Sound Engineers

[ironside1966]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='570046' date='Aug 15 2009, 04:43 PM']I probably shou;ld have made it clearer in my original post - my grievances aren't necessarily with the guy who does the sound. Our band has a soundman who comes to all our gigs and does a greatr job. It's the in-house engineers that set up all the equipment that I have a problem with. We recently played a fairly well-known and prestigious venue in Birmingham, and the engineer turned up about an hour late and proceeded to set up the mikes and stuff at a snail's pace. The result was constant feedback from the horn players' monitors, which left no alternative but to turn them off.[/quote]

The fact of life is you get what you pay for, many to venues don’t want to pay a lot so they end up with students or inexperienced people often working for a few quid and drinks.
If you bring your own engineer they are reluctant to let them anywhere near the pa for fear of damage or misuse of the pa, you can’t blame them how do they know if you are any good, other just don’t want to pay someone to sit around so they insist on making them work.

In venues with their own engineer I found it’s the ones that insisted that you stay clear of the PA are the one that would benefit most from you not staying away.
If you have any doubts why not take your own desk/ engineer and just link in?

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='570096' date='Aug 15 2009, 05:58 PM']The fact of life is you get what you pay for, many to venues don’t want to pay a lot so they end up with students or inexperienced people often working for a few quid and drinks.
If you bring your own engineer they are reluctant to let them anywhere near the pa for fear of damage or misuse of the pa, you can’t blame them how do they know if you are any good, other just don’t want to pay someone to sit around so they insist on making them work.

In venues with their own engineer I found it’s the ones that insisted that you stay clear of the PA are the one that would benefit most from you not staying away.
If you have any doubts why not take your own desk/ engineer and just link in?[/quote]

Ok, but this venue was The Jamhouse in Birmingham, supposedly having Jools Holland's involvement To be honest, the whole experience was pretty disgusting. And we had to pester them for the cheque.

[V4lve]

Worst mistake I ever made was to tell the guy who regularly mixes us a tip I picked up when I used to do a little engineering. To my shame I used to take advantage of the placebo effect and pretend to fiddle with the foldback until the band was happy. Basically this guy he ignores requests to change levels. I guess it comes around.

[E sharp]

I came back from Butlins Skegness last week and I can report that the sound on EVERY live show was absolutely crap/sh*te/awful - pick whatever you want . Honestly , even the missus who's tone deaf said "is it suppose to sound like that?" . Err no . There were a couple of bands , the best being some reading guys backing some Britains Got Talent acts . The bass player in particular had a nice Parker Fly bass , although you'd have never known it from the sound . Only bass drum seemed to be loud but not clear , just droning and horrible . The vocals came through in some form , but it was truely dreadful . Even the X Factor acts , including Ruth Lorenzo sounded crap - the backing track mixes were just as bad . Now I've had some good and bad experiences with sound men over the years , but surely Butlins is not some poxy village festival , social club or large pub etc . It's supposed to be on the money , I'd have thought . I've played plenty of holiday camps over the years and always got a decent sound , and if we'd have sounded like that , then word would have spread . Who on earth sorts the sound out at these venues .

[lee4]

To all the good sound people(Red at The Half Moon in Putney,the guys at Sound in Leicester Square,the guys at The Bull and Gate),many thanks,I hope you enjoyed the pint.
To the others,especially the rather chemically refreshed ones who turned up 60 minutes after the alloted soundcheck time,may your next s**t be a pineapple!

[MacDaddy]

when I'm happy with the onstage sound and monitor mix, I go out front and stand with the sound dude while the band are playing - I'm wireless - so I can hear what we sound like. Some sound dudes don't like this, but I'm always polite about it.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='570326' date='Aug 15 2009, 11:51 PM']when I'm happy with the onstage sound and monitor mix, I go out front and stand with the sound dude while the band are playing - I'm wireless - so I can hear what we sound like. Some sound dudes don't like this, but I'm always polite about it.[/quote]

This is not because the engineer is been rude it is just that a sound check is mainly to set levels sort out the fold back and try to anticipate any problems, there is not much pint in doing any thing else as the sound changes when the room gets full, having someone flapping over a guitar or drum sound is distracting.

