Bands using Backing Tracks (MP3)

[xilddx]

The fact is, the nay-sayers' attitude is "I don't care if you have a forty piece band, backing tracks are out of order" and the yea-sayers use them as an augmentation or a substitute for people for a number of reasons.

What makes me laugh though is the bit where some of the nay-sayers recommend getting a keyboard player instead, to simulate the strings and horns and whatnot, and that is better than a backing track. There's some hypocrisy going on here really, in the name of "artistic integrity".

When I go to see Jase's band I want to hear the full glory of the songs as they are meant to sound, not an empty version with no BVs , keys and second guitar, just because of misguided "artistic integrity". Go get your BTs sorted Jase. And bollocks to unreliable "musicians".

[ironside1966]

A lot of the criticism seems to come from people in niche market bands where backing tracks would be inappropriate, but people should realize that there is a market out there for good up-to-date cover bands and to do that you need the help of tracks, okay there are more rockier songs in the charts, but the world is full of rock bands.

I have worked across the Uk and Europe mainly working with cover and tribute bands
Successful cover bands don’t please musicians they please your average punters

Once you get away from the dog and duck type venue
People want to hear songs that sound like the record and not other arrangements it is all right for one or two songs and even great for a original band to do it.
I live in Yorkshire and have seen bands try their own clever arrangements when the audience expects a cover band, all you got from the audience was a constant shouting play something we know.

As for personal development backing is used a lot in the pro would so it is good to at least understand in and another experience you have and something you can bring to your next band should it be required.

Here what I don’t get
A band wants to play contemporary songs ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna the singer thinks that she can sing them well, that band thinks that the can play the well also but to do that you need the help of backing,
Done well there is work out there people want to listen to that music and don’t care if there are tracks involved or not. Yes they could rework the songs but this might not be as successful. So what is everybody’s problem? the only downside is that they may never get invited to play at a bass chat bash.

Get out of the dark ages It’s a big would out there with room for diversity, you may not like the band or what they are doing but respect the right for them to do it.

Good luck with band Tradfusion make your decision on what’s right for the band and not anyone else if I can help PM me

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='575510' date='Aug 20 2009, 01:34 PM']I live in Yorkshire and have seen bands try their own clever arrangements when the audience expects a cover band, all you got from the audience was a constant shouting play something we know.[/quote]

That assumes that those that don't shout anything agree with those that do. Most people just don't shout in public but nevertheless consume quietly.

[quote]As for personal development backing is used a lot in the pro would so it is good to at least understand in and another experience you have and something you can bring to your next band should it be required.[/quote]

With respect, it ain't rocket science. If the drummer can play with a click, the rest is easy - and, yes, I have done it and it was.

[quote]A band wants to play contemporary songs ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna ......,
Done well there is work out there people want to listen to that music[/quote]

Yes there are, but they aren't old enough to go into pubs

[quote]Get out of the dark ages[/quote]

There is an argument that some are walking wide eyed into a new one.

[quote]It’s a big would out there with room for diversity, you may not like the band or what they are doing but respect the right for them to do it.[/quote]

No problem, as long as people can respect the fact that some of us have opinions that run counter to those of others and choose to express them, reasonably politely, on bass forums.

[quote]Good luck with band Tradfusion make your decision on what’s right for the band and not anyone else if I can help PM me[/quote]

Likewise

[Jase]

[quote name='silddx' post='575497' date='Aug 20 2009, 01:29 PM']The fact is, the nay-sayers' attitude is "I don't care if you have a forty piece band, backing tracks are out of order" and the yea-sayers use them as an augmentation or a substitute for people for a number of reasons.

What makes me laugh though is the bit where some of the nay-sayers recommend getting a keyboard player instead, to simulate the strings and horns and whatnot, and that is better than a backing track. There's some hypocrisy going on here really, in the name of "artistic integrity".

When I go to see Jase's band I want to hear the full glory of the songs as they are meant to sound, not an empty version with no BVs , keys and second guitar, just because of misguided "artistic integrity". Go get your BTs sorted Jase. And bollocks to unreliable "musicians".[/quote]

Cheers butty!

