Bands using Backing Tracks (MP3)

[lowdown]

I think it should be called[b] Augmenting tracks[/b].
Because thats what you are doing.
I have done countless shows and tours with large bands that have been Augmented with some
kind of extra percussion or stg and brass parts or even 2nd guitar parts, or whatever with the use of a click.
And it aint anything new.
The Who used a reel to reel in the early days of Wont Get Fooled Again, live [the Arp synth part]
Would not call them unmusical,whatever your taste in music is.

Go for it.


Garry

Edited August 18, 2009 by lowdown

[xilddx]

[quote name='lowdown' post='573424' date='Aug 18 2009, 08:29 PM']I think it should be called[b] Augmenting tracks[/b].
Because thats what you are doing.
I have done countless shows and tours with large bands that have been Augmented with some
kind of extra percussion or stg and brass parts or even 2nd guitar parts, or whatever with the use of a click.
And it aint anything new.
The Who used a reel to reel in the early days of Wont Get Fooled Again, live [the Arp synth part]
Would not call them unmusical,whatever your taste in music is.

Go for it.


Garry[/quote]
Well said.

The point is that music and creativity is happening and people are being pleased by it. Music, recorded or performed, should not be reduced to religious dogma.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='573410' date='Aug 18 2009, 08:15 PM']Thanks everyone, I know peoples opinions on this thorny subject differs drastically!! I know recording your own tracks is probably the best way to do it, but what about downloading from here: [url="http://www.karaoke-version.com/custombackingtrack/"]http://www.karaoke-version.com/custombackingtrack/[/url] .... what do you guys think of that idea? you can edit the tracks as you like and they are MP3 quality ... then set up all the click track, headphone amp mumbo jumbo etc and a decent MP3 player... its certainly not the same as having real musicians but when we are trying to scrape a living from low paying pub gigs and if this actually worked... I know one thing, if it sounds really bad and we feel like its too much of a bluff job then it will be canned tout suite! What else would we need to make this work ie cables, leads etc..many thanks.. Dave
:blush:[/quote]

Interesting site...

Some observations:

Not every track I looked at had a click track on it. Trying to add one later will be a nightmare. Also I couldn't see anywhere how the click track is mixed in with the rest of the instruments. What you want is just click panned into one channel and everything else panned to the other. Otherwise the audience will be able to hear the click and you really don't want that.

There doesn't appear to be any way to change the tempo or key of the custom backing tracks.

Tracks that fade on the record have been given "proper" endings. However you're stuck with someone else's version of how the song should finish.

Not entirely convinced by all the sounds - synths in particular.

There aren't that many tracks there in the first place.

[xilddx]

The drummer I play with in the two bands that use backing tracks never uses a click. He gets a good band mix with the backing tracks a little louder in his wedge and plays to that. BUT there is usually a percussion track in there or some other rhythmic reference. Other than that he has extraordinarily good time sense.

[Tradfusion]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='573558' date='Aug 18 2009, 10:14 PM']Interesting site...

Some observations:

Not every track I looked at had a click track on it. Trying to add one later will be a nightmare. Also I couldn't see anywhere how the click track is mixed in with the rest of the instruments. What you want is just click panned into one channel and everything else panned to the other. Otherwise the audience will be able to hear the click and you really don't want that.

There doesn't appear to be any way to change the tempo or key of the custom backing tracks.

Tracks that fade on the record have been given "proper" endings. However you're stuck with someone else's version of how the song should finish.

Not entirely convinced by all the sounds - synths in particular.

There aren't that many tracks there in the first place.[/quote]

All fair points... this is why I put up this thread, and the type of info I need to be aware of before we attempt this... so probably not gonna work without serious grief then? D

[BigRedX]

[quote name='silddx' post='573569' date='Aug 18 2009, 10:27 PM']The drummer I play with in the two bands that use backing tracks never uses a click. He gets a good band mix with the backing tracks a little louder in his wedge and plays to that. BUT there is usually a percussion track in there or some other rhythmic reference. Other than that he has extraordinarily good time sense.[/quote]

Sounds like an exceptional drummer then.

