Sound Engineers

[Rich]

[quote name='OldGit' post='569139' date='Aug 14 2009, 03:28 PM']So after that we'd ask for more clarity or upper mids or 2k on a particular instrument in the monitors rather than just "louder"[/quote]
What, as in "Can I have more clarity/upper mids/2k on the baritone in the monitors please?"..?

[Veils]

We have a useful yet simultaneously unfortunate situation in that our drummer is an awesome FOH. Great in that he can point in house FOH's in the right direction and often make the process quicker and less painless, really frustrating in that we knew if he wasn't behind the kit, he'd make us sound awesome without fail

[acidbass]

[quote name='Veils' post='569178' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:06 PM']We have a useful yet simultaneously unfortunate situation in that our drummer is an awesome FOH. Great in that he can point in house FOH's in the right direction and often make the process quicker and less painless, really frustrating in that we knew if he wasn't behind the kit, he'd make us sound awesome without fail [/quote]

Lol, my drummer is EXACTLY the same as that actually, his dad owns one of the largest PA companies in Northern Ireland here too so it's basically in his blood. Sometimes I wonder how he'd react to his role in the band being changed

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Rich' post='569177' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:06 PM']What, as in "Can I have more clarity/upper mids/2k on the baritone in the monitors please?"..? [/quote]

"Is that Italian Tony? Can I have 2k on The Baritone in the 2:30 at Haydock Park?"

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' post='569171' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:00 PM']Ha! We were stuck in a cattle market in Skipton t'other week with Limehouse Lizzy , a lighting crew and no PA.Someone with the Limehouse set up caused a mix up that left the event sans PA and scuppered the gig. At one point we got a tip to try calling a bloke called 'Italian Tony' - sadly he couldn't help because he was in Italy.
I thought it was so funny - ringing a number and asking to speak to 'Italian Tony' - sounds like a scene from Layer Cake or something.

Ever used/worked with Dave Nutbrown and/of Starsound? - highly recommended.[/quote]

It'll be the same Tony. I believe he was visiting family back home a few weeks ago. ARGH and others know him as well.
No, not worked with those guys you mentioned. I should point out that many others have done a reasonable job and been fine to work with but the guys listed were outstanding.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='569186' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:17 PM']It'll be the same Tony. I believe he was visiting family back home a few weeks ago. ARGH and others know him as well.
No, not worked with those guys you mentioned. I should point out that many others have done a reasonable job and been fine to work with but the guys listed were outstanding.[/quote]

Well , he's in my mobile as a result of the Skipton debacle and great to have a recommendation.

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' post='569171' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:00 PM']Ha! We were stuck in a cattle market in Skipton t'other week with Limehouse Lizzy , a lighting crew and no PA.Someone with the Limehouse set up caused a mix up that left the event sans PA and scuppered the gig. At one point we got a tip to try calling a bloke called 'Italian Tony' - sadly he couldn't help because he was in Italy.
I thought it was so funny - ringing a number and asking to speak to 'Italian Tony' - sounds like a scene from Layer Cake or something.

Ever used/worked with Dave Nutbrown and/of Starsound? - highly recommended.[/quote]
I'd have gone to that gig, but it was the first day of my holiday in Cornwall!

Back on topic though, I think one of the most important things on any gig with any sound man is to remember to stay on the right side of him, because as soon as he decides he doesn't like you, he has all the power he needs to make your sound cr@p!...or just take you completely out of the mix!

Also I think it's good to do your best to make their lives easy, so if you use effects, have any specific requirements, your amps DI is hot and so forth, try to let them know in advance. Being able to work with a couple of different options is also good too if they insist on certain things.

Luckily I've avoided really awful sound engineers, but when I have come across dodgy ones, I've managed to work with a reasonable compromise, even if it's not exactly the sound I hear in my head!

