Sound Engineers

[bumnote]

Why not start from basics
The original purpose ofthe pa was to provide amplification for the vocals. i reckon 50 % of the local bands I hear trying to mike up everything have the vooals at inaudible levels.
Start at least with the vocals and try and mix everything to them. A band thats not particularly loud thats properly balanced generally sounds better than a loud band thats not
I saw Whos Who a little while ago on Southsea Common and they were sh*t hot. The bass player sounded great on stage and through the pa was an inaudable mess
The f..... bass drum is not the loudest thing in the mix, can you mix that and the bass so that they occupy different frequencies please.

[gafbass02]

Also. I do not want to use that skanky behringer DI box!!!!!
Please listen to my sound first so you know what to make it sound like out front.
Let me run through my fx at soundcheck like you do the guitars.
I would like the audience to hear: A] my sound, and B] all my notes including the high ones and harmonics. Not just sodding rumble!!!!

Edited August 14, 2009 by gafbass02

[iamapirate]

Yes, I do need things going through my monitors even though I have £180 earpllugs in - these things don't automatically pick up everything on-stage and mix in my own in-ear mix when I'm not even connected to the main system!

And might I suggest that you also listen to me when I say I want more of something in the mix and not just stand there at the desk, say 'ok, sure you can have some of your own vocals in the monitor, but can't you just hear yourself anyway?' because I fecking can't hear myself over my own bass rig!

[Veils]

Can I just add that, "can I have some guitar through my monitors?" actually directly translates into English as, "can I have some guitar through my monitors?"

Very surprising fact, but true none the less.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Veils

[Dr.Dave]

We're all protective of our little fifedoms.

I understand the frustrations here 100% - I've had a few myself - a sound crew could have killed me once BUT how many of us would like to tell the sound crew they should spend more time on the drummers monitors or getting the guitar sound right? More likely we're just standing our own corner , I think.

If the overall sound's good - that's good enough for me to be prepared to compromise. The music as a whole is more important than my bass sound.

[cheddatom]

There are some nightmare stories here. I've never had such problems. The only time I ever fell out with a soundman was at the a battle of the bands where they demanded that I use the same crap amp as the rest of the bands in the interest of fairness. I understood the point, but we were a three peice competing against 4 peices, I play with a bi-amp rig and loads of pedals and they wouldn't even let me use the 2nd guitar amp with a hi-pass.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' post='568868' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:59 AM']If the overall sound's good - that's good enough for me to be prepared to compromise. The music as a whole is more important than my bass sound.[/quote]

I agree but when you only have 1x guitar, bass and drums I really do need more than just thump, especially during guitar solo/intros etc.

[odub]

[quote name='Toasted' post='568780' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:03 AM']I would never have accepted that mate. Stand up for yourself.[/quote]

Well it crossed my mind, but in reality the chap had all the power, he had the knobs and could have made sure the sound was terrible if I'd have had a pop - we're just starting out and we'd quite like to be invited back to places so untill we have people turning up to a venue to see us I'll back down. I don't really have a problem standing up for myself, quite the opposite tbh, but y'know pick yer battles.

[Rich]

Dear Mr. Sound Engineer,

Have a word with our own joegarcia. He'll show you how to get a really good bass sound.

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='568677' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:34 AM']Adding to Bassace's comments it's dead easy to confuse a soun engineer - just show up with traditional acoustic instruments (even with fitted expensive pickups). Most variations of guitar / bass / drums seem to cause blind panic.[/quote]
We had one bloke a few weeks back who had never worked with horns before. We have six of them...

[OldGit]

[quote name='Rich' post='568911' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:27 PM']We had one bloke a few weeks back who had never worked with horns before. We have six of them... [/quote]

Yeah thats another one I remember from Soul Destroyers days...

[ironside1966]

Let me start by saying there a good sound engineers and then there a bad ones, some have a good attitude and some don’t but the good ones generally are ok.

I have been a pro sound engineer so I can talk form experience.

I do not like the Di straight from the guitar, but a Di from the amp is a good compromise.
Mic’ing up a bass cab can be a pain in the ass and create more problems than it solves.
A sound engineer listens to the entire mix not just a single instrument and try’s to achieve a sound that works with the band , often musicians want a bid sound but that is not always what works best in the context of a band.

In many cases especially where there is more than one band there is often very little time to go changing amps.
The priority of the sound man is to get a good audience pleasing sound with the minimum of fuss in the time allowed.
I would have no problem with swapping amps if it is practical but not if it is more trouble than it is worth.
If time is limited be fair to everyone swapping you amp may mean someone has to without a sound check.

It is always taken with a pinch of salt when a musicians friend or family (more so ones that play an instruments) say they could be a bit louder.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='568898' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM']I agree but when you only have 1x guitar, bass and drums I really do need more than just thump, especially during guitar solo/intros etc.[/quote]

Same set up for us - I never really have a problem , I take a post eq DI (from my amp - I don't trust their DI boxes) and tell them to flat line it and leave it the f**k alone.

[Toasted]

[quote name='odub' post='568901' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:17 PM']Well it crossed my mind, but in reality the chap had all the power, he had the knobs and could have made sure the sound was terrible if I'd have had a pop - we're just starting out and we'd quite like to be invited back to places so untill we have people turning up to a venue to see us I'll back down. I don't really have a problem standing up for myself, quite the opposite tbh, but y'know pick yer battles.[/quote]

Agree on all points.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' post='568925' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:37 PM']Same set up for us - I never really have a problem , I take a post eq DI (from my amp - I don't trust their DI boxes) and tell them to flat line it and leave it the f**k alone.[/quote]

Agreed, this is my preferred option but the last bit they often struggle with.
Of course this is for shared gigs only; on our own gigs Pete is an absolute star behind the desk and is at least as important as us 4 on stage.

