Country of origin

[Blast]

Looking at my local music store a few weeks ago I noticed that some basses are made in
China and Indonesia, both countries which seem to have problems over human rights and ethic issues. Is this a problem?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Blast' post='567040' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:50 PM']....Looking at my local music store a few weeks ago I noticed that some basses are made in China and Indonesia, both countries which seem to have problems over human rights and ethic issues. Is this a problem?....[/quote]
It should be a problem, but with the state of the world these days you'll find it hard to buy anything from an ethically "good" country! In 1997 Robin Cook tried the idea of an ethically responsible foreign policy and scrapped the idea in a matter of weeks.

[Hamster]

Every country has problems with human rights and ethical issues - it just depends what side of the fence you're looking over. I'm not saying we shouldn't be bothered about the regimes in China, North Korea etc, but I'm also bothered about the regime in the UK, USA and France for example

[sdgrsr400]

Plus there's the issue of "exporting jobs" from first- to third-world countries. Globalisation = exploitation: discuss!

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='chris_b' post='567053' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:57 PM']It should be a problem, but with the state of the world these days you'll find it hard to buy anything from an ethically "good" country! In 1997 Robin Cook tried the idea of an ethically responsible foreign policy and scrapped the idea in a matter of weeks.[/quote]

A good point. I agree.

[stevie]

[quote name='chris_b' post='567053' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:57 PM']In 1997 Robin Cook tried the idea of an ethically responsible foreign policy and scrapped the idea in a matter of weeks.[/quote]
Not much point in having an ethical foreign policy while you are about to invade a number of foreign countries. But God bless Robin Cook, I say. He may have been a philanderer, but his resignation speech was magnificent, and surprisingly honest for a politician.

Edited August 12, 2009 by stevie

[Gwilym]

on the topic of ethics, I've always wondered about what % of new instruments are manufactured from renewable wood sources, and other recycled materials.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='sdgrsr400' post='567080' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:19 PM']Plus there's the issue of "exporting jobs" from first- to third-world countries. Globalisation = exploitation: discuss![/quote]

yes i agree, because these 3rd world countries should just produce the raw materials to be exported to the first world to be made into things we can then sell back.
Heaven forbid these countries actually start trying to generating wealth for themselves! I mean the Raj and china can grow some bl**dy good tea for us but ships, trains and high end electronical goods? No they are better made in old blighty.

So yes globalisation=exploitation; the old Empires they were a lot better, a lot less exploitive.....

[XB26354]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='567176' date='Aug 12 2009, 07:16 PM']on the topic of ethics, I've always wondered about what % of new instruments are manufactured from renewable wood sources, and other recycled materials.[/quote]

It's funny you should mention wood from renewable sources for instruments as furniture is far more responsible for deforestation. I remember reading something about this stating that 40% of all deforestation for furniture in the Amazon since 1950 was for Japan for screens and enamelled wardrobes etc. - goods which don't even need solid wood. It is true that instruments require the best cuts of wood and there is often a lot of timber wasted in finding that wood, but most of those offcuts get used, either sold on to other industries or used for fuel. Lumber yards have thousands of tons of wood and I'd guess that even Fender only takes about 5% of the stock from their sources. Then there is the land clearing for grazing beef cattle in the Amazon, the massive deforestation in Indonesia and other parts of South East Asia for palm oil, and don't forget logging for fuel. I'd love to see all guitars and basses to be made from already cut old wood or sustainable stock - but other industries account for the problem.

With regard to country of origin, it is likely that instrument factories have better conditions than clothing or cheap disposable goods factories as the ticket price is much higher, allowing more profit to be made, plus workers need to have more skills than just basic machinery knowledge, so are likely to be paid a bit more. Ethically speaking there is a lot of dodgy practices, partly because the factory owners want to get rich, partly because although China is a communist country the gap between rich and poor is even wider than in the West, so those with more money and status are pretty untouchable, and lastly because the government does fix wages in a lot of industries to keep them artificially low (I know people in the clothing industry in Hong Kong, and the things they get up to are unbelieveable). At the same time there is the demand from the West, but at prices that only these countries can manufacture goods for. If beginners were prepared to pay £800 minimum for a bass then every bass could be made in the US or Europe, but the truth is a lot want to pay sub-£500, and East and South-East Asia fills the majority of that market.

[LukeFRC]

lumber yards have thousands of tonnes because you need to let wood dry out before you can use it.
The problem is our lack of care for nature. I think it would be good for one of the major companies to have a sustainable wood policy. But who would? It's not going to be a selling point for US based brands and Warwick use far too many hardwoods. Who else big makes stuff in europe?

[henry norton]

+1 on XB's comment - If buyers don't want to be a part of this exploitation then they have to be willing to pay more than 'exploitation prices'. It's interesting because there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground, you can buy a cheaper far eastern instrument or a high end custom western instrument, the middle ground (ie. people who want an instrument built in the west) is made up of US Fenders, MusicMan, maybe some Warwick models. I can't think of any others off hand....

Oh yes, Rickenbacker!

Edited August 12, 2009 by henry norton

[XB26354]

Lumber yards have thousands of tons of trees because they cut them down! If there is a maker nearby that builds a relationship with them they might allocate some stock with the types of wood and grain patterns the builder is looking for but it is a drop in the ocean compared to total stock of wood. Again I read somewhere in a trade publication (have to look this up!) that instrument manufacture accounts for about 2% of total logging. Compare that with 54% (in South America) for slash and burn farming. This does not take into account more recent overuse of certain exotic hardwoods like wenge, bubinga and ovangkol as you rightly mention.

[sdgrsr400]

In the world of string instruments, there's recently been a scare that pernambuco, the beautiful red wood used in bows which mainly comes from South American rainforests, might be declared an endangered species and brought into the CITES regulations (like ivory). Major efforts have had to be made to demonstrate sustainability, and this does appear to have had some effect.

[LukeFRC]

maybe danelectro had it right in the 50's.... plywood guitars could come back.....

[LukeFRC]

actually tempted to go grab wood out of a skip and see what i can make.... anyone got a free neck you can give me for an experiment?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Blast' post='567040' date='Aug 12 2009, 05:50 PM']Looking at my local music store a few weeks ago I noticed that some basses are made in
China and Indonesia, both countries which seem to have problems over human rights and ethic issues. Is this a problem?[/quote]

Its not a problem, it's awesome, I can buy a bass that is totally playable for less than £100 because of it. Then I can sing a song about their plight, which if I understand celebrities and the media correctly, makes it all good. Maybe one day I will hold hands on stage with a token liberated Chinese router slave.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='567429' date='Aug 12 2009, 10:50 PM']Its not a problem, it's awesome, I can buy a bass that is totally playable for less than £100 because of it. Then I can sing a song about their plight, which if I understand celebrities and the media correctly, makes it all good. Maybe one day I will hold hands on stage with a token liberated Chinese router slave.[/quote]