Bands using Backing Tracks (MP3)

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='The Funk' post='574379' date='Aug 19 2009, 04:18 PM']You forgot about the xylophone next to the drum kit and the theremin for the singer![/quote]

Kazoo-synth. Majestic.

[BigRedX]

Having seen your last couple of posts about the specifics of your band and its situation, I'd have to say that using automated backing probably isn't an option for you. If maximising your income from the gigs your doing is a consideration then getting involved with backing tracks certainly isn't the way to go. I've spent many thousands of pounds on equipment to make and reproduce either sequenced or recorded backing for the various bands I've been in over the years. If it was just about the money having an extra player in the band and splitting the gig income one more way would have been far most cost effective.

Also working effectively with sequencers or recorded backing requires at least one person in the band to fully understand the technology involved, and to be in charge of it for the production and playback and at gigs.

The other point that's been made is a question of interpretation of the songs you are doing. As has been said it's all about getting to the heart of the song and focusing on the important parts (after the vocal). Guitar, bass drums and vocals should be plenty with some intelligent arrangements. Maybe if you're not doing it already the musicians should be focusing on practicing harmony vocals rather than fiddling around with mp3 players etc.

[ironside1966]

I don't think that people understand what playing with tracks is
If you have a keyboard play he may play some string parts, brass stabbs or Piano Tracks are jut the same but are pre recorded they dont take over the sound any more then a real keyboard player would.

Edited August 19, 2009 by ironside1966

[Tradfusion]

[quote name='The Funk' post='574375' date='Aug 19 2009, 04:16 PM']You can get lead vocal-less backing tracks for most current chart hits. This female singer of yours could decide to just use backing tracks and take all the money herself.[/quote]

Yeah thats quite possible

[jmstone]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574294' date='Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM']So the majority of you guys think backing tracks are complete sh**e! I have never really gone to hear a band using them to be honest so I suppose that would be a good idea... our little 4 piece is'nt bad as we are, so maybe it is a re-thinking of the set list and that, our vocalist is female and she keeps picking songs that suit her voice and that she fancies herself, alot of them are fairly contemporary ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna etc so thats where we sound pretty twee with just the 1 guitar, bass and drums.[/quote]

I don't know.. if I was going to do any of those kinds of songs, I would have to play them differently from the recording just to retain my sanity. We did a version of "I kissed a girl" for an encore in our (originals) band with just bass/drum/rhythm guitar.. Went down pretty well, and sounded significantly different from the original (with a kind of over the top tribal drums kind of sound). So, in my opinion, you are probably better spending your time working out interesting new takes on these **suppresses any expletives** contemporary songs than trying to add in more sounds.. I would much rather hear a band playing weird versions of current songs than trying to sound exactly like them (but then I'm probably not much like most of your target audience..)

Maybe you should try it out anyway and then see what you prefer tho. Maybe even play a gig with and without and see which works best.

[Norbert]

There’s a big difference between a band like Nightwish using backing tracks to supplement their amazing live sound and a crappy two chord pub band using backing tracks to make themselves sound pro……….this only leads to the un-employment of musicians……….and has become to cancer of the music industry………..

Having said that, backing tracks can be a god send……….I had the misfortune of seeing Lou Reed live a few years back and would have given my last kidney for a backing track half an hour into his set………..Lou sang and pounded away on his out of tune guitar for 2 god damn hours with no other musicians insight………this was the most painful musically experience of my life and will never be forgotten……….I get that we all want to keep it REAL…..but that was to damn REAL.

So, Question……………How do the pro bands like Nightwish set up their backing tracks? What equipment do they use?

[xilddx]

We use a hardcore minidisc, stereo direct into the desk. It has percussion, some backing vocal, pads, mbira, noises, whatever ..

[BigRedX]

I've used everything from cassette tapes (in a fairly "pro" cassette deck) to a Mac laptop.

The most bomb-proof solution was the MIDI file player built into the Akai S2000 sampler, although it did entail taking most of my studio out to the gig.

The worst was a floppy disk based MIDI file player. Totally unreliable (although it never actually died during a gig) we got through 3 before both myself and the retailer I had bought it from admitted defeat and I got my money back.

My current band uses a hodge-podge ensemble of loopers synths with arpegiators, drum machines, MIDI synchronised effects and a Tenori-On. It sounds like a mess but the distributed approach has certain reliability benefits in that if part fails it won't bring everything down with it.

[ironside1966]

I thought I might post a version of a track I did a few years ago

As you can see it is not karaoke

You could use a DAT ,minidisk, hard disk or any player that gives good quality signal output, but it must be a secure connection.

click side to a small amp then to the headphones for the drummer, the other to the PA

The other option is you could use a hard disk multi track recorder or ADAT so you can separate the sounds say piano, strings or brass, lead plus click.

If you get some someone to do them for you ask them to send them you as individual tracks and mix them yourself

Another option is to buy a work station like the Roland JV 2080 and buy the midi files and use midi live, the plus side is that it is very flexible and you could even program your lights or change FX units but it can be unreliable

[Norbert]

Thaks Guys.............thats the sort of info we need to hear...............has anyone tried using an iPod?