[tayste_2000]

Well I've read most of this thread it's amazing how polarised people are about this subject.

My band plays to backing track, our set is a tidy 30 minutes and played with 2 wav tracks.

On these backing tracks we have intros and outro's, 808's, pianos, violins etc.

What is also going to be happening soon is these backing tracks are going to trigger DMX lighting fx and vocal processing (verb and delay etc)

Now we could get other members in to play these parts, I could also get a lighting guy in to do the lights and a sound guy to trigger the vocal effects in just the right place, but we just can't afford to tour with like 10 people or so to run the act I particularly don't want a dedicated 808 player . Also adding members to bands is more than just people playing instruments, there is a band dynamic, relationships etc. Also my band plays some pretty big stages, we use this space to perform in, can't do that with a 3 piece orchestra and piano player on there as well as the person controlling the lights.

None of our fans feel cheated by the show, it's not like we have vocals on the backing tracks, just instruments that add to the sound. These are instruments that were used on the album and played in the studio, sometimes by session people, they aren't integral to the song but they do make it sound better.

If we took away everything that wasn't integral to the music where would we end up? Singer songwriters?

As stated a lot/most pro bands do it, Muse, Nine Inch Nails, Foo Fighters etc

[Bilbo]

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='575559' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:18 PM']If we took away everything that wasn't integral to the music where would we end up? Singer songwriters?[/quote]

God forbid!

[quote]As stated a lot/most pro bands do it, Muse, Nine Inch Nails, Foo Fighters etc[/quote]

That makes it ok, then.

[Tradfusion]

Cheers for all the advice and encouragement lads, I'm off to play Soldiers for the weekend so I cant make any more contributions for a while, anyway it is a healthy debate and music is after all supposed to be fun as well as everything else. I intend to take a stab at using some BT's, if it works great, and if not..well nobody died!! I have a much better clue as to the pros and cons, snags and tech stuff now than I had before I started the thread... Cheers... Dave

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='575565' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:24 PM']God forbid! [/quote]

Well yeah to be honest, we'd have one type of artist, someone on stage with a guitar, maybe not even that if they feel the guitar isn't really integral, it can just go on and on.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='575565' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:24 PM']That makes it ok, then. :lol[/quote]

Justifies it a hell of a lot better than some guys playing in a pub just refusing to change anything what so ever.

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='575568' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:26 PM']Cheers for all the advice and encouragement lads, I'm off to play Soldiers for the weekend so I cant make any more contributions for a while, anyway it is a healthy debate and music is after all supposed to be fun as well as everything else. I intend to take a stab at using some BT's, if it works great, and if not..well nobody died!! I have a much better clue as to the pros and cons, snags and tech stuff now than I had before I started the thread... Cheers... Dave [/quote]

I know quite a few bands that just use an Ipod to run their backing tracks, so it can work just fine. We've just chosen to go a much more in depth route than that to control other elements of the show.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='575574' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:30 PM']Well yeah to be honest, we'd have one type of artist, someone on stage with a guitar, maybe not even that if they feel the guitar isn't really integral, it can just go on and on.

Justifies it a hell of a lot better than some guys playing in a pub just refusing to change anything what so ever.[/quote]

Noone came anywhere near advocating that other than those seeking to undermine with sarcasm the arguments being presented.

[geilerbass]

We use a backing track in a couple of songs in one of my bands. In one case, there is a guitar lead line in the chorus and a rhythm part and we have only one guitarist. It just doesn't work as well without both, so the solution was a backing track. In the other case, we have a break section in the middle with some heavy-sounding, layered strings and another keyboard part - it's just not physically possible for our keyboard player to do both so, again, backing track.

In both cases, it's simply to enhance the live sound and emulate the feel and atmosphere that is on the record. I think it works and never sounds as though suddenly there's a backing track.