[Finbar]

I really do prefer the sound of my amp mic'd, but I never demand it, and I'm always courteous about it and inform the guy in plenty of time. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Unfortunate if it doesn't, because most of my sound comes from my amp (I'm sceptical of a lot of people who say 'my sound' with a straight face for 'normal' bass tones, but my bass isn't almost fully driven without an amp to do it...) and my DI on my amp doesn't work properly!

If there is a reason why you can't have everything your way though (having an engineer who is incompetent and will probably make things WORSE by doing it how you ask is included in that), then you shouldn't be a dick about it though. Just get on with it and play the gig. Live sound is never perfect.

[peteb]

BTW - Italian Tony is actually rather a good bass player (used to play in my mate's band)......

[OldGit]

[quote name='Rich' post='569177' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:06 PM']What, as in "Can I have more clarity/upper mids/2k on the baritone in the monitors please?"..? [/quote]


Yeah, it sounded like "more baritone in the horn monitors please" to you but Paul knew exactly what I meant
Oddly enough I got a call from someone for a horn relector after they'd been playing a gig with Panik PA this week .. His ears must have been burning.

[joegarcia]

I am a live sound engineer and feel for many of you and understand many of your comments. There are loads and loads of frighteningly incompetant people working as sound engineers but of course there are many good ones too working everywhere from your little toilet circuit clubs upwards. The most important thing is to communicate with them. We're not mind readers and often the sound you want from your bass might not be what comes out naturally.This is also especially true with regards to monitors. There isn't a 'one size fits all' mix for bands and all musicians like to hear different things. Tell your engineer politely what you need and how it is supposed to sound. Also, don't do what one bass player from a big metal band did to me a while ago. He had a 6 string and was standing 2 feet away from a cranked SVT and 8x10 and repeated to tell me to turn him up in the 1x12 monitor in front of him. Monitor wedges don't tend to be all that bassy.

The amount of times someone has come up to me during a gig and said the vocals are too loud or the bass is muddy when the band has specifically asked fir that is amazing. Also remember good live sound is subjective! If you are working with an engineer for the first time try and politely give them an idea of what you are about and what you should sound like. Try not to tell them how to do their job but if you can work together, everyone should be happy. :-)

[Finbar]

There's one large and well established venue we've played a few times, and the soundguy isn't my cup of tea at all. He always goes pre-EQ DI signal straight from my pedals. Surely he knows that will sound awful? My look of 'I told you so' doesn't seem to sink in whenever he does it and winces at the sound of it though. But I digress, I once asked him if he could mic my cab, to which I was told "eeeerrr.... no. I don't really like working with microphones". I would have thought that was a prerequisite for a sound engineer?

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='569162' date='Aug 14 2009, 03:51 PM']Having grizzled about bad PA people, I'd now like to publically big-up our regular soundman Peter Malarkey, as well as Tony Bianco (Italian Tony), and Phil Munt of Showtec who've worked with us before at our own gigs and some of the festivals/rallies we've played.
I'd recommend these guys very highly indeed.[/quote]

I doubt you'll need them in the tiny World's End, Knaresboro next week - saw your name on a poster . I just warmed them up for you - have fun!!

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='joegarcia' post='569362' date='Aug 14 2009, 08:51 PM']I am a live sound engineer and feel for many of you and understand many of your comments. There are loads and loads of frighteningly incompetant people working as sound engineers but of course there are many good ones too[/quote]

Yeah. I worked as a roadie for a sound reinforcement company that had pretty good sound engineers, and local custom made line array systems as well as traditional systems. I've never heard a bad mix from the older guys, and the one time a younger guy had a bad foh sound I walked into between the PA cabs. And what do you know, it was the band, blasting with two 4x12s per guitarist...