One of the drummers I played with in SugarBox was that good. Unfortunately he also assumed that everyone else in the band had that good a sense of timing and that I would be able to get through 16 bars of drumless intro with just a 4 beat count in and still be in time with rhythm when it came back in.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='573583' date='Aug 18 2009, 10:37 PM']Sounds like an exceptional drummer then.[/quote]

Apparently, long before I played with him, he was laying drum tracks to nothing but a click in the studio when the click disappeared for about half a minute or more. When it came back in he was perfectly in time with it. I have this on very good authority. Pretty awesome timing I reckon.

In fact, I think he deserves a big up for that, Hamid Mantu from Transglobal Underground. This will end up in the BC Cliché thread now

[Jase]

We've decided to go with mp3's and a pc, it's working pretty well in rehearsals. At the moment it's all trial and error, none of us know that much about it.The main reason we took this route was unreliable musicians.The recorded tracks will be there when you are, total control

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='lowdown' post='573424' date='Aug 18 2009, 08:29 PM']The Who used a reel to reel in the early days of Wont Get Fooled Again, live [the Arp synth part][/quote]
...and on at least one of the many occasions that it all went hideously wrong, Townshend hauled Bob Pridden out from behind his Revox and chinned him in front of the audience.

I respect both sides of this argument about "real musicians" and "creative augmentation" - it's situation-specific - but for the OP, it's got to be a question of what's expedient, no more. Fair play to him.

That said, I predict fun times ahead in the rehearsal room. A-One, A-Two, A-Three-and-a-half!

Best of luck

Edited August 19, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Golchen]

I'm another who doesn't approve of backing tracks for live performances. If you are going to do that then why bother showing up at all? Just send a couple of people to jump around with instruments not plugged in and bung a CD on!

I've always thought that part of the joy of a live band is the 'no frills' energy that you can get from a complex track pared down to the essentials.

[BigRedX]

And equally I've been to see bands who's live performance was a pale shadow of what they'd done on the album and extremely disappointing simply because for some reason they didn't use backing tracks.

[Weird War]

The notion of 'augmenting' our live act with some backing tracks came up in regularly in my previous band, often prompting a deep theological debate akin to the C of E debating the desirability of female clergy. Backing tracks in small doses - where their use solves an otherwise insuperable problem - is ok in my view but should be kept to a minimum. They do complicate gigging somewhat, too, and unless prepared well, can sound duff.

This topic always raises a healthy debate: as Father Jack said, "That would be an ecumenical matter..."

Edited August 19, 2009 by Weird War

[Bilbo]

My personal value base is to say if you haven't got a saxophone, you can't produce a saxophone part.

The art of music making, for me, is about the creative use of what you have and the use of a certain instrumental line-up to create something special (my most astonishing experience as an audience member was watching a trio of saxophones, polytonal tambourine and hurdy-gurdy (Brackell Jazz Festival late 1990s)). I also find the 'make it like the record' mentality anathema. If you want the record, play the damn record. Live, everything sounds different, even when the original artists are performing. That's where the magic is. I also don't like solos played live that are the same as the record. I demand more of the people I watch than simple reproductions of recorded material.

Besides, if the venues are too cheap to pay for an extra musician, why should the musicians that are there invest in kit to make the missing voice available for free?

I can see it now: Nigel Kennedy playing the Royal Albert Hall with a backing tape of the London Philharmonic. Marvellous.

[Moos3h]

Wading in with my size 6's

As a musician? I despise the use of backing tracks, but understand the need in some scenarios. I would suggest that it shouldn't be beyond a good band to find a way around not having certain sounds etc in their interpretation of a song but this won't always be the case. We've played some recent stuff and dumped it because we couldn't get THAT sound and the song itself wasn't strong enough without.

As an audience member? If I can tell it's a backing track, I HATE it and feel very cheated. However, what the ear can't tell the iPod gets away with - if it's subtle then you'd get away with it. I appreciate that as a musician, I am a far more critical audience member than most (sour bunch, aren't we).

