better and clearer if the action is higher, especially if you are digging in. If you can master even a slightly higher action, you will be all the better for it.

I think that if you going through boutique bass after boutique bass and are feeling let down, then I suggest getting a custom Fender/Sadowsky/Lakland type thing, as those are top quality basses that are very familiar and generally pretty easy to get a very low action on. Fretting about basses and gear just gets in the way of playing, just find an instrument you like and commit to it.

Also, I have tried raising the action on the Fender, but the bridge is kinda wrecked and the string saddles collapse back down when you dig in after you have raised the action. Now I know why the action has always been so low!

Edited August 8, 2009 by thodrik

[MythSte]

Ive been there Josh, i didnt get quite as high up the scale as you (Bongo, Bacchus and Lakland where my "high enders") And all i can say is dont fear! Whenever i got a new bass i'd sit down and fettle and toy with pre-amps and new strings and all sorts.

however, I got into a band i [b]simply enjoy playing music[/b] with. This changed everything! I bought a mexican 75RI Jazz because it felt lovely. I had a grand to play with but this 450 quid beauty was it for me. The big deal for me now is that i can turn up to a gig and plug into any old piece of crap and i'll enjoy playing. Cos it feels nice and because i enjoy the music! For recording I knock the action a bit higher to round off my tone and thats about that.

So i suppose what im asking is what are you doing playing bass? I dont even nearly want to put you off, but are you just sitting at home playing runs and getting frustrated that you "dont have that sizzle at 1.3k" or something? If you couldnt hear yourself on stage or couldnt get your bass to sit in a mix i'd understand, but it seems your getting frustrated over what is essentially tiny things, maybe its time for a break?

I couldnt ever imagine having a bass to play to myself all the time, let alone a 3 grand one! If your happy doing this then fair play to you, but more food for thought i guess!

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='MythSte' post='563911' date='Aug 9 2009, 12:26 AM']Ive been there Josh, i didnt get quite as high up the scale as you (Bongo, Bacchus and Lakland where my "high enders") And all i can say is dont fear! Whenever i got a new bass i'd sit down and fettle and toy with pre-amps and new strings and all sorts.

however, I got into a band i [b]simply enjoy playing music[/b] with. This changed everything! I bought a mexican 75RI Jazz because it felt lovely. I had a grand to play with but this 450 quid beauty was it for me. The big deal for me now is that i can turn up to a gig and plug into any old piece of crap and i'll enjoy playing. Cos it feels nice and because i enjoy the music! For recording I knock the action a bit higher to round off my tone and thats about that.

So i suppose what im asking is what are you doing playing bass? I dont even nearly want to put you off, but are you just sitting at home playing runs and getting frustrated that you "dont have that sizzle at 1.3k" or something? If you couldnt hear yourself on stage or couldnt get your bass to sit in a mix i'd understand, but it seems your getting frustrated over what is essentially tiny things, maybe its time for a break?

I couldnt ever imagine having a bass to play to myself all the time, let alone a 3 grand one! If your happy doing this then fair play to you, but more food for thought i guess![/quote]
+1

Lot of good questions asked & points raised in there! Doesn't matter how long you've been playing, what kind of music you play, what gear you have, how it's set up etc .. the whole process starts in your head. It's all about getting our thinking right when it comes to making music I suppose.. More often than not, the gear gets in the way!

I used to see that situation a lot when I managed bands for a living.. The amount of times they'd complain because they couldn't hear themselves properly during a gig was untrue.. [i]"The gig was crap because i couldn't hear my self in the monitors"[/i] was the usual refrain.. And that despite the fact that the PA was usually quite decent and had a seperate mixer for the monitors..

So I always used to say to the bands that if The Beatles could play to 50,000 people at Shea Stadium in 1965 without any monitors, then they should be able to play brilliantly to 50 people at The Barfly (or wherever) with or without being able to hear themselves on stage and without complaining!

[OldGit]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='564000' date='Aug 9 2009, 09:03 AM']+1

Lot of good questions asked & points raised in there! Doesn't matter how long you've been playing, what kind of music you play, what gear you have, how it's set up etc .. the whole process starts in your head. It's all about getting our thinking right when it comes to making music I suppose.. More often than not, the gear gets in the way!