With regards to the technical side of it, we got the guy who recorded the album to give us a mix of the tracks with just the parts that we needed in the backing, along with a click track. It's a stereo mix with the backing panned fully to one side and the click fully to the other. The tracks are WAVs, I believe and are played off an Ipod through a small mixer, where the signal is split into left and right. The side with the click goes as a mono signal into a pair of headphones for our drummer and the backing side goes out through as a mono signal to the desk (usually through a DI box).

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='geilerbass' post='575602' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:48 PM']With regards to the technical side of it, we got the guy who recorded the album to give us a mix of the tracks with just the parts that we needed in the backing, along with a click track. It's a stereo mix with the backing panned fully to one side and the click fully to the other. The tracks are WAVs, I believe and are played off an Ipod through a small mixer, where the signal is split into left and right. The side with the click goes as a mono signal into a pair of headphones for our drummer and the backing side goes out through as a mono signal to the desk (usually through a DI box).[/quote]

Seems like it's only my drummer who complains about not being able to hear anything on stage, we've had to develop a fairly complex setup for him to get an IEM mix

[teej]

I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I was just attempting to offer what I consider the best advice to the OP in my professional opinion, and doing so because he doesn't sound totally decided on his course, nor do I get the impression that he's totally comfortable with the technology. I don't expect anyone to follow my advice. I don't even really want anyone to follow my advice. It's better for me if acts continue to bang out the same set lists as each other and rely on technology to help them along with it - it makes the contrast between myself and them that much stronger.

I'm also not anti-tech, I've seen and enjoyed Gotan Project and Massive Attack, and I reckon I'd really like silddx's outfit by the sound of it, but the OP is not talking about massive sounding ambient global grooves but pop songs in small venues.

Sometimes a niche is an excellent place to be in: far from being a restriction it's a neat way of knowing exactly how and where to market yourself. 'Do one thing and do it damn well' is an excellent business model (Twitter, anyone?).

Here's a perfect example of what I was talking about: I just got back from a shopping trip into town and saw this act busking, they're called Davis. Never seen them before, but this is a band with their angle pretty much sorted out. OK, the guy could do with working on his look a little perhaps, and you can't hear them, but please take my word for it when I say that these are 2 excellent singers (the girls), with perfectly competent acoustic guitar and a great drummer (what are those box things called?). I heard them do Redemption Song (a busking cliche but done well) and Crazy. They've got a couple of gigs coming up in town, not in 'The Dog and Duck' but in a smart olde worlde food pub and a trendy wine bar. Busking in the right pitch in the right town, they could easily make what 'The Dog and Duck' would pay for a covers band, each. I know, because that's exactly what I do.

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='teej' post='575624' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:02 PM']what are those box things called?[/quote]

Cajon

Literally spanish for box

Pronounced Ka Hon

[teej]

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='575631' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:08 PM']Cajon

Literally spanish for box

Pronounced Ka Hon[/quote]
That's the one, thanks, I knew it was something like that that, but not to be confused with cahones

[tayste_2000]

Most definitely.

Yeah I just sat in the street beating my Cajones while 2 women sat around me and sang

It's an easy mistake to make and could get you in big big trouble

[Bilbo]

One of my small group Latin oufits has a percussionist who uses, amongst other things, a Cajon. Its a surprisingly versatile instrument and I can imagine it would be great for busking (I also like that clay pot thing with a hole in (well, two holes actually. One at the top and one in the side. Huge sound)).

[thisnameistaken]

My 2p:

I've played in a band that used sequenced tracks before (despite having five instrumentalists, two vocalists and a DJ on stage). While it always sounded good live, it was a fairly boring experience for the band. No real room to mess with dynamics, no space to improvise or play the crowd, every song was basically the same every night.

So yeah it did "work" and I don't think the audience even noticed they were using sequenced tracks but I think everybody involved would have preferred it if they'd approached their live stuff in a different way. Luckily we never had any technical problems on stage but we did in rehearsals and suffice to say when a computer goes down it's a lot worse than a musician fluffing a part!

[geilerbass]

'Cajon' in Spanish, actually translates to 'drawer', I believe - but ultimately, it implies something in which you put stuff. Sorry, feeling pedantic today.