Cheers,
James

[lowdown]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='573838' date='Aug 19 2009, 09:53 AM']I can see it now: Nigel Kennedy playing the Royal Albert Hall with a backing tape of the London Philharmonic. Marvellous.[/quote]

Perhaps the LPO might prefere that.

Garry

[lowdown]

Any one fancy playing solo Bass to the Philharmonia Orchestra?
Here you go...
Sequencer and their own Orchestral Samples, for your use or remix.
Every one's at it...!
It aint gonna go away...

Nigel Kennedy might just be eyeing this up.

[url="http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thesoundexchange/make_music/sequencer/"]http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thesoundexch...usic/sequencer/[/url]


Garry

Edited August 19, 2009 by lowdown

[BigRedX]

There is a time and a place for non-live backing, and also situations where it's not appropriate. All depends on the music and the feel you are looking for.

My covers band would never consider using extra backing. If it can't be done with 2 guitars, bass drums and vocals we either re-arrange the song so it can or we don't do it. We do quite a few songs which on the record have important keyboard parts and have found ways to get around having to have them and that's without using anything fancy like guitar synths.

On the other hand for my originals band we use loopers, samples, sequencers, drum machines as well as guitar, bass drums violin and vocals. We'll use whatever it takes to get the correct sound and feel. There are times when the precision, complexity and sounds of the machines are necessary and simply can't be replicated by a live musician. The guitarist, drummer and myself have years of experience working with the technology like this and know how it best integrate it into the band.

Working with backing tracks or sequencers is not like just getting another musician in the band, nor should it be seen as a replacement for a live musician. It's something else. You can't simply add automated backing and expect it work. You need to understand the mechanics of it and how as a musician to interact with it. It requires a fair investment in time and equipment and even then there's no guarantee that as a band you'll ever be comfortable with it.

[Tradfusion]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='573838' date='Aug 19 2009, 09:53 AM']My personal value base is to say if you haven't got a saxophone, you can't produce a saxophone part.

The art of music making, for me, is about the creative use of what you have and the use of a certain instrumental line-up to create something special (my most astonishing experience as an audience member was watching a trio of saxophones, polytonal tambourine and hurdy-gurdy (Brackell Jazz Festival late 1990s)). I also find the 'make it like the record' mentality anathema. If you want the record, play the damn record. Live, everything sounds different, even when the original artists are performing. That's where the magic is. I also don't like solos played live that are the same as the record. I demand more of the people I watch than simple reproductions of recorded material.

Besides, if the venues are too cheap to pay for an extra musician, why should the musicians that are there invest in kit to make the missing voice available for free?

I can see it now: Nigel Kennedy playing the Royal Albert Hall with a backing tape of the London Philharmonic. Marvellous.[/quote]

I think you are still missing my point Bilbo, we only have one fairly average guitar player with drums, bass and a vocalist who plays nothing...thats it... and we are a decent sounding band at that but we could be better if we had a fuller sound, and we cannot afford to pay another musician.... thats all I am saying, I am looking for advice and not a lecture on musical ethics...

[xilddx]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574012' date='Aug 19 2009, 12:40 PM']I think you are still missing my point Bilbo, we only have one fairly average guitar player with drums, bass and a vocalist who plays nothing...thats it... and we are a decent sounding band at that but we could be better if we had a fuller sound, and we cannot afford to pay another musician.... thats all I am saying, I am looking for advice and not a lecture on musical ethics...[/quote]
I think you need to understand that Bilbo is happy in the days before electricity. He's not looking to advance music and performance. I don't think he realises sometimes that the reason a lot of modern orchestral music never gets heard is because the rehearsal and performance costs, along with the generally poor attitude of many rank and file orchestral musicians, makes it prohibitive. If there's a way of programming a computer to simulate an orchestra, why wouldn't you use it. At least then you can allow people to hear your music.