I used to see that situation a lot when I managed bands for a living.. The amount of times they'd complain because they couldn't hear themselves properly during a gig was untrue.. [i]"The gig was crap because i couldn't hear my self in the monitors"[/i] was the usual refrain.. And that despite the fact that the PA was usually quite decent and had a seperate mixer for the monitors..

So I always used to say to the bands that if The Beatles could play to 50,000 people at Shea Stadium in 1965 without any monitors, then they should be able to play brilliantly to 50 people at The Barfly (or wherever) with or without being able to hear themselves on stage and without complaining![/quote]

A little off topic but this idea of "It's ok to not be able to hear yourself" is somewhat outdated these days.
If you learn to play with decent monitoring and audibility and that goes away at a specific gig it is a serious handicap.
Sure the Beatles could do it without monitors because they had to. The concept didn't exist until Watkins WEM invented it in about 1968 but we all expect to be able to hear the vocal, drums and our own instrument these days.
If you can't hear things then the audio cues that many tunes depend upon dissapear and chaos ensues.
So I have a lot of sympathy for your estwhile band

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='OldGit' post='564004' date='Aug 9 2009, 09:35 AM']A little off topic but this idea of "It's ok to not be able to hear yourself" is somewhat outdated these days.
If you learn to play with decent monitoring and audibility and that goes away at a specific gig it is a serious handicap.
Sure the Beatles could do it without monitors because they had to. The concept didn't exist until Watkins WEM invented it in about 1968 but we all expect to be able to hear the vocal, drums and our own instrument these days.
If you can't hear things then the audio cues that many tunes depend upon dissapear and chaos ensues.
So I have a lot of sympathy for your estwhile band[/quote]
I know what you mean and it is a different world now so consequently, we have different expectations. But I also think there's a real tendency to get too hooked into the idea of everything having to be 'perfect' before we can make music and in my experience (both as a musician and a manager) it was far too easy to blame the gear rather than look at whether the attitude and performance is right...

[4000]

I agree with both of you. Thing is, a lot of this depends on the individual concerned. Our guitarist has an extremely good sense of pitch, and has a lot of confidence in his abilities. No matter what he's hearing, he sings and that's that (he does half our backing but is also lead singer/guitarist in another originals band). I've never heard him sing out of tune live, ever; monitors, no monitors, doesn't matter. However our singer and myself both pitch to what we're hearing. If we can't hear or the sound is confused, then we're struggling, our singer in particular. A couple of times when we've had no adequate monitoring he's ended up singing sections of the odd song in a different key entirely - not good! No amount of practice (although possibly serious amounts of gigging, which we don't have the luxury of) can sort that.

Anyway, back to the topic. I stated before that when you're not rehearsing/gigging you can often get obsessive about the little things that don't matter and I stick by it. The only way round that is to get out there and play; it changes your whole perspective (most of the time you're just trying to hear yourself!).

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='4000' post='564141' date='Aug 9 2009, 02:02 PM']Anyway, back to the topic. I stated before that when you're not rehearsing/gigging you can often get obsessive about the little things that don't matter and I stick by it. The only way round that is to get out there and play; it changes your whole perspective (most of the time you're just trying to hear yourself!).[/quote]

+1

I didn't mean it to become a discussion about monitoring.. More about your original point about becoming so obsessed that you can't see the wood for the trees.

[Delberthot]

[quote name='OldGit' post='563595' date='Aug 8 2009, 05:43 PM']Nuts can make a huge difference too ...[/quote]


C'mon - no one else find that funny?



Well nuts to the lot of you

[4000]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='564285' date='Aug 9 2009, 05:50 PM']+1

I didn't mean it to become a discussion about monitoring.. More about your original point about becoming so obsessed that you can't see the wood for the trees.[/quote]


Having just spent the last couple of hours fiddling with the action on my Sei and ending up back where I started, I utterly agree with that Nik.

Edited August 9, 2009 by 4000

[Gust0o]

[quote]C'mon - no one else find that funny?[/quote]

Nuts make a huge difference, or huge nuts make a difference?

Great minds

[molan]

Ok - so I'm having major guilt pangs here having traded the Smith to Josh & also having swapped the Sadowsky & then taking it back only to trade it to someone else!