[jmstone]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='574768' date='Aug 19 2009, 09:32 PM']I thought I might post a version of a track I did a few years ago

As you can see it is not karaoke

You could use a DAT ,minidisk, hard disk or any player that gives good quality signal output, but it must be a secure connection.

click side to a small amp then to the headphones for the drummer, the other to the PA

The other option is you could use a hard disk multi track recorder or ADAT so you can separate the sounds say piano, strings or brass, lead plus click.

If you get some someone to do them for you ask them to send them you as individual tracks and mix them yourself

Another option is to buy a work station like the Roland JV 2080 and buy the midi files and use midi live, the plus side is that it is very flexible and you could even program your lights or change FX units but it can be unreliable[/quote]

The bleed over of the click track echo (ie out of time) is a bit offputting, but otherwise sounds good (although a bit midi instruments to my ears) and I can see how it might work in a band setting. Do you have a recording of your band playing with this track?

[ironside1966]

Yes I see what you mean the FX are still stereo
What I normal do is bounce the click first than add the track for that reason, but to save time I quickly panned and did it in one take

Sorry no I have no band recordings as I did this for another band

Edited August 19, 2009 by ironside1966

[Tradfusion]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='574853' date='Aug 19 2009, 10:25 PM']Yes I see what you mean the FX are still stereo
What I normal do is bounce the click first than add the track for that reason, but to save time I quickly panned and did it in one take

Sorry no I have no band recordings as I did this for another band[/quote]

Very nice little track ...if we had 50 of those we'd be laughing!!

[12stringbassist]

It was during a performance of Quadrophenia that relied too heavily on tapes
that Townshend attacked Bob Pridden. the monitor mix was useless.
WGFA and Baba OReilly were never a problem for The Who.
Rabbit often plays the ARP part on WGFA these days.

No offence to anyone at all who uses backing tapes, but I have walked out of pubs
immediately when I can't see the keyboard player who is holding the song together.
It just winds me up in a bad way. I can stay at home and listen to pre-recorded music.
With only a few notable exceptions, I certainly wouldn't pay to hear it.

[leschirons]

[quote name='silddx' post='573128' date='Aug 18 2009, 03:30 PM']I knew you'd feel that way.[/quote]

So did I. (Bilbo about the issue that is)

Edited August 19, 2009 by leschirons

[leschirons]

[quote name='crez5150' post='574307' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:27 PM']Or use them properly to build a fantastic sound and so people will pay you more anyway..... ;o)[/quote]

+1
Music is music, so, whatever it takes to make a great sound and be more entertaining.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='12stringbassist' post='574904' date='Aug 19 2009, 11:21 PM']It was during a performance of Quadrophenia that relied too heavily on tapes
that Townshend attacked Bob Pridden.[/quote]

You're quite right. Thanks for the amendment. My memory's failing me.

Edited August 19, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Jase]

[quote name='Norbert' post='574712' date='Aug 19 2009, 08:42 PM']So, Question……………How do the pro bands like Nightwish set up their backing tracks? What equipment do they use?[/quote]

I'm not sure what the big guys use but we have just started to use a Toshiba 550 laptop, an Emu 1616 interface, Patch Mix DSP and Sonar 8. It's an absolute mission to set up. There are 3 tracks being used, one is a click which goes to the drummers headphone amp, the two other tracks go to the desk/PA. It all seems stable so far but the big test is using it live, which I'm sure the sweat will be on and the niggling thoughts at the back of our minds...."is this going to be a disaster?"

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Jase' post='575013' date='Aug 20 2009, 01:45 AM']It all seems stable so far but the big test is using it live, which I'm sure the sweat will be on and the niggling thoughts at the back of our minds...."is this going to be a disaster?"[/quote]

Well, the obvious solution would be for each of you to record your part onto the backing track, ideally each on a seperate track.

That way, if any of your performances can't match the click track or the backing tracks or how you remember it sounding last time, you can just bring up the pre-recorded part and mime instead.

Or go and get a beer at the bar and check out the band on stage.

Sounds like a plan to me.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='leschirons' post='574936' date='Aug 19 2009, 11:48 PM']Music is music, so, whatever it takes to make a great sound and be more entertaining.[/quote]

Yes and no. The argument that is raging here is that these backing tracks don't actually 'make a great sound' but merely cover up for a weak one - the difference is more then semantic. And the discussions also shows that, for some, the use of backing tracks makes the event less and not more entertaining. There are a myriad of examples of solo intrumentalists and singers doing beautiful things with one monophonic sound, things that represent real wow! moments for many listeners. That is rarely achieved by layering more and more and more sounds onto a piece.

More is not commensurate with better.

'Filling up' the sound of an ensemble with backing tracks is arguably dehumanising. Not necessarily a problem in itself but, for many in the audience, including some who have posted here, it puts a downer on the act and immediately demotes it to second rate. Many audience members value honesty in the music they listen to and respond to artistic integrity. Many of those people see the use of a backing track as compromising that integrity (there are still some that wince at the use of a synthesiser ). Many people who happen upon a solo singer with backing tapes just laugh derisorily and leave by the nearest exit. The use of backing tapes in a bnad setting can have a similar effect.

