Rickenbacker 4001 copy

[monkeyalan]

Hello,

Sorry if this is a bit cheeky for a first post but after spending a while researching i've come up with nothing much and this seems to be a place full of knowledge.

My dad bought this rick copy way back in the 80's and i've since "borrowed" it ( about 10 years ago!) but neither of us knows anything about it , what make it is etc, apart from it's a through neck build with a 33 scale.

There are no seriel numbers anywhere.

any info would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

Al

[cheesymunger]

Looks like a Shaftesbury to me, does it have a through-neck?

I'm sure Bassassin will be here with all the details you need!!

[monkeyalan]

[quote name='cheesymunger' post='571729' date='Aug 17 2009, 04:04 PM']Looks like a Shaftesbury to me, does it have a through-neck?

I'm sure Bassassin will be here with all the details you need!![/quote]


yeah mate , its a through neck.

thanks for the quick response!

[Bassassin]

It's not a Shaftesbury, they had small enclosed tuners & I've only ever seen Fireglo coloured ones.

My first reaction is perhaps one of the late 70s Fujigen-built copies but I'd expect checked binding, which I don't think this has, and it would definitely have a serial number. There were quite a few non-specific Japanese brands - Fresher & Fernandes both did similarly spec'd examples - but it could also be a Brazilian-made Giannini.

I think I'm tending to lean towards Giannini at the moment - the truss rod adjuster might confirm this - Gianninis I've seen have a single rod with long brass nut, as opposed to the recessed allen keys used on most Japanese copies.

It's possible there might be some identifying marks behind the scratchplate on the pots/pickups, or even written inside the cavities.

Jon.

[bassplorer]

That could be a Greco or a Electra (Corsair) as they used to call their Ric.copies. Made by a very good builder brand in japan by the 70s called Matsumoku. It is an excelent copy bass and for most of the people that has had the chance to play a Ric. and some of these copies the diference in quality of sound and playability of these guitars is almost nothing. That is why Rickenbacker still very concern when they see them on E bay ...

[rockbass]

Hi,
I guess I'm the same as [b]'monkealan'[/b] and maybe a bit late on that thread:
I'm new in here and I might be cheeky too and I've been researching a lot and also my dad bought a 'Rick' in the late 70's which I now use but neither of us knew anything about it.
It looks evan the same in details as Al's, except mine has got a black switch and a white string sattle.
And very astonishing there's a printed one-letter/6-digits number at the back of the head, I always thought this was the RIC Ser-No. which isn't, but it seems like an IBANEZ-No.

This copy is very accurate made and has a thru body neck and JETglo color, the checkerd bindings are matching to Rick's.
But it has just one truss rod and it's head and even the cavity matches to a 77 IBANEZ Western Guitar I owne. This makes me believe that it's made by IBANEZ or GRECO.
I appriciate any clue on the manufacturer of this bass?

Cheers Gunnar

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='571864' date='Aug 17 2009, 06:11 PM']It's not a Shaftesbury, they had small enclosed tuners & I've only ever seen Fireglo coloured ones.

My first reaction is perhaps one of the late 70s Fujigen-built copies but I'd expect checked binding, which I don't think this has, and it would definitely have a serial number. There were quite a few non-specific Japanese brands - Fresher & Fernandes both did similarly spec'd examples - but it could also be a Brazilian-made Giannini.

I think I'm tending to lean towards Giannini at the moment - the truss rod adjuster might confirm this - Gianninis I've seen have a single rod with long brass nut, as opposed to the recessed allen keys used on most Japanese copies.

It's possible there might be some identifying marks behind the scratchplate on the pots/pickups, or even written inside the cavities.

Jon.[/quote]

trust this guy, he has a lot of knowledge on this.

Indeed, it would have some serial somewhere underneath something.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='rockbass' post='836738' date='May 13 2010, 11:37 PM']Hi,
I guess I'm the same as [b]'monkealan'[/b] and maybe a bit late on that thread:
I'm new in here and I might be cheeky too and I've been researching a lot and also my dad bought a 'Rick' in the late 70's which I now use but neither of us knew anything about it.
It looks evan the same in details as Al's, except mine has got a black switch and a white string sattle.
And very astonishing there's a printed one-letter/6-digits number at the back of the head, I always thought this was the RIC Ser-No. which isn't, but it seems like an IBANEZ-No.