As it happens the bass I acquired in exchange for the Sad was my current 'first-call' Spector NS5XL. Principal reason for liking it so much is very much that the action just suits me perfectly. I actually prefer the sound of the MTD but there's something about an NS5XL that really 'works' for me.

Consequently I can totally see where Josh is coming from here!

Josh - I think I know where 'our' old Sad is currently residing - I'll ping you a note

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='564000' date='Aug 9 2009, 09:03 AM']So I always used to say to the bands that if The Beatles could play to 50,000 people at Shea Stadium in 1965 without any monitors, then they should be able to play brilliantly to 50 people at The Barfly (or wherever) with or without being able to hear themselves on stage and without complaining![/quote]

Fortunately, the Shea Stadium audience couldn't actually HEAR the Beatles so, whatever their on-stage monitoring, any detrimental effects on their playing woudl have been irrelevant.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='566010' date='Aug 11 2009, 04:17 PM']Fortunately, the Shea Stadium audience couldn't actually HEAR the Beatles so, whatever their on-stage monitoring, any detrimental effects on their playing woudl have been irrelevant.[/quote]

[Gwilym]

[quote name='Josh' post='562938' date='Aug 7 2009, 05:47 PM']To clarify, my ideal set up is a stupidly low action, with minor buzz and the tension is usually quite low because I dig in a lot, and as such I compensate by playing a full step down.[/quote]

hi Josh, not sure why you are tuning a step down to compensate? I would have thought that tuning a step up to increase tension, if anything, would compensate for having "stupidly" low action?
I like low action, and I dig in, and like medium to light strings - and given the scenario you describe, would expect a little bit more that just minor string buzz - even if the bass had a perfect set up. Perhaps you have answered your own question by stating that it's stupidly low - maybe just raise it a little, it doesn't take much to make a considerable difference. How much time are you leaving the bass to settle, after adjusting the truss rod etc?
Have you tried following a set up guide? Gary Willis has a decent one on his web site, at least its a good bench mark to start from, even if it doesn't immediately yield the desired results.
I don't blame you for being distrustful of some luthiers, but if you do find a reputable one, then paying for the bass to have a decent set up is not going to devalue it.
The only other thing I would say is that once you start wanting very very low action, the tolerances are so much smaller, and factors like string gauge and tension, and a decent set up start contributing more to the end result, than if you had action like a high-wire.
It's a shame you don't get on with it, it looks like a sweet bass to me. Just as well I didn't trade my MTD with you, it doesn't sound like you'd have been happy with it either!

G

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='563090' date='Aug 7 2009, 09:37 PM']My 0.2c FWIW

Ken Smith designs his necks deliberately to have a little bit of give. It helps with getting the growl. I could never get super low action on any of mine because they weren't designed like that.[/quote]

My Smith has about the lowest action I've played on any bass - I seem to remember your old Smith that I played around at Platypus' place wasn't too shoddy either. I'd be interesed to know whether Ken Smith himself ever stated that he doesn't design his basses to have low action? It seems an odd design feature to deliberately incorporate, especially because my experience of Smith basses would indicate otherwise.


[quote name='OldGit' post='563120' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:14 PM']I'd suggest you take your bass to Eltham Jones
[url="http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/index.htm"]http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/index.htm[/url][/quote]

cool web site - there's a really interesting article on there as to why he believes the concept of the Buzz Feinten tuning system is flawed. MTD owners take note

[Josh]

[quote]hi Josh, not sure why you are tuning a step down to compensate? I would have thought that tuning a step up to increase tension, if anything, would compensate for having "stupidly" low action?[/quote]

It loosens the tension by a fair bit and to my ear, on every bass I've done it on, it also adds some growl to the tone.

[quote]I like low action, and I dig in, and like medium to light strings - and given the scenario you describe, would expect a little bit more that just minor string buzz - even if the bass had a perfect set up.[/quote]

I like a low action and I dig in a lot (Any person on here who has seen me play can confirm this and how low my actions really are) as well. And yes your right, I get more than a subtle buzz, it makes it sound like I'm popping the notes as opposed to a normal pluck. I've become very use to this set up, it is both an integral part of my tone and my playing in general.