The drummer in one of my bands has one - sounds great, though we're struggling to find a way to integrate it with our progressive-extreme metal sound.

Edited August 20, 2009 by geilerbass

[teej]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='575664' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:29 PM']My 2p:

I've played in a band that used sequenced tracks before (despite having five instrumentalists, two vocalists and a DJ on stage). While it always sounded good live, it was a fairly boring experience for the band. No real room to mess with dynamics, no space to improvise or play the crowd, every song was basically the same every night.

So yeah it did "work" and I don't think the audience even noticed they were using sequenced tracks but I think everybody involved would have preferred it if they'd approached their live stuff in a different way. Luckily we never had any technical problems on stage but we did in rehearsals and suffice to say when a computer goes down it's a lot worse than a musician fluffing a part![/quote]
I think this lack of spontaneity and flexibility is what bugs me the most.

[lowdown]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='575648' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:17 PM']One of my small group Latin oufits has a percussionist who uses, amongst other things, a Cajon. Its a surprisingly versatile instrument[/quote]

Be even more versatile if it had a Midi trigger on it.


I am for Augmenting situations when need be.
And over the years i have never walked away from a working situation
Thinking the 8 bar whatever sample on track in the middle section of whatever
pulled down the musical integrity of the situation, Or the rest of us the Band/Orchestra are fakes.
I do know in some situations it does not work well or at all,
in a swing Jazz situation for example...or i have never heard it work to my ears.

The funny thing to me is that there are plenty of Musicians who do not like the idea of tracks
But will post MP3's of them selves all over tinternet Jamming or telling us they are being creative,
[b]Playing over loops etc[/b], that they put together in Logic, Reaper, Cubase or whatever.
Thats using trax aint it.

Each to their own and what works in their situation.
Pretty much sure 99% of an Audience in a pub would not know or care less
What you did - as long as 'Valerie' or 'Who let the dogs out' was in the set list. [And Mustang Sally]

Garry

Edited August 20, 2009 by lowdown

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='teej' post='575672' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:34 PM']I think this lack of spontaneity and flexibility is what bugs me the most.[/quote]

And, I think despite the audiences being none the wiser, I'm sure they would've enjoyed the shows more if we hadn't used a sequencer. There was enough talent there to carry it off and the material would've stood up without the studio parts.

I just think live should mean live, it's a unique performance especially for whoever's within earshot, done right there and then, warts and all. I think trying to sound like a record takes some of the spirit of it away and it's always a lesser show as a result, even if you can pull it off.

I think I was doubly disappointed because I'd just come from a 10-piece band that had really gelled well, and could do ridiculous things with the songs at the drop of a hat. We were so comfortable with it we ended up playing practical (and musical) jokes on eachother during gigs, our stage show got really unpredictable, and people just love that stuff.

Edited August 20, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[Bilbo]

[quote name='teej' post='575672' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:34 PM']I think this lack of spontaneity and flexibility is what bugs me the most.[/quote]

Absolutely. Its a straight jacket!

[teej]

[quote name='lowdown' post='575702' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:59 PM']Each to their own and what works in their situation.
Pretty much sure 99% of an Audience in a pub would not know or care less
What you did - as long as 'Valerie' or 'Who let the dogs out' was in the set list. [And Mustang Sally]

Garry[/quote]

That's kind of my point - suggesting ways to get out of playing in venues like that.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='lowdown' post='575702' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:59 PM']The funny thing to me is that there are plenty of Musicians who do not like the idea of tracks
But will post MP3's of them selves all over tinternet Jamming or telling us they are being creative,
[b]Playing over loops etc[/b], that they put together in Logic, Reaper, Cubase or whatever.
Thats using trax aint it.[/quote]
That's a recording not a live performance. Isn't this thread about using backing tracks in a live situation?

Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse if someone uses a backing track as long as I don't have to listen to it.

The worst offenders I've ever heard were buskers with more gear and bigger PA than the average pub band doing earsplitting panpipe karaoke to backing tracks. Terrible.