This copy is very accurate made and has a thru body neck and JETglo color, the checkerd bindings are matching to Rick's.
But it has just one truss rod and it's head and even the cavity matches to a 77 IBANEZ Western Guitar I owne. This makes me believe that it's made by IBANEZ or GRECO.
I appriciate any clue on the manufacturer of this bass?

Cheers Gunnar[/quote]
Hi Gunnar - if you post some pics of the bass it should be possible to ID it accurately. If it's an Ibanez, that will be easy to spot - there are some variations but all Ibanez 4001 copies have black & white chequered body binding, rather than the plain white most copies have. The binding does appear on some other manufacturers' instruments but I'd need to see some pics to be 100% sure which was which.

A point worth mentioning - it won't have actually been [i]made[/i] by either Ibanez or Greco - these are both just brand names owned by Japanese trading companies, who contract various factories to build their instruments. During the 70s Ibanez & Greco both used Fujigen Gakki to manufacture their instruments, so often they are identical apart from the names. Greco did also use Matsumoku, and again the 4001 copies from that factory are very easy to spot.

Fujigen basses will have a serial like the one you describe, and I am inclined to think that's what yours is, but some pics will confirm it.

Jon.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='bassplorer' post='616086' date='Oct 3 2009, 09:53 PM']That could be a Greco or a Electra (Corsair) as they used to call their Ric.copies. Made by a very good builder brand in japan by the 70s called Matsumoku. It is an excelent copy bass and for most of the people that has had the chance to play a Ric. and some of these copies the diference in quality of sound and playability of these guitars is almost nothing. That is why Rickenbacker still very concern when they see them on E bay ...[/quote]
I don't think it's either, for a number of reasons. First of all, I assume this bass is in the UK - Greco is a home-market brand in Japan, as was Electra in the US - neither were officially imported to the UK so that alone makes it quite unlikely. Secondly, Greco's 70s 4001 copies were initally made by Matsumoku & Fujigen simultaneously, and subsequently by Fujigen alone - this bass is not either. Again, Electra's Corsair model was sourced at different times from both of these factories, and also from Kasuga Gakki - & I'm 99% sure Kasuga did not make this bass.

The reason Rickenbacker are concerned by copies is nothing to do with their quality - it's simply because the existence of copies threatens their ownership of their trademark designs. Under US law if they do not pursue & prevent every visible infringement of their trademarks, they lose the right to exclusively use it, which would mean anybody & everybody had the legal right to make Rick copies. That's why there are so many Precision, Jazz, Les Paul, Strat, Telecaster etc copies - Fender & Gibson didn't act to protect their designs.

Jon.

[rockbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='836779' date='May 14 2010, 01:13 AM']Fujigen basses will have a serial like the one you describe, and I am inclined to think that's what yours is, but some pics will confirm it.

Jon.[/quote]

Hi Jon,
thanks for responding that promptly and clearly.
I will post some detailed images but not today because I've got to run a gig first, this time with my brown 76 US made Precision which is not a bad one.

Edited May 14, 2010 by rockbass

[Musky]

[quote name='rockbass' post='836963' date='May 14 2010, 10:42 AM']Hi Jon,
thanks for responding that promptly and clearly.
I will post some detailed images but not today because I've got to run a gig first, this time with my brown 76 US made Precision which is not a bad one.[/quote]

Brown? Is that a refin?

[rockbass]

[quote name='Musky' post='837998' date='May 15 2010, 12:07 PM']Brown? Is that a refin?[/quote]

No, it's the original color: Walnut.
Found an interesting thread in a different forum from a Fender dealer to this: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=602518"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=602518[/url]
Gunnar

Edited May 15, 2010 by rockbass

[rockbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='836779' date='May 14 2010, 03:13 AM']Hi Gunnar - if you post some pics of the bass it should be possible to ID it accurately. If it's an Ibanez, that will be easy to spot - there are some variations but all Ibanez 4001 copies have black & white chequered body binding, rather than the plain white most copies have. The binding does appear on some other manufacturers' instruments but I'd need to see some pics to be 100% sure which was which..........

Fujigen basses will have a serial like the one you describe, and I am inclined to think that's what yours is, but some pics will confirm it.

Jon.[/quote]

Here come the images:














Hope this helps to define the manufacturer.