BUT there are many guys doing sound that 1) don't have sufficient hearing left to properly do the gig 2) don't listen at the bass sound! They just assume it needs bass boosting. The last time this happened was at a Larry Carlton & Robben Ford gig, where Larry's son's sound was a ton of mud and a little mids (he was playing a Sad) and overall the volume was suitable for 2,000 people. There were about 200 there. I and the wife lasted 3 numbers and had to leave as the volume was over the top. And I needn't tell you it wasn't Larry Carlton blasting with a huge amp, but just did. hah.

Also, that dinky Behringer DI: inside it's a 1:1 copy of the DBX turtle box. It may not have the same quality components (hm both are now built in China iirc) so doesn't probably last as long, but that dinky DI works just fine for live sound.

[casapete]

[quote name='Stewart' post='569023' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:57 PM']PA operators usually want you to use their DI because they are (to them) a known quantity.
Many heads (not GK) it seems do not have a good DI output.
Some are unbalanced, some just noisy - levels are all over the place from unit to unit.

They just want a signal they can use at the desk for the entire show.

If you want more control , take your own DI - maybe a microphone too.
But you'll get a better reaction if you take BSS/Radial... DI boxes and Shure/Audix/AKG... mics.[/quote]


+1 to all the above. I always have a BSS DI box in my gig bag just in case.
Apparently one engineer told me that they prefer using a DI box rather than the amp DI because if the
amp fails then they still have a feed into the FOH main PA/monitors etc. Also is easier for them setting levels
if time is on the short side.

Was in a band a while ago who used Trick-O PA Hire from S. Humberside. Phil the engineer is a top bloke and
could get my Stingray sounding ace in about 90 seconds! (Whole band could soundcheck in about 10 mins to perfection!)
Guess thats experience for you.

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='casapete' post='569789' date='Aug 15 2009, 10:58 AM']Apparently one engineer told me that they prefer using a DI box rather than the amp DI because if the
amp fails then they still have a feed into the FOH main PA/monitors etc.[/quote]
That's one reason I always use my MXR M80, apart from having consistent tone to the PA regardless of the backline I use, I'll never have to worry about any amp problems affecting the FOH mix. Furthermore, it means I can tweak my backline for a clear onstage sound without affecting the FOH mix.

[yorks5stringer]

What's a Sound Engineer? We mix our own....

[BigRedX]

A good sound engineer should be able to recognise the most appropriate place to take the DI from by looking at the bassist's rig.

[V4lve]

[quote name='OldGit' post='568632' date='Aug 14 2009, 08:37 AM']And some of the audience have ears as well as feelings and would really like to hear something other than a dull thud in he chest from the Roscoe bass on stage[/quote]

I think you will find that thud is probably the kick. In my experience as a member of the audience engineers seem to favour kick drum over bass. I went to see a favourite band a few years back in London. The bass player was using a gorgeous looking 'burst Lakland Decade and playing his heart out. Unfortunately I couldn't hear anything he was playing even though I knew the songs. The whole bottom end was completely overwhelmed by the kick drum to the extent that it actually obscured the structure of the songs. Was a huge shame.

Off topic a bit but.... I have the huge pleasure of playing occasionally with a very talented and experienced big band trumpet player. He surprised me recently by telling me that he looked to the bass player to lead the song, not the drummer. I didn't know that. Changed my playing somewhat.

Edited August 15, 2009 by V4lve

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='569892' date='Aug 15 2009, 01:25 PM']A good sound engineer should be able to recognise the most appropriate place to take the DI from by looking at the bassist's rig.[/quote]

and a better one would make that suggestion to the player and ask for his comments !!!!

[Baxter]

I Use an Ashdown Amp with its own DI out - which is really useful and most sound guys plug it it in without me having to ask. As a result you get to pick your voicing and control on stage volume without upsetting the front of house mix too much.

But then again For The Laynes I usually ask the sound guy to make us sound like the Beatles, but we always end up sounding like the Clash.

