Bands using Backing Tracks (MP3)

[JTUK]

hmmm... in a local setting, then backing tracks aren't a good idea, IMV. People will think you can't play and that sort of thing..

If you use keys but can't justify it on some gigs then don't do that set at that gig..

I can totally see the point of tracks in Pit settings etc etc as people don't generally take note of who is in there anyway... but 4 guys on a stage in a pub doesn't quite work IMO..

Probably more pertinent, can the drummer play to a click..?

Edited August 19, 2009 by JTUK

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' post='574206' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:21 PM']... but 4 guys on a stage in a pub doesn't quite work IMO..[/quote]

Erm, yes it does. Two guys and a girl in my case, doing originals. And it works beautifully.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='574181' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:09 PM']Mmm, thanks for that, Bilbo.

My electric basses are then sterile compared to an acoustic. My audience is ill-informed, have low expectations and are easily impressed. Great. I'll pack it in now then and carry on with my Health & Safety career where my audience is much the same.[/quote]

You 'n' me boaf!

Seriously, though, I can't see that there is anything wrong with electronic instruments, electronic effects or even samples as a tool. My problem is with the idea of pressing a button at the start of a live song and letting machines doing stuff 'automatically' while the humans play along. Its partial karaoke. Its the tail wagging the dog, If you can't do it without a machine, do something else better.

[skankdelvar]

The more that we drift off into the murky waters of artistic integrity and value judgments, the more I'm bloody-mindedly inclined to support the OP in his endeavour.

The key to all of this is what's expedient in the OP's current situation. That said, I'm confused by the notion that it's [i]the venue[/i] that won't pay for the keys player. Do they operate some sort of 'per musician' fee? Just curious.

The other thought that occurs is that if it's a question of the band taking a financial hit by adding another member - well, maybe it's worth looking to the future. Having real keys (oh, OK, Bilbo, an electronic substitute for an entire string and brass section!) would mean an overall expansion of the band sound and repertoire - not just the songs that need a particular part. This could lead to a corresponding improvement in the total package, thus leading to more gigs, more audience satisfaction.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, keys make a band sound more 'expensive' and keys players, IME, tend to align themselves with the rhythm section.

In any event, do what you feel is best for your band, enjoy it and don't fret about the 'Integrity' issue. In the context of cheerfully knocking out some covers in a club, 'Integrity' = Tripe.

Edited August 19, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Bilbo]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='574233' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:35 PM']'Integrity' = Tripe.[/quote]

DOES NOT COMPUTE. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='574220' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:29 PM']Seriously, though, I can't see that there is anything wrong with electronic instruments, electronic effects or even samples as a tool. My problem is with the idea of pressing a button at the start of a live song and letting machines doing stuff 'automatically' while the humans play along. Its partial karaoke. Its the tail wagging the dog, If you can't do it without a machine, do something else better.[/quote]

Bilbo has the guts to say things I wouldn't dare say in this thead because I don't want to be rude to people who do feel they need a laptop onstage with them.

I always change the channel or go to the bar when I see a band on with a laptop playing 35 instruments already programmed and sequenced (and much better than the 2 live plodders onstage). I just don't see the point. I always think email me the file and I'll load it into my sequencer at home.

As for the live band, spend some time trying to arrange the songs for your line-up. Until last year I'd never played covers in bands but when I wanted to get my band battle-hardened doing 3 x 1 hour set residencies, we augmented our material with about 15 covers. I have so much fun arranging songs for the band and the most satisfying part is when audiences can't tell which songs are ours and which are covers.

EDIT: One thing I want to add is that strings samples these days are pretty good whereas brass samples will always be total sh*t. But then again, I have more of an idea of how I want brass to sound than strings.

Edited August 19, 2009 by The Funk

[skankdelvar]

Using electronic / pre-recorded augmentation:

* If you're an 'Artist' - say, Kraftwerk or Moby and performing your own original stuff, it's OK. Challenging, even. M'wah, M'wah, air-kiss.

* If you're doing covers, you're a hack, reeking of cheap cider and Superkings.

Weird, innit. We're edging dangerously close to the 'Covers / Tribute' debate.

Edited August 19, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Earbrass]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='574252' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:48 PM']Using electronic / pre-recorded augmentation:

* If you're an 'Artist' - say, Kraftwerk or Moby and performing your own original stuff, it's OK. Challenging, even.[/quote]

No, it's still tacky faked-up nonsense, it's just that fewer people will have the guts to say so out loud. (Kraftwerk, Moby - challenging???!!! You people need to listen to more Henry Cow. )

[The Funk]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='574252' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:48 PM']Using electronic / pre-recorded augmentation:

* If you're an 'Artist' - say, Kraftwerk or Moby and performing your own original stuff, it's OK. Challenging, even. M'wah, M'wah, air-kiss.