Gunnar

Edited March 5, 2011 by rockbass

[noelk27]

[quote name='rockbass' post='838256' date='May 15 2010, 04:03 PM']Here come the images:



Hope this helps to define the manufacturer.[/quote]

When I first looked at it I thought Fernandes, but that serial number looks oh so Matsumoku - seven-digit serial making it an 80s, and the first digit making it an '81. Too late to be an Aria though.

[Bassassin]

Sorry Noel - it's a Fujigen bass, the very small/fine chequers on the binding are the main giveaway here. The serial's Fujigen too - read the first digit as a letter: I, the 9th letter of the alphabet, representing the 9th month. Second 2 digits are the year and the remainder is sequential production run for the month. Meaning this was the 6773rd instrument built at Fujigen Gakki in September 1977.

Ithangyew!!!

Anyway, I'd be 99% certain it was an Ibanez - in Europe/the UK (not sure whereabouts you are, Gunnar) far & away the most common examples of Fujigen 4001 copies were branded as Ibanez. I think this is a late example of an Ibanez 2388B/DX, these had their specs updated to resemble mid 70s Rickenbackers, and used more authentic pickups/surround. Earlier 2388Bs had full-width sparkly inlays copied from pre '73 Ricks (as was the chequer binding) and used Gibson-style chrome pickups. I assume when Fujigen started building 4001 copies (as far as I can ascertain around 1971/72), replica pickups weren't in production, so they just used whatever was available.

Anyway excellent pics Gunnar, and the bass looks to be in great condition for its age. Is the truss rod cover a real Rickenbacker item, or do you know if it's a replica? If it's real (which it might well be if it's been on the bass since the 70s), the back-screened Plexi covers are very sought-after by Rickenbacker collectors & fans.

Jon.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='838545' date='May 15 2010, 11:00 PM']The serial's Fujigen too - read the first digit as a letter: I, the 9th letter of the alphabet, representing the 9th month. Second 2 digits are the year and the remainder is sequential production run for the month. Meaning this was the 6773rd instrument built at Fujigen Gakki in September 1977.[/quote]

Oh yea, the first character is an I, not a 1 - a Matsumoku 1 has a tiny angle at the top. Did Fujigen always imprint its serial numbers in gold type?

[rockbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='838545' date='May 16 2010, 01:00 AM']Sorry Noel - it's a Fujigen bass, the very small/fine chequers on the binding are the main giveaway here. The serial's Fujigen too - read the first digit as a letter: I, the 9th letter of the alphabet, representing the 9th month. Second 2 digits are the year and the remainder is sequential production run for the month. Meaning this was the 6773rd instrument built at Fujigen Gakki in September 1977.

Ithangyew!!!

Anyway, I'd be 99% certain it was an Ibanez - in Europe/the UK (not sure whereabouts you are, Gunnar) far & away the most common examples of Fujigen 4001 copies were branded as Ibanez. I think this is a late example of an Ibanez 2388B/DX, these had their specs updated to resemble mid 70s Rickenbackers, and used more authentic pickups/surround. Earlier 2388Bs had full-width sparkly inlays copied from pre '73 Ricks (as was the chequer binding) and used Gibson-style chrome pickups. I assume when Fujigen started building 4001 copies (as far as I can ascertain around 1971/72), replica pickups weren't in production, so they just used whatever was available.

Anyway excellent pics Gunnar, and the bass looks to be in great condition for its age. Is the truss rod cover a real Rickenbacker item, or do you know if it's a replica? If it's real (which it might well be if it's been on the bass since the 70s), the back-screened Plexi covers are very sought-after by Rickenbacker collectors & fans.

Jon.[/quote]


Thanks Jon,
I read the Serial-No. like you, it's definitely the capitol letter [i][b]'I'[/b][/i]. And the follwed 77... states the year as you said, because it's in my posession since 79 – bought private.

About my whereabout: I'm german and this bass was bought in Germany which matches to your guess: [i]'Anyway, I'd be 99% certain it was an Ibanez - in Europe/the UK.....'[/i].

And as you mentioned the pics are really great, typical RIC-Sound. But the bridge Pup frame needs to get a new chrome finish, my sweat might be a bit to agressive. And the checkered binding is accurately made it is even interrupted under the tail bridge which is a specification of an original RIC.

The back-screened truss rod plexi cover was on it (I didn't change anything on that bass) and it's made the way Rickenbacker used it these days, as far as I know. So I'm wondering if one could get a plate seperately with 'Made in USA'?