[quote]Perhaps you have answered your own question by stating that it's stupidly low - maybe just raise it a little, it doesn't take much to make a considerable difference. How much time are you leaving the bass to settle, after adjusting the truss rod etc?[/quote]

No, it was too low, as in every single note was choking, it was unplayable. I have raised it considerably higher and brought it back down again to try and find a happy medium and I haven't. I like to be able to get that click when you dig across the fretboard, not just the lower part of the neck as it is with the Smith. The lower end plays perfectly, the 12 fret onwards on each string is where the problem lies. It's still too high that I'm over exerting far too much energy, I'll no doubt run the risk of doing myself a mischief just trying to put up with it.

I've left it for a good few hours each time, from following the Gary Willis guide of which I'm very familiar with, no joy whatsoever. I've picked it up today for the first time in 3 days, hoping it may have finally settled and I still can't enjoy it.

[quote]I don't blame you for being distrustful of some luthiers, but if you do find a reputable one, then paying for the bass to have a decent set up is not going to devalue it.[/quote]

I've been scanning classifieds and searching for the last few days and all that's shown up are the 2 which I want to avoid.

[quote]It's a shame you don't get on with it, it looks like a sweet bass to me. Just as well I didn't trade my MTD with you, it doesn't sound like you'd have been happy with it either![/quote]

That's a little dismissive, the MTD's I've had have never really needed much tampering with other than adjusting the saddles, I could only guess yours would've been the same.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Josh

[OldGit]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='564020' date='Aug 9 2009, 10:26 AM']I know what you mean and it is a different world now so consequently, we have different expectations. But I also think there's a real tendency to get too hooked into the idea of everything having to be 'perfect' before we can make music and in my experience (both as a musician and a manager) it was far too easy to blame the gear rather than look at whether the attitude and performance is right...[/quote]


Sure and to a certain extent "toughing it out" is part of a successful band's arsenal. You have to be able to cope with the hassles and problems and still do a good show. However that is an advanced skill.

I well remember gigs on sax with very poor monitoring where I just stuck in ear plugs and just got on with it looking forward to the end.

Every band should rehearse this stuff a bit. No monitors is a key one.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='564325' date='Aug 9 2009, 06:50 PM']C'mon - no one else find that funny?



Well nuts to the lot of you [/quote]


I did

[OldGit]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='566227' date='Aug 11 2009, 09:03 PM']cool web site - there's a really interesting article on there as to why he believes the concept of the Buzz Feinten tuning system is flawed. MTD owners take note [/quote]


Thanks, we worked very hard on it and it's working well for him. Many vistors reading his articles from all over the world.

He has a lot to give in terms of the science of fettling guitars and basses and really knows what he is doing. Certainly the best fettler I've ever had work on my basses.

[Gwilym]

[quote name='Josh' post='566268' date='Aug 11 2009, 09:36 PM']That's a little dismissive, the MTD's I've had have never really needed much tampering with other than adjusting the saddles, I could only guess yours would've been the same.[/quote]

hey Josh, sorry, didn't mean it to sound like that at all. Just my observation that you probably wouldn't have got your preferred set up on my MTD.
cheers
G

[Gwilym]

[quote name='OldGit' post='566282' date='Aug 11 2009, 09:48 PM']Thanks, we worked very hard on it and it's working well for him. Many vistors reading his articles from all over the world.

He has a lot to give in terms of the science of fettling guitars and basses and really knows what he is doing. Certainly the best fettler I've ever had work on my basses.[/quote]

ah, you had a hand in it too? Certainly would consider dropping off a bass with him for a set up next time I head down the M4.

[robocorpse]

Seriously, if this thread wasn't 5 pages long, I would have thought it was a late april fool. Theres no telling Josh, he needs to work out exactly what he needs from a bass, then STICK TO IT.
Josh: Buying all the gear in the world aint gonna improve your technique, or get you the ultimate bass, you have already played your ultimate bass or something close to it, and have set yourself impossibly high benchmarks which you are very unlikely to match by throwing money at new instruments, even if you break even on the deals. I totally agree with the earlier post about you getting yourself a £100 beater with a crap action and forcing yourself to play it every day. You will really appreciate your gear then, and not make comments like "[i]I think maybe all I need is just one high end Jazz and that should be it. Not necessarily boutique but still rather sought after[/i]". I nearly lost my cuppa when I read that. Despite what you keep saying, I can't help thinking that having "envy-basses" seems to be more important to you than a playable one. Am I wrong?

