Bands using Backing Tracks (MP3)

[xilddx]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='575709' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:05 PM']Absolutely. Its a straight jacket![/quote]
Nonsense. The straight jacket is not being allowed that extra sonic flexibility because of "artistic integrity".

I realise you guys are into jamming on stage, but my bands are about finely tuned songs which sound more or less the same each time we play them. HOWEVER, we do improvise over the tracks to some degree and play beyond the track length occasionally, and some of the songs have no backing tracks.

Edited August 20, 2009 by silddx

[ironside1966]

“That's kind of my point - suggesting ways to get out of playing in venues like that”.

What’s wrong with venues like that?


How spontaneous will a cover band? allow in any case most band I know are spontaneous in prearranged places and rigid in others.
There are ways you can allow cord sequence say for a solo to go on as long as you want.
You can juggle or play any song you want, you can keep going as long as you want.

Personally I like a slick band and losing the baggage can be a good thing who wants to listen to a guitarist w**k of all night.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='silddx' post='575720' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:15 PM']Nonsense. The straight jacket is not being allowed that extra sonic flexibility because of "artistic integrity".[/quote]

FWIW I wasn't talking about any high-minded art bollocks, I just think using sequencers tends to make songs a bit stiff. I've no issue with using samples if you've got a flexible way of incorporating them, or (preferably) a turntablist to do it. One of my bands is experimenting with using a "producer" live to tweak effects and the mix on-the-fly because they have a more electronic sound and it seems like the most practical way to get some studio-like trickery on stage without resorting to pre-recorded tracks or clock-bound automation.

[teej]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='575716' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:11 PM']The worst offenders I've ever heard were buskers with more gear and bigger PA than the average pub band doing earsplitting panpipe karaoke to backing tracks. Terrible.[/quote]
Oboy! These guys could be the biggest contributors to my personal dislike for backing tracks. And a good illustration of what I perceive as the true public perception of their use. As a regular street performer with a small band we can build a big crowd, hold them and get their money, while the soloists and duos with their minidisc backing get just a few stragglers. I see it happen nearly every week.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='575716' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:11 PM']That's a recording not a live performance. Isn't this thread about using backing tracks in a live situation?[/quote]


Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse.
Just joining in the fun!

Garry

[teej]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='575737' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:23 PM']“That's kind of my point - suggesting ways to get out of playing in venues like that”.

What’s wrong with venues like that?[/quote]
Well, excuse me, but I got the impression that they weren't paying the OP enough ££

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='teej' post='575743' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:25 PM']As a regular street performer with a small band we can build a big crowd, hold them and get their money,[/quote]

I must confess I am quite jealous of you, it sounds like a right bark.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='teej' post='575747' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:29 PM']Well, excuse me, but I got the impression that they weren't paying the OP enough ££ [/quote]

Looks like we have got are wire crossed
The guy wants to get out of the cheap dog and duck type gigs and move on to the better paid venues for cover bands, but these well venues want a band to sound good and entertain.
The audiences in these venues don’t care if you use tracks or not they want songs the can recognize to sound like they should and believe me there are some good bands competing for the really good money gigs.


Also the kind of tracks a band would use its totally different it’s like having a keyboard player that’s all

[Jase]

The straight jacket thing....depends what you're doing really doesn't it, jamming and improv is great and I love to do it but there is also material that requires rehearsal and discipline. There is [i]some[/i] room for movement when using a click providing the drummer has it together.
Using the tracks last night didn't seem as sterile as I thought it might.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='575739' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:25 PM']FWIW I wasn't talking about any high-minded art bollocks, I just think using sequencers tends to make songs a bit stiff. I've no issue with using samples if you've got a flexible way of incorporating them, or (preferably) a turntablist to do it. One of my bands is experimenting with using a "producer" live to tweak effects and the mix on-the-fly because they have a more electronic sound and it seems like the most practical way to get some studio-like trickery on stage without resorting to pre-recorded tracks or clock-bound automation.[/quote]
The problem is that it all depends on the band, the music, the whole shebang whether backing tracks work or not. IT ALL DEPENDS!

The problem with this thread is that there's a lot of theorising and philosophical crap being said without any practical experience, just based on a theoretical POV. If my local jazz festival is anything to go by, there are no BTs there, loads of improvising and solos, and it's about as exciting as a snail sleepover.

EDIT: thisnameistaken - this is not aimed at you, should have made that clear.

Edited August 20, 2009 by silddx

[lowdown]

[quote name='teej' post='575712' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:10 PM']That's kind of my point - suggesting ways to get out of playing in venues like that.[/quote]

Teej,

I keep forgetting to mention..
I love 'The Ukes of Hazzard'
You've Got a Friend is tops dude.


Garry

[teej]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='575766' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:42 PM']Looks like we have got are wire crossed
The guy wants to get out of the cheap dog and duck type gigs and move on to the better paid venues for cover bands, but these well venues want a band to sound good and entertain.
The audiences in these venues don’t care if you use tracks or not they want songs the can recognize to sound like they should and believe me there are some good bands competing for the really good money gigs.


Also the kind of tracks a band would use its totally different it’s like having a keyboard player that’s all[/quote]
I get all this, I really do - but what they need is an angle, more than backing tracks: even with BTs, they'll still need something to mark themselves out as different and memorable.

[skankdelvar]

Re; the getting out of certain venues... something I missed in his original post was that the OP uses keys for his other bigger and presumably more prestigious gigs. Augmentation is for the less-well paid jobs.

Which kinda makes sense. Frankly, I can't find much to disagree with in anyone's arguments - I hate Karaoke Pan-pipes with a vengeance; as a punter, I'm not keen on BT's; I probably couldn't work with them (I'm too sloppy) and presumably they bind you down at certain points in a song.