[molan]

[quote name='V4lve' post='569911' date='Aug 15 2009, 01:50 PM']I think you will find that thud is probably the kick. In my experience as a member of the audience engineers seem to favour kick drum over bass.[/quote]

I've known a few sound engineers over the years - always used to be a little private game for some of them to see how great they could get the kick & snare sounding. Often really not caring much at all about the rest of the band

I'm spoilt these days because our resident sound man comes to most rehearsals to hear arrangements and really works the desk to get the kind of sound we want. He's more than happy to try and sort everything individually for everyone and is often playing with different mics for our sax player & singers to get them sounding just right. He's regarded as an integral member of the band and gets an equal share of any income & gets to vote on new song choices etc as well.

He works with another band as well and their bass player prefers a very different sound from me. To me it sounds like a dull thud with little nore definition & when I asked the sound man he said that that's the sound the guy wanted - often sounds like mud to me (and the sound man!) but if the bass player wants that sound then that's what he gets. . .

I good tip I learned years ago was to be he sound man's best friend from the moment you arrive at a venue. Ask him questions about his rig, show interest in what he's doing, offer to help if he needs assistance shifting stuff or setting up lights etc. and ALWAYS offer to buy him a drink. Works wonders

[redroque]

There seems to be, with a few notable exceptions, a whole lot of 'me me me' and not enough 'us'. Surely playing in a band is a team game and the important thing is how good the band sound rather than the bass. That there are good and bad sound engineers is taken as read, as should be bass players. The useful contributions all involve communication with the sound man, and they are the ones who get the results.
DI boxes enable control over output with no mic thus cutting the amount of spill, most decent amps have an onboard DI, the is switch-able pre/post eq. FOH wants pre, sneaky git changes it and messes with the mix. Experience says, use your own so they can't do that!
A player that turns up spouting how important they are (that goes for any band member) will upset any sound man. A bass player who spouts and then is unaware of how his rig is affecting room resonances is just showing himself as ignorant and can be treated as such. If, when you switch on and start playing you notice the room taking off, cut the relevant freq. A mid scooped 'sounds great in the bedroom' sound is great in the bedroom on your own. Bring it out to play and you have to compromise to make the band sound work, or sound sh*t! In the studio environment, if you solo any instrument while mixing, it won't sound as good as you fell it should but in context of the mix, it works. Why should this not be the same with a live mix? Incidentally, the preferred and most recorded bass is.... a P!
Sound guys know kick and bass are in the same area, but asking a drummer to adjust the eq on the kick is likely to get you a kicking So the bass has to be adjusted!
Adding a pedal board into the mix just adds to the fun as, unless well designed and built, will have a detrimental effect on output, in terms of level and dynamic. Too often, kicking in a chorus/flange/fuzz sounds great in isolation but the level does drop and when everyone else is there, the bass drops out. Fuzz is a pet hate of mine so I'll avoid it - well I'll only say overdrive the bass with some overdriven guitar is overdrive soup and no one wins and the song loses.
I'll finish with before anyone has a go at a sound eng, do it yourself and see what is involved. The idea is to get the band sound good as a whole so the audience, who are the paying customer, has a good experience. If you are the band, your supposed to be entertaining said punter cos without them, you'll be back in the bedroom. Probably best to work with people rather than aggravate them.
Rant over, time for a little nap

Edited August 15, 2009 by redroque

[ironside1966]

Well said redroque some good points.

People need to know the difference between someone who is incompetent and someone whose methods you don’t quit agree with.

I have to agree that a lot of sound men tend to be obsessed with the kick and snare, my priority is and always will be vocals.

[Pete Academy]

I probably shou;ld have made it clearer in my original post - my grievances aren't necessarily with the guy who does the sound. Our band has a soundman who comes to all our gigs and does a greatr job. It's the in-house engineers that set up all the equipment that I have a problem with. We recently played a fairly well-known and prestigious venue in Birmingham, and the engineer turned up about an hour late and proceeded to set up the mikes and stuff at a snail's pace. The result was constant feedback from the horn players' monitors, which left no alternative but to turn them off.