[lowdown]

[quote name='silddx' post='574043' date='Aug 19 2009, 12:54 PM']If there's a way of programming a computer to simulate an orchestra, why wouldn't you use it. At least then you can allow people to hear your music.[/quote]

That is so true.
All the major composers for Hollywood films [ and many others]
Use Orchestral 'mock ups' [not muck ups]to give to the director,
so he has a great idea on how the score is progressing and will sound.
Then its easy and cost effective to make changes as they go. [ and there is usually many]
Rather then a copyist running around the scoring stage on the day with a pen and tipex,
or his laptop printing off more parts when the Orchestra could be playing.
Music and technology go hand in hand, always has.
And more to the point always will.


Garry

Edited August 19, 2009 by lowdown

[ironside1966]

I have worked with many great bands and musicians who have used tracks at some point for one reason or another.
Most of it is out of ignorance ,how many of you track hatters have seen it done well? If the band are good enough you soon forget about the tracks, most musicians I know play to please audiences not other musicians, all though I agree that there are a time and a place for tracks

For tracks to work bands need to be tight and disciplined, the drummer need to work to a click something that not many of them can do without sound like a robot if they can do it at all.
You can allow room for improvising but it has to be thought out in the first place, just like a band without any tracks

Having worked with many band width and without tracks would I say they are a crutch for bad musicians, the bands with tracks tend to have the best musicians in them all though I agree that there are a time and a place for tracks


The majority of backing tracks hatters have one thing in common come Monday morning they are off to work.

Edited August 19, 2009 by ironside1966

[Jase]

For us it's about trying to re-create what has been recorded which in this case is keyboard parts, some vocals. Both of these tracks are recorded by the guitar player in the band who also wrote them. In addition to this we have also added a singer (human being) and a 2nd guitar player (human being)

We also feel that we'd be short changing anyone who had listened to our recording, come to see it live and thought....."my, my, there's a fair bit missing here"
I too would also prefer to have a full band of humans but to be quite honest most of the musicians we've met, tend to be unreliable. Seems simple to me, move on use the technology

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574012' date='Aug 19 2009, 12:40 PM']I am looking for advice and not a lecture on musical ethics...[/quote]

Spoilsport

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='574043' date='Aug 19 2009, 12:54 PM']I think you need to understand that Bilbo is happy in the days before electricity. He's not looking to advance music and performance. I don't think he realises sometimes that the reason a lot of modern orchestral music never gets heard is because the rehearsal and performance costs, along with the generally poor attitude of many rank and file orchestral musicians, makes it prohibitive. If there's a way of programming a computer to simulate an orchestra, why wouldn't you use it. At least then you can allow people to hear your music.[/quote]

Mmmm - the Wal would sound marvellous without 'lectric....

You are missing a very important point about the arts in general. The money is there to pay for all of this stuff but, because of the cultures that exist around the music and film industries and, more importantly, the distribution of money within those industries, the 'won't pay' mysteriously gets turned into 'can't pay'. Why is it that Hollywood 'can't afford' orchestras but can afford to pay celebrity actors EIGHT FIGURE sums. Pay them a seven figure sum and get the orchestras back in. In the world we live in, it is no longer enough to make a profit, you have to MAXIMISE it.

The electronic orchestras and electronic horn sections that are used as alternatives to the real thing are compartively sterile. Bands can get away with it because audiences are ill-informed, have low expectations and are easily impressed. Take someone to see a big band or an orchestra for the first time and watch their faces.

I love to see music progress; I just can't see how cutting as many musicians as possible out of the equation does that!

Not all motion is forward.

[xilddx]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='574157' date='Aug 19 2009, 01:51 PM']The electronic orchestras and electronic horn sections that are used as alternatives to the real thing are compartively sterile. Bands can get away with it because audiences are ill-informed, have low expectations and are easily impressed. Take someone to see a big band or an orchestra for the first time and watch their faces.[/quote]

Mmm, thanks for that, Bilbo.

My electric basses are then sterile compared to an acoustic. My audience is ill-informed, have low expectations and are easily impressed. Great. I'll pack it in now then and carry on with my Health & Safety career where my audience is much the same.