* If you're doing covers, you're a plodder, reeking of cheap cider and Superkings.

Weird, innit. We're edging dangerously close to the 'Covers / Tribute' debate. [/quote]

My attitude is almost the reverse. I'd have more sympathy for a covers / function band using backing tracks than, say, Destiny's Child. That's a f***ing disgrace.

I don't have any time for 'artists' playing to a backing track (even hip-hop artists - get a live band or a DJ) or getting the keyboard player to do little more than press the space bar on his Macbook Pro at the beginning of each song. It's different if their music relies on triggering samples for sound effects rather than instrumentation (such as Pink Floyd), or on live looping, or live programming - which I've never witnessed but would like to see happen.

[Jase]

Backing tracks are pretty much the same as loopers really, only the backing tracks were recorded a while ago and the looper guy records it, then uses it straight away.
My point is why wait around for unreliable so called musicians when you can do it between the already existing members? If we were to keep hunting a keyboard player and some singers we'd never get out gigging,

[lowdown]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='574260' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:56 PM']No, it's still tacky faked-up nonsense, it's just that fewer people will have the guts to say so out loud.[/quote]

And why would that be then?
They have a PC/MAC screen to hide behind.



Garry

[Tradfusion]

So the majority of you guys think backing tracks are complete sh**e! I have never really gone to hear a band using them to be honest so I suppose that would be a good idea... our little 4 piece is'nt bad as we are, so maybe it is a re-thinking of the set list and that, our vocalist is female and she keeps picking songs that suit her voice and that she fancies herself, alot of them are fairly contemporary ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna etc so thats where we sound pretty twee with just the 1 guitar, bass and drums. Stuff like Blondie, Pretenders, Fleetwood mac etc we can horse out and they sound fine... we were trying to include some of the recent hits because people keep asking for them. As for the extra musician, we are on a set fee for the pub gigs and if we bring someone else on board we have another cut in the already (IMO) paltry fee, we have other gigs like weddings etc where we can afford a keyboard player and its great, makes all the difference... Oh well, back to the drawing board..

[Jase]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574294' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM']we are on a set fee for the pub gigs and if we bring someone else on board we have another cut in the already (IMO) paltry fee, we have other gigs like weddings etc where we can afford a keyboard player and its great, makes all the difference... Oh well, back to the drawing board.. [/quote]

Cut them out altogether, make extra money on a pub and even more on a wedding

[crez5150]

[quote name='Jase' post='574304' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:26 PM']Cut them out altogether, make extra money on a pub and even more on a wedding [/quote]

Or use them properly to build a fantastic sound and so people will pay you more anyway..... ;o)

[stingrayfan]

In reply to the OP's question (about 3000 posts ago), I've seen cover bands use this quite effectively using a trigger pad fired off by the drummer. Worked well on stuff like Dakota by Stereophonics where there's a very specific effect sample at the start of the song which the band then plays along to. You could programme different stuff on different pad and get the drummer to fire it off on the fly.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='The Funk' post='574273' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:07 PM']My attitude is almost the reverse. I'd have more sympathy for a covers / function band using backing tracks than, say, Destiny's Child. That's a f***ing disgrace.

I don't have any time for 'artists' playing to a backing track (even hip-hop artists - get a live band or a DJ) or getting the keyboard player to do little more than press the space bar on his Macbook Pro at the beginning of each song. It's different if their music relies on triggering samples for sound effects rather than instrumentation (such as Pink Floyd), or on live looping, or live programming - which I've never witnessed but would like to see happen.[/quote]

With you on all that, big boy.

[Bilbo]

I guess one of the problems those who need these 'aids and adaptations' is that they are often playing cover versions of songs that were never performed live in the first place but 'assembled' in a lab. So they probably are impossible to reproduce live without some digital assistance.