[BigRedX]

I think I have once the once come across a sound man who wanted to DI my bass rather than take the DI feeds from my rack.

I told him I was fine with that provided that he's then be able to add all the appropriate effects that I used at the right moment in each song, and if he gave me a moment I'd right them all down for him with bar counts.

All of a sudden my DI feeds were deemed acceptable.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='568952' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:01 PM']Agreed, this is my preferred option but the last bit they often struggle with.
Of course this is for shared gigs only; on our own gigs Pete is an absolute star behind the desk and is at least as important as us 4 on stage.[/quote]

Maybe the answer's to agree to the shared gigs only if Pete can mix , or at least assist in mixing , your sound.

[Shambo]

I used to work as a sound engineer... look at my sig.

[Dr.Dave]

I've never understood why some PA crews , usually hire ins , insist on using DI boxes - generally pre-EQ - when just about every modern bass amp or players rig has a perfectly good DI.

Homer and Russ will recall my woes at the Colne festival. The crew used a phantom powered DI box ,splitting the signal before it got to the generic , hired in Ampeg rig - and shot the whole 48v into my brand new Shuker , frying it's EQ , happily not frying me.

I simply don't allow it now - even with passive boxes. They either take a DI signal from my GK or they can stick a mic in front , option c being I'm off home.

That said - I still think my open letter to sound guys would include 'Thanks for your help - hopefully we'll have more time to chat next time about how we can , together , make for a better show.'

Before you judge a man - walk a mile in his shoes * - I suspect many PA crews have a nightmare with some bands , their unrealistic demands and cocky attitude. End of the day - the sound man often gets the blame for stuff he'd no control over.



* - then if you still hate the bastard , you're a mile away and you've got his shoes!

[Stewart]

PA operators usually want you to use their DI because they are (to them) a known quantity.
Many heads (not GK) it seems do not have a good DI output.
Some are unbalanced, some just noisy - levels are all over the place from unit to unit.

They just want a signal they can use at the desk for the entire show.

If you want more control , take your own DI - maybe a microphone too.
But you'll get a better reaction if you take BSS/Radial... DI boxes and Shure/Audix/AKG... mics.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Stewart' post='569023' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:57 PM']PA operators usually want you to use their DI because they are (to them) a known quantity.
Many heads (not GK) it seems do not have a good DI output.
Some are unbalanced, some just noisy - levels are all over the place from unit to unit.

They just want a signal they can use at the desk for the entire show.

If you want more control , take your own DI - maybe a microphone too.
But you'll get a better reaction if you take BSS/Radial... DI boxes and Shure/Audix/AKG... mics.[/quote]

Agreed , in general - but I have found that though many PA hire ins use good amps/speakers/mics etc they have 10 quid DI boxes that are certainly no better than your average amp DI.

[gafbass02]

I came within an inch of shooting 48v up the back of my lm2 last week. I stayed polite though.
Did many Years as an engineer myself too but never again lol!!

[bassace]

[quote name='Rich' post='568911' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:27 PM']We had one bloke a few weeks back who had never worked with horns before. We have six of them... [/quote]


Ooh, nice!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' post='568991' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:25 PM']That said - I still think my open letter to sound guys would include 'Thanks for your help - hopefully we'll have more time to chat next time about how we can , together , make for a better show.'[/quote]

+100

I did have that conversation with the great PA man that did our shows.
It started out with "how come the fold back on your rig sounds so much better than anyone else's?" his reply was that one of his fold back wedges cost more than most whole PA systems with the clarity and quality to match.
We then had a long chat about what we could do to make his life easier. This included the band understanding PA systems better and also what we needed to ask for in the monitors in terms of frequencies. It also included a brief explanation on on why audibility did not depend entirely on volume. So after that we'd ask for more clarity or upper mids or 2k on a particular instrument in the monitors rather than just "louder"

[quote]Before you judge a man - walk a mile in his shoes *

* - then if you still hate the bastard , you're a mile away and you've got his shoes![/quote]

Love that saying

[Adrenochrome]

Having grizzled about bad PA people, I'd now like to publically big-up our regular soundman Peter Malarkey, as well as Tony Bianco (Italian Tony), and Phil Munt of Showtec who've worked with us before at our own gigs and some of the festivals/rallies we've played.
I'd recommend these guys very highly indeed.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='569162' date='Aug 14 2009, 03:51 PM']Having grizzled about bad PA people, I'd now like to publically big-up our regular soundman Peter Malarkey, as well as Tony Bianco (Italian Tony), and Phil Munt of Showtec who've worked with us before at our own gigs and some of the festivals/rallies we've played.
I'd recommend these guys very highly indeed.[/quote]

Ha! We were stuck in a cattle market in Skipton t'other week with Limehouse Lizzy , a lighting crew and no PA.Someone with the Limehouse set up caused a mix up that left the event sans PA and scuppered the gig. At one point we got a tip to try calling a bloke called 'Italian Tony' - sadly he couldn't help because he was in Italy.
I thought it was so funny - ringing a number and asking to speak to 'Italian Tony' - sounds like a scene from Layer Cake or something.

Ever used/worked with Dave Nutbrown and/of Starsound? - highly recommended.