As for Bullins I believe a lot of the camps have got rid of their sound and light crew and the job is left to the red coats.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='570374' date='Aug 16 2009, 01:46 AM']This is not because the engineer is been rude it is just that a sound check is mainly to set levels sort out the fold back and try to anticipate any problems, there is not much pint in doing any thing else as the sound changes when the room gets full, having someone flapping over a guitar or drum sound is distracting.

As for Bullins I believe a lot of the camps have got rid of their sound and light crew and the job is left to the red coats.[/quote]

room gets full? Not at any of my gigs

BTW there is no flapping.

[EskimoBassist]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='568644' date='Aug 14 2009, 08:52 AM']+1.. for the Fender bass, even.

Also, Mr. Engineer...

Do you see that thing next to the bass player's mic on the stage plan? Yep, it's a monitor.

I know you think it's on there by accident, but it's not. Bass players like to hear what's going on, too.

So.. be a diamond and make sure one is provided. Preferably one that works, and is plugged in.

Thank you.[/quote]

I have only ever played one or two gigs where I ahve actually been able to hear myself. And that's out of a lot of gigs!

[lee4]

We play quietly on stage,so we can hear clearly.No-one is deafened by any amps,and the monitors do thier job!
This has made it easier for the sound guys to do thier job(that and the pint we always buy them!)

[ironside1966]

[quote name='EskimoBassist' post='570493' date='Aug 16 2009, 10:57 AM']I have only ever played one or two gigs where I ahve actually been able to hear myself. And that's out of a lot of gigs![/quote]

If you can’t hear yourself that is down to the you or band.

In most moderately sized gig all that need to go through the monitors is vox and sometimes keys, in most cases it is up to the band to get a balance so there are a couple of options
The band play too loud
Your gear is not up to the job
You are deaf
Or that it is down to how you EQ the amp IE no middle, that is one reason why Di boxes are a god send.

The reason why we don’t normally mic up bass cabs is because there is a high risk of bass rumble for want of a better word and offers little flexibility.
A kick drum mic is very colored so will not give a accurate sound.
A Sm57 don’t have a low enough bass extension.

The more you put through the monitors the less clarity the vocals have

Most pro engineers know that if you keep thing simple there is less to go wrong and the results are better.
If you have a regular sound guy who knows your set up ten by all means experiment but when you have a band that you have not heard before we like to keep things simple.

Having bad experiences with sound men is normal, but if the majority of experiences is bad maybe it’s time to look inwards
Last word when you work with a good band and you turn the sound down there is still a good balance between the instruments turn the pa on and the sound just gets louder. With others you just lose the vocals and the bass sounds like its coming from one place and the guitar sounds like its coming from another.

[redroque]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='570651' date='Aug 16 2009, 02:15 PM']If you can’t hear yourself that is down to the you or band.[/quote]
Listen and learn!

[quote name='ironside1966' post='570651' date='Aug 16 2009, 02:15 PM']In most moderately sized gig all that need to go through the monitors is vox and sometimes keys, in most cases it is up to the band to get a balance so there are a couple of options
The band play too loud
Your gear is not up to the job
You are deaf
Or that it is down to how you EQ the amp IE no middle*, that is one reason why Di boxes are a god send.[/quote]

*it's that flaming mid scoop that sounds soooo good in the bedroom. And nowhere else

[quote name='ironside1966' post='570651' date='Aug 16 2009, 02:15 PM']The more you put through the monitors the less clarity the vocals have

Having bad experiences with sound men is normal, but if the majority of experiences is bad maybe it’s time to look inwards[/quote]

it's all true. Esp the last sentence. It's a hard lesson to learn, the one where you realise you have been an arse, but learn it, move on and you will benefit.
Something else that can help your case, don't turn up without sufficient mains sockets to power your gear. If you present the stage crew one plug per person they will like you a whole lot more than if you need 6 for your amp and all your pedals (it really does happen). I do enjoy giving them one 4 way and suggest they learn to do without 2 pedals I guess those people would call me awkward but why should i make up for their lack of forethought?
Steady now, may be winding up again.