So, almost everything's clear.

Thanks again, Gunnar

[Musky]

[quote name='rockbass' post='838714' date='May 16 2010, 11:12 AM']Thanks Jon,
I read the Serial-No. like you, it's definitely the capitol letter [i][b]'I'[/b][/i]. And the follwed 77... states the year as you said, because it's in my posession since 79 – bought private.

About my whereabout: I'm german and this bass was bought in Germany which matches to your guess: [i]'Anyway, I'd be 99% certain it was an Ibanez - in Europe/the UK.....'[/i].

And as you mentioned the pics are really great, typical RIC-Sound. But the bridge Pup frame needs to get a new chrome finish, my sweat might be a bit to agressive. And the checkered binding is accurately made it is even interrupted under the tail bridge which is a specification of an original RIC.

The back-screened truss rod plexi cover was on it (I didn't change anything on that bass) and it's made the way Rickenbacker used it these days, as far as I know. So I'm wondering if one could get a plate seperately with 'Made in USA'?

So, almost everything's clear.

Thanks again, Gunnar[/quote]

The checkered binding is actually slightly different to a real Rick. On the genuine article the black dots butt right up to the painted wings, where as on your one the dots are surrounded by white.

I don't think you'll have much luck in finding a rick style truss rod cover with 'made in USA' on it. There was a guy in Italy who was selling Rick type TRC's with raised lettering, but they didn't have the model number or Made in USA on them. And of course Rickenbacker won't provide you with one unless you exchange your old one.

Your best bet would be to make something up yourself, or get someone else to do it for you.

[Soloshchenko]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='838545' date='May 16 2010, 12:00 AM']Sorry Noel - it's a Fujigen bass, the very small/fine chequers on the binding are the main giveaway here. The serial's Fujigen too - read the first digit as a letter: I, the 9th letter of the alphabet, representing the 9th month. Second 2 digits are the year and the remainder is sequential production run for the month. Meaning this was the 6773rd instrument built at Fujigen Gakki in September 1977.

Ithangyew!!!

Anyway, I'd be 99% certain it was an Ibanez - in Europe/the UK (not sure whereabouts you are, Gunnar) far & away the most common examples of Fujigen 4001 copies were branded as Ibanez. I think this is a late example of an Ibanez 2388B/DX, these had their specs updated to resemble mid 70s Rickenbackers, and used more authentic pickups/surround. Earlier 2388Bs had full-width sparkly inlays copied from pre '73 Ricks (as was the chequer binding) and used Gibson-style chrome pickups. I assume when Fujigen started building 4001 copies (as far as I can ascertain around 1971/72), replica pickups weren't in production, so they just used whatever was available.

Anyway excellent pics Gunnar, and the bass looks to be in great condition for its age. Is the truss rod cover a real Rickenbacker item, or do you know if it's a replica? If it's real (which it might well be if it's been on the bass since the 70s), the back-screened Plexi covers are very sought-after by Rickenbacker collectors & fans.

Jon.[/quote]


I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love it if you wrote a book on the history of Japcrap/Rickenfakers mate.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Soloshchenko' post='838953' date='May 16 2010, 04:19 PM']I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love it if you wrote a book on the history of Japcrap/Rickenfakers mate.[/quote]
I'd love to do it - but there's only 5 people in the whole world who would buy it!

______________________________________________________


Gunnar - you know it's not a Rickenbacker, & it's not made in the USA, so putting a fake TRC on it seems a bit strange to me. The 70s Rick copies are fantastic & collectable instruments in their own right & I feel they should be celebrated as such. I have 3 Rick copies, none of which had their original covers when I got them, so I've made my own from 4 mm clear acrylic:

[attachment=49905:trc_x3.jpg]

The designs & logos are printed on thin card inserts behind the clear covers, apart from the plain black one which is simply sprayed black on the reverse.

Ibanez Rick copy truss covers were made from 2-ply white/black scratchplate material, with the Ibanez logo engraved on the front so the black lower layer showed through:

[attachment=49912:f377_3.JPG]

I'm quite interested in trying to engrave scratchplate plastic in this way, so I might be able to make an accurate reproduction Ibanez trc. If you're interested, let me know.

Jon.

[rockbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='838995' date='May 16 2010, 05:53 PM']Gunnar - you know it's not a Rickenbacker, & it's not made in the USA, so putting a fake TRC on it seems a bit strange to me ..........