PS: Buy a good 4001 and have done with it

[Josh]

[quote name='robocorpse' post='566394' date='Aug 11 2009, 11:27 PM']Seriously, if this thread wasn't 5 pages long, I would have thought it was a late april fool. Theres no telling Josh, he needs to work out exactly what he needs from a bass, then STICK TO IT.
Josh: Buying all the gear in the world aint gonna improve your technique, or get you the ultimate bass, you have already played your ultimate bass or something close to it, and have set yourself impossibly high benchmarks which you are very unlikely to match by throwing money at new instruments, even if you break even on the deals. I totally agree with the earlier post about you getting yourself a £100 beater with a crap action and forcing yourself to play it every day. You will really appreciate your gear then, and not make comments like "[i]I think maybe all I need is just one high end Jazz and that should be it. Not necessarily boutique but still rather sought after[/i]". I nearly lost my cuppa when I read that. Despite what you keep saying, I can't help thinking that having "envy-basses" seems to be more important to you than a playable one. Am I wrong?

PS: Buy a good 4001 and have done with it [/quote]

Yes, you are wrong.

I'd have to be pretty naive to think buying all the boutique basses I come across will improve my technique to no end, admittedly jumping from mid range basses to boutique drove me to improve my technique and playing to justify having such a bass, and I can happily say that it has. I'm well aware that the "Ultimate Bass" is a myth, even if I did stumble across a bass that ticks all of my boxes, I would still manage to find a flaw somewhere. I'm just looking for a bass Im not fighting with to enjoy playing it. Yes I've come very close but obviously not close enough, so that's why Im still looking, I'm sorry if that's such a problem.

I also apologise if it's such a sin to want something different looking to everything else, it's not my inention to get a bass that will have the punters gawping, if I wanted that Id simply getyself a Status and flick on the LED's and that would be another notch on my bed post. I like boutique basses, sue me.

Also, Im very appreciative of the gear I have, I know some would kill for a Smith or any other of the boutique Ive had, Im very lucky and grateful, I saved the money from work to get my first boutique bass over a year ago and have gradually been moving through the brands quite steadily. Only the most spoilt of bassist would not appreciate the effort and beauty of what they take for granted.

Just because I can't get on with the Smith does not mean that I don't appreciate the skill and time put into making such a brilliant bass. I don't need a £100 piece of crap to remind me of that.

Me having a preference over a Jazz bass makes you laugh? You telling me to get a Rickenbacker makes me laugh just as much.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Josh

[Bossajazz]

Hi Josh,

Sorry to hear that you haven't found the right bass....your walnut MTD635 is great by the way..

Setup is a highly personal thing...but a few years ago I broke out of this low action obsession, decided to get my basses sounding good by raising the action quite dramatically and then figured how to play them. It's the best thing I ever did...I occasionally sound quite good these days! Here's my idol's view on the subject (John Patitucci from his website) who has his action set quite high on his basses which results (to my ears at least) in a lovely pure hi-fi sound...thought I'd share the benefit of his experience.


STRING HEIGHT:  "For both acoustic and electric bass, you need enough clearance between the string and fingerboard so you can pull a sound out of your bass.  If the string is too low and right on top of the fingerboard (or frets on the electric), your dynamic range between your softest and loudest sounds will be smaller.  For the acoustic bass, the top of the bass won't vibrate as much and you won't be generating as much sound.  You won't get as thick a sound and you may get noise when you dig in and have to play stronger.  For electric bass, again, I feel that the instrument must vibrate well, even though it is most often a solid piece of wood and there are pickups involved.  It is still an instrument that is initially acoustic.  So, you still need some room between the string and the fingerboard.  It seems to me that many players sacrifice sound on both acoustic and electric, opting for convenience and greater ease of playing.  You have to find the balance between ease of playing and getting a nice full sound with ample dynamic range.  I have experimented a lot over the years and have my action on both instruments at a moderate place. I seem to have my action on electric higher than many players and more like my hero - James Jamerson (who played both acoustic and electric).  This is not a value judgment, but a subjective preference."

Alan