Use what you have creatively and make every note count.

[crez5150]

George Michaels concerts last year were all backing tracks regardless of the musicians on stage..... he even has a Yamaha PM series desk stage right that he adjusts the mixes himself......

[JTUK]

yes... it is a fine line...

A covers band in a pub would have a few heading for the door..and I'd be one of them 95% of the time.

I am not a fan of 3 part bands ( gtr, bass and drums ) at the best of times for this reason...as the set can be limited.
Of course, it depends on the band as some 3 pieces are great, just not so much my cup of tea.

If you embellish the sound of a great band, as long as it doesn't hold the thing together, then maybe... but if the sound is weak..and it is fundemental..then no...IMO.

I don't follow the 'can't afford the extra muso' thing either..what sort of money are we talking abvout splitting..?

and it still takes a drummer to play to click..which isn't the easisest thing ...
I'd start there, if I were you..because if he can't do this..then you are on the back foot straight away...

[wesfinn]

Most bands use backing tracks now, well most bands that apprear in the charts anyway. I used to be a bit unsure but once you start it adds a whole new dimension to to the sound. I don't think it is cheating or faking in anyway unless you are miming parts. the thing that you have to remember is that its not there as another musician its there to compliment what you are doing. so getting a balance on which tracks to use can be tricky. it's a good idea to get a producer in to help you out when running backing tracks at first as they are a fresh pair of ears who can sculp the backing around what you are doing. it's not good to do it the other way round.

as everyone hasd said a click for the drummer is a must though! and also i'd recomend getting a small hardisk recorder to run the tracks from and not a laptop...theres nothing worse than your mac or pc freezing halfway through a song! also with this you can send a seperate click to the drummer and have the tracks coming out of another LR signal.

[teej]

I have to say that here I'm generally with BarnacleBob, Happy Jack and Bilbo et al, but I'm also impressed that the OP seems throughout the thread a decent person and is struggling here. So I'll try and keep off the rant, tempting as it might be.

Sorry, I can't help you with the backing track issues, I've never used them and cannot imagine doing so for the foreseeable future. What I'll try and do instead is explain why I think it would be a mistake to go that route, for practical not ethical reasons.

As I see it, to do more than merely survive in the competitive live music business you need an angle (or 2), that marks you out as different, better maybe, but different and memorable certainly. Backing tracks may fill out your sound, but they'll cast you in the same mould as countless unimaginative covers outfits working in the same places as you, with backing tracks, I'll bet there are loads of soloists and duos already doing just that. You need to break away.

You need to break away because your goal must be to get out of these low paid gigs and by conforming to what they expect you're delaying the day when you can do that. I can't say exactly what your angle should be, but it sounds as if it's likely to be very much about the vocals. Look to your strengths, and sidestep/eliminate your weaknesses (my main band travels light with minimal kit - but we're not a band that can't play loud, we're band that [b]can[/b] play at low volume, and there are lots of low volume gigs out there, restaurants etc and the big gigs provide a pa/sound-engineer).

Now, it may be that your choice of material (and I understand your reasons for that choice) conspire against the kind of approach we take, but I would reiterate what others have posted, that a good song should work with just a guitar/vocals arrangement - maybe you need to weed out some weak material.

I'll offer a couple more examples from my own career.

Red Jackson, a guitar/vocals, drums, bass trio, have the same instrumentation as you. Now we don't do pop songs, but we do a bunch of jump blues/swing numbers originally performed by much larger bands with horn section, piano etc. The front man, having been playing guitar seated in true bluesman style, puts the guitar down, stands up and blows harmonica into the vocal mic cupped in both hands, pacing around the stage (possibly even wandering into the crowd) - he also has a cow bell attached to his mic stand, and a samba whistle hanging from it; and I slap the upright like a good'un. Instead of attempting to compensate for the lack of horns and piano, we strip the song back to its groove and jam on it, free to bring it down, back up again, and segue into another song if we feel like it (try doing that with backing tracks). These tend to be amongst our most successful numbers. We do play a few pubs, and a lot of weddings, but this year also played the main stage at Winchester Hat Fair in front of 2-3000 people.

The Ukes of Hazzard are a quartet, and we do some big band stuff, like Duke Ellington's 'Caravan', with 3 ukuleles, 3 voices and a double bass: again we make no attempt to replace the missing instruments, the arrangement of the instruments available conveys enough of the original for it to be recognizable and makes it ours, hopefully in an entertaining way - we're a cabaret/comedy act. We rarely play pubs or weddings, but get gigs at retro clubs (gypsy jazz, burlesque etc) and festivals, including Glastonbury where we've performed at Lost Vagueness and Albion.

I cite these examples partly to demonstrate alternative approaches, but also [s]to show off[/s] because the best gigs we do, and the even better ones we aspire to would be barred to us if we used backing tracks.

[Jase]

As much as I would like to have a band of humans, it's not always possible. Far too many musicians are unreliable, end of story and I've not got the time to hang around for pathetic excuses why somebody can't make a gig or can't make a rehearsal or has forgotten or not learned their parts.