I'm quite interested in trying to engrave scratchplate plastic in this way, so I might be able to make an accurate reproduction Ibanez trc. If you're interested, let me know.

Jon.[/quote]

Hi Jon,
strange to me either, that's why I've been entering this forum and asking. I don't wanna switch a copy into an original. But as I mentioned in my first post it was bought as a RIC. And now after years puting it apart for a cleanup I was checkin' the Ser-No. and I was wondering....

With my question before: [i][b]'So I'm wondering if one could get a plate seperately with 'Made in USA'?'[/b][/i] I didn't mean to buy one by myself, there's already one.

Oppositely I'm interested in having an adequate TRC too, how can we get together on that?

Gunnar

[Bassassin]

[quote name='rockbass' post='839086' date='May 16 2010, 06:35 PM']Hi Jon,
strange to me either, that's why I've been entering this forum and asking. I don't wanna switch a copy into an original. But as I mentioned in my first post it was bought as a RIC. And now after years puting it apart for a cleanup I was checkin' the Ser-No. and I was wondering....

With my question before: [i][b]'So I'm wondering if one could get a plate seperately with 'Made in USA'?'[/b][/i] I didn't mean to buy one by myself, there's already one.

Oppositely I'm interested in having an adequate TRC too, how can we get together on that?

Gunnar[/quote]

I understand what you mean now!

OK - the plate on the bass is probably a real Rickenbacker one - back in the 70s it was possible to buy spare ones from Rickenbacker. They don't sell them any more - mainly because so many ended up on copies, like yours did. Now, the only way a Rick owner can get a replacement is by exchanging one they already have.

I think you should ask the guys on the [url="http://www.rickresource.com/forum/index.php"]RickResource[/url] forum to take a look at your cover and check whether or not it's real. There is a "Rickenbacker Appraisals" sub-forum there that is for things like this, and those guys know everything there is to be known about Rickenbackers. If it is genuine, then they'll probably also be able to tell you how much it might be worth - the 1960s / 1970s back-printed Plexiglass ones are very rare & sought after, as far as I know.

I could easily make you a TRC the same as the ones on my basses, & I could print an Ibanez inlay to go underneath it. As far as an engraved replica is concerned, I haven't tried doing this yet so I'm not completely sure I'll be able to do it! I will experiment with engraving a logo on some scrap 2-ply plastic, and if it works I'll let you know!

Jon.

[FlatEric]

[quote name='Soloshchenko' post='838953' date='May 16 2010, 04:19 PM']I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love it if you wrote a book on the history of Japcrap/Rickenfakers mate.[/quote]

[quote]I'd love to do it - but there's only 5 people in the whole world who would buy it! [/quote]


Well get cracking on it and put me on the list.

Seriously Jon, you ought to put finger to keyboard and share the knowlege.

I bet there would be a lot of interest from all of us who share a liking for Japan's finest.

I know a couple of tame printers!!!

Gooo Ooooon, you know you want to!!

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='839125' date='May 16 2010, 07:13 PM']I could easily make you a TRC the same as the ones on my basses, & I could print an Ibanez inlay to go underneath it. As far as an engraved replica is concerned, I haven't tried doing this yet so I'm not completely sure I'll be able to do it! I will experiment with engraving a logo on some scrap 2-ply plastic, and if it works I'll let you know!

Jon.[/quote]
Jon, could you make me a new rockinbetter TRC for my Tokai? The original logo suffered from being a rather crappy sticker and fell off in an over-energetic string cleaning session. PM me about it, ta.

[rockbass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='839125' date='May 16 2010, 08:13 PM']...
I could easily make you a TRC the same as the ones on my basses, & I could print an Ibanez inlay to go underneath it. As far as an engraved replica is concerned, I haven't tried doing this yet so I'm not completely sure I'll be able to do it! I will experiment with engraving a logo on some scrap 2-ply plastic, and if it works I'll let you know!

Jon.[/quote]


Hi Jon,
OK, set up your tools and speed up the gears, there's a bunch of lads standing in line.

As far as I'm concerned do it either way it may be an experience.
Do you need a template drawing of my current plate for the right shape and the screw holes? Or do you think the plates are matching each other?
If so, I could drill the holes by myself.
If you don't wanna announce your price for it right here send me a private message.

Gunnar