I think its called learned helplessness.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574294' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM']So the majority of you guys think backing tracks are complete sh**e! I have never really gone to hear a band using them to be honest so I suppose that would be a good idea... our little 4 piece is'nt bad as we are, so maybe it is a re-thinking of the set list and that, our vocalist is female and she keeps picking songs that suit her voice and that she fancies herself, alot of them are fairly contemporary ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna etc so thats where we sound pretty twee with just the 1 guitar, bass and drums. Stuff like Blondie, Pretenders, Fleetwood mac etc we can horse out and they sound fine... we were trying to include some of the recent hits because people keep asking for them. As for the extra musician, we are on a set fee for the pub gigs and if we bring someone else on board we have another cut in the already (IMO) paltry fee, we have other gigs like weddings etc where we can afford a keyboard player and its great, makes all the difference... Oh well, back to the drawing board.. [/quote]

Here is the choice
Play the songs that you do well and the vocalist can doing well which sounds like the would go down well with the audience.
Get more, better gigs plus more money
or listen to the luddites.
stick with songs that your singer doesn't want to sing and that audience has heard a thousand times before and stay where you are.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574294' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM']our vocalist is female and she keeps picking songs that suit her voice and that she fancies herself, alot of them are fairly contemporary ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna etc so thats where we sound pretty twee with just the 1 guitar, bass and drums.[/quote]

But if you [b]can[/b] find a way to make them work for the 4 of you, you'll have made them your own, and that will be a lot more satisfying for you and your audience than just trying to sound as much as possible like an original track that, as Bilbo rightly says, was assembled in a 'lab'. (For an extreme example, listen to Ms Dynamite as played by the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain - it's all about having the musical vision and imagination to perceive what really is the heart of a song and how to bring that out using just the musical resources you have at your disposal - THAT's what makes a good musician)

PS Could your guitarist use fx / guitar-synth technology etc to thicken up your sound a bit?

Edited August 19, 2009 by Earbrass

[Jase]

[quote name='crez5150' post='574307' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:27 PM']Or use them properly to build a fantastic sound and so people will pay you more anyway..... ;o)[/quote]

Yes, ideal in an original situation (but not always possible) but a covers situation, I'd take less musicians more money any day.

[Tradfusion]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='574326' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:42 PM']But if you [b]can[/b] find a way to make them work for the 4 of you, you'll have made them your own, and that will be a lot more satisfying for you and your audience than just trying to sound as much as possible like an original track that, as Bilbo rightly says, was assembled in a 'lab'. (For an extreme example, listen to Ms Dynamite as played by the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain - it's all about having the musical vision and imagination to perceive what really is the heart of a song and how to bring that out using just the musical resources you have at your disposal - THAT's what makes a good musician)

PS Could your guitarist use fx / guitar-synth technology etc to thicken up your sound a bit?[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestion... yes he's using a Roland guitar synth of some kind on some of the tunes to replicate keyboard and brass sounds etc, but then the guitar is missing and it still sounds wrong, to my ears anyway... I play in other 4 piece bands where both vocalists play guitars as well, and thats fine, and we go down pretty well for what we are, but this girl we are working with now is just a singer, and a damn good one, and we are trying to keep it to an even 4-way split money wise and keep her happy by playing the material she likes and performs well...hence my original query about backing tracks....I never thought this thread would still be going 70 posts later, still no harm in stirring the nest now and again!!! ^_^

[The Funk]

You can get lead vocal-less backing tracks for most current chart hits. This female singer of yours could decide to just use backing tracks and take all the money herself.

[skankdelvar]

Ah-ha! Here's a solution. Bass pedals, like the old Moog jobbies. Play the bass lines with your feet, deliver guitar on a double-neck, while the gtrst does his synth stuff!

[The Funk]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='574376' date='Aug 19 2009, 04:17 PM']Ah-ha! Here's a solution. Bass pedals, like the old Moog jobbies. Play the bass lines with your feet, deliver guitar on a double-neck, while the gtrst does his synth stuff![/quote]

You forgot about the xylophone next to the drum kit and the theremin for the singer!

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574361' date='Aug 19 2009, 04:05 PM']...hence my original query about backing tracks....I never thought this thread would still be going 70 posts later, still no harm in stirring the nest now and again!!![/quote]

I've probably missed one somewhere, but I can't recall a previous thread on this topic, hence the sustained interest.

I was at the London Mela on Sunday. Loads of very fine musicians and bands, but too many of them (IMHO) were just far too ready to hand over to a recording.

At one point the "band" on stage comprised two drummers (one western, one tabla), a flautist, and an Apple Mac. The two drummers were playing occasional paradiddles, the flautist stood there looking embarassed, and the crowd listened to "here's one we prepared earlier".

My point is that the SAME three musicians had just finished playing something really cool and tasteful. They were good at what they did (far better than me on bass, for example) so why stand on stage listening to a CD?

Given the chance to get on that stage with a bass in my hands, I'd want to be playing it.

If that gives a troll the chance to call me a luddite, well then, TRIP TRAP TRIP TRAP.