[Finbar]

I don't know, I guess I don't have the SIMPLEST rig in the world, but I do try and make it easy as possible. I use two amps - one of which I'm happy to use a DI from, and the other I'm happy to have mic'd (it runs all my distortions etc). But it isn't a bassy sound - the other amp has that covered. And we are a one guitar band. So I don't personally see the problem using the 57 that was being used for the every other band's second guitarist for it. I know its a bit of a muckabout mixing the two bass signals for FoH, but I do my best to help, and like MacDaddy, can go wireless and stand out front and put my two pennies in for the sound guy. I never do it in a condescending way or anything, and just try and help things go smoothly really. I know my tones, and I know what should work in the context of my band's overall sound! And I'm really of the opinion that it should be a collaborative effort, not a fight between the band and the soundguy. Not every band thinks this way, and not every soundguy does either.

I completely agree about not turning up with enough sockets though. I need 4, and I've found it a real pain in the past. Can't believe I didn't get a 4 way for the back of my rack sooner!

[ironside1966]

[quote name='Finbar' post='571037' date='Aug 16 2009, 08:50 PM']I don't know, I guess I don't have the SIMPLEST rig in the world, but I do try and make it easy as possible. I use two amps - one of which I'm happy to use a DI from, and the other I'm happy to have mic'd (it runs all my distortions etc). But it isn't a bassy sound - the other amp has that covered. And we are a one guitar band. So I don't personally see the problem using the 57 that was being used for the every other band's second guitarist for it. I know its a bit of a muckabout mixing the two bass signals for FoH, but I do my best to help, and like MacDaddy, can go wireless and stand out front and put my two pennies in for the sound guy. I never do it in a condescending way or anything, and just try and help things go smoothly really. I know my tones, and I know what should work in the context of my band's overall sound! And I'm really of the opinion that it should be a collaborative effort, not a fight between the band and the soundguy. Not every band thinks this way, and not every soundguy does either.

I completely agree about not turning up with enough sockets though. I need 4, and I've found it a real pain in the past. Can't believe I didn't get a 4 way for the back of my rack sooner![/quote]

I can see the sense in your rig, and it always useful to discuss with the engineer before hand or anything that like that’s out of the ordinary, but I can see no point what so ever in standing FOH in the sound check, the priority for you is that you are comfortable on stage as said earlier a sound check is to set levels.

What I don’t understand is when people bring in back braking rigs when all you need is enough volume to be able to hear yourself on what is in most cases is a moderate sized stage.
Get a good onstage sound and a good engineer will reproduce that

[Finbar]

I'm just interested in what it sounds like out front! It is a perspective you never really get on your own band normally, isn't it? And with my rig, it just makes sense for me, if one channel needs to be significantly louder or quieter than the engineer has made it - he isn't going to know exactly how I have designed it to sound without having heard it before, even if I explain it to the best of my abilities! Maybe I'm misguided in thinking that a second pair of ears that know what to expect from the band might help?

[redroque]

[quote name='Finbar' post='571037' date='Aug 16 2009, 08:50 PM']I use two amps - one of which I'm happy to use a DI from, and the other I'm happy to have mic'd (it runs all my distortions etc).[/quote]

Just a thought - how about a small desk to combine your sounds, mix relative levels yourself and present one output for foh. There's several on the market for £60 or less

[Tait]

dear mr sound engineer man,

i think you do a great job. old people just like moaning.

Luke

Edited August 16, 2009 by Tait

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Finbar' post='571186' date='Aug 16 2009, 11:15 PM']I'm just interested in what it sounds like out front! It is a perspective you never really get on your own band normally, isn't it? And with my rig, it just makes sense for me, if one channel needs to be significantly louder or quieter than the engineer has made it - he isn't going to know exactly how I have designed it to sound without having heard it before, even if I explain it to the best of my abilities! Maybe I'm misguided in thinking that a second pair of ears that know what to expect from the band might help?[/quote]
+1

[ironside1966]

I think it is important to understand how an engineer’s brain works.

When working with pro musicians they don’t like long sound checks, they expect you to get it right quickly and with a minimum of fuss, when pro come out to the desk it can be seen as a vote of no confidence in the engineer or a load of musicions telling you to turn up their instruments (it is not uncommon when working with a inexperienced band for them all to come up individually and say it sound good but I need turning up)
Many venues don’t like long sound checks, often you work with time against you so you are used to working quickly.
Once I have gone quickly through the individual instruments I get the band to play a song, if all is well I will turn the FOH off about half way through the song ask if everything is ok, if so job is done.

The time that the band are playing is a time of intense concentration, the last thing you need is someone saying are you going to turn me up no matter how polite they are.

At loud volumes your ears deteriorate very quickly so you make the most of them while you can.

Mixing by committee never works

Why do you need to explain what you want when we can hear what’s coming out of your amp? We don’t want to change your guitar sound we just what to make fit in with the mix.

When I am the musician on stage I just let the engineer get on with it I never mention that I am one unless I can be helpful, the good ones don’t care and the bad cock it up tiring to prove how good they are.
When you have been kicking about a long time you get a instinct for the good ones so you just leave them too it , the bad ones will cock it up anyway so what’s the point.

Here’s what you can do

if something is particle impotent to the band’s sound Eg like the bass in the stranglers on you what prominent vocal harmonies then by all means let the engineer know.

We are not a bad lot and in most cases quite friendly it is just when you do a job 4 or 5 times a week you know what you’re doing.

Edited August 17, 2009 by ironside1966

[Finbar]

I agree with everything you say - I don't mean to sound like all sound engineers are bad! Haha. There are some gigs I genuinely look forward to just because I know there will be someone excellent doing sound.

But it sounds like you have been round the block in this sound malarkey. Not all sound engineers do try to recreate the amp's sound. Many don't even listen to it particularly. This is from my experience as a musician, and I feel it is valid experience.


Also, that was an interesting point brought up with taking a little mini-mixer along. I don't know how practical it would be - I could set one up, but making things sound good into it isn't where my strong point would lie. That's why that step tends to be the job of the sound engineer I suppose?

[Archetype]

Hrmmmm... torn on the subject, bass player, working in a band, and also a sound engineer too! *hrmmmm*

A lot of good points though, and i can admit a lot of sound guys really don't know what's going on.
Worth considering is that alot of the systems these "engineers" run is done on a regular setup, in the gigs i play its bass amp is a monitor and the bass is DI'd first. this tends to be the most common method for my gigs. and as for these "unusual" instruments such as horns then its a difficult task to add these as they are not the simple guitars bass drums vocal mix they expect.

With that said, some engineers on the other hand have the knowledge and the creative spark to get this all done quickly and sounding good.

However a point a lot of people miss. Every musician i know always goes in to a venue with a "this is my sound" mentality. While this is fully understandable since many spend time, money, and effort to achieve this sound you forget that it has to "fit". Having worked with a lot of bands, mostly for recording granted, but when you hear everything together left to themselves the problems of dominance come out. The bassist can't hear himself so turns up then the guitars go up, then the singer turns up the PA. then adding the heat of the location in that effects the sound and suddenly its all wrong. The job of the engineer is to take "your sound" and make this fit. And sometimes your state of the art bass rig and effects chains can be adding too much noise to the signal thats when amplified with the PA suddenly pisses everyone off and also drowns out the kick drums. then the guitarist comes in with his bass knob up full that puts your bass out.

Its always worth considering "your sound" from their ears, since that Fender sound they can't get right could be more the quality of the equipment, the acoustics of the venue not allowing the sound for feedback purposes, or the rest of your band taking over the frequency range needed. Great example is guitarists who scoop out all the mid range of their sound.

in closing, I can understand all your points cause some engineers need to be taken out and beaten with the XLR cable in the reverb chamber. But also that sometimes "your sound" just cant work!