That said, it's his choice and good luck to him. Same to Bilbo for chucking his best-paid gig to go stretch his boundaries.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; the word of Sin is Restriction.

Edited August 20, 2009 by skankdelvar

[lowdown]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='575739' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:25 PM']I just think using sequencers tends to make songs a bit stiff.[/quote]

Yes they can,
But thats down to programming the Midi info and not sticking to the grid.
Thats the Art [ if you can call it that ].
Plenty of serious dude's around these days who have got that down.
When not done properly, yep does sound awful.

Garry

[teej]

[quote name='lowdown' post='575776' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:48 PM']Teej,

I keep forgetting to mention..
I love 'The Ukes of Hazzard'
You've Got a Friend is tops dude.


Garry[/quote]
Aww thanks Garry (but did you have to pick the one song they recorded before I joined?)

[teej]

[quote name='silddx' post='575774' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:47 PM']The problem with this thread is that there's a lot of theorising and philosophical crap being said without any practical experience, just based on a theoretical POV. If my local jazz festival is anything to go by, there are no BTs there, loads of improvising and solos, and it's about as exciting as a snail sleepover.[/quote]
Believe me I have plenty of experience of seeing solists with BTs struggling in the street while we draw in the punters and their money

There's no theorising in the street, you get to see instantly and brutally what works and what doesn't.

[xilddx]

[quote name='teej' post='575794' date='Aug 20 2009, 05:00 PM']Believe me I have plenty of experience of seeing solists with BTs struggling in the street while we draw in the punters and their money

There's no theorising in the street, you get to see instantly and brutally what works and what doesn't.[/quote]

Sorry, wasn't aimed at you either teej, i know you have more than enough experience of seeing acts with crap backing tracks or who can't play with them.

[teej]

[quote name='silddx' post='575798' date='Aug 20 2009, 05:04 PM']Sorry, wasn't aimed at you either teej, i know you have more than enough experience of seeing acts with crap backing tracks or who can't play with them.[/quote]
Hey, I didn't think it was either, but you just left a door open for me

[xilddx]

[quote name='teej' post='575802' date='Aug 20 2009, 05:06 PM']Hey, I didn't think it was either, but you just left a door open for me [/quote]

[ironside1966]

[quote name='teej' post='575779' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:51 PM']I get all this, I really do - but what they need is an angle, more than backing tracks: even with BTs, they'll still need something to mark themselves out as different and memorable.[/quote]

Hey we agree on something at last
Using BT’s is not going to solve all their problems but they may help them, they do need to find their strengths and something to make them unique and memorable.
They want to move forward playing contemporary pop if they have good vocals and harmonies then this might be the right way forward but they need to put on a good show this is just as important as how the band sounds

All this takes a lot of thought and hard work.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='lowdown' post='575782' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:53 PM']Yes they can,
But thats down to programming the Midi info and not sticking to the grid.
Thats the Art [ if you can call it that ].
Plenty of serious dude's around these days who have got that down.
When not done properly, yep does sound awful.[/quote]

Like I said, the band I was doing did sound good, it was just a bit dull for all involved. And no matter how little of the track is sequenced it still feels like you're playing along to a recording, sometimes it even feels like you *are* recording, the computer or the DAT or whatever is always running the show.

[Ricki_Bass_DK]

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574294' date='Aug 19 2009, 04:20 PM']So the majority of you guys think backing tracks are complete sh**e! I have never really gone to hear a band using them to be honest so I suppose that would be a good idea... our little 4 piece is'nt bad as we are, so maybe it is a re-thinking of the set list and that, our vocalist is female and she keeps picking songs that suit her voice and that she fancies herself, alot of them are fairly contemporary ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna etc so thats where we sound pretty twee with just the 1 guitar, bass and drums. Stuff like Blondie, Pretenders, Fleetwood mac etc we can horse out and they sound fine... we were trying to include some of the recent hits because people keep asking for them. As for the extra musician, we are on a set fee for the pub gigs and if we bring someone else on board we have another cut in the already (IMO) paltry fee, we have other gigs like weddings etc where we can afford a keyboard player and its great, makes all the difference... Oh well, back to the drawing board.. [/quote]

If this thread is to be taken [b]back on track[/b] ( got it? ) I will suggest that you make some very simple backtracks where you simply put a click in the left channel of a stereo mix and the tracks in the right. Then it will do, and you can try out if this is what you want. Use some sort of Cubase, Audition, Garageband or anything similar.
If you decide to go along with the idea after having tried it out ( it is a little more complex to get to work, than it sounds ) then you need to get up a step or two.

I use a Macbook and Logic Pro with a MOTU firewire interface. Then I can make as many tracks as I wish AND I can route whichever click I want to its own output....for the drummer to use. Be aware that the drummers have different wishes regarding how the click is produces. Some only want 1/4-notes and some want 1/16 notes. I needs to be tested which works best for your drummer.

I think that it is ok to use backtracks. I occasionally play in a band with tracks, and it is great fun BUT you need to be able to groove along with the tracks - not as easy as it sounds.
Good luck with the project. It absolutely is do-able, so go ahead - it is a playground

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='575108' date='Aug 20 2009, 09:06 AM']Many of those people see the use of a backing track as compromising that integrity (there are still some that wince at the use of a synthesiser ).[/quote]

I saw an Isaac Hayes gig from a few years before he died and he had two or three keys players other than himself who seemed to do nothing but play the strings and brass parts to his tunes. He had about 15 people onstage with him. Why not ditch two keys players and replace them with a cellist and violinist? It definitely diminished my enjoyment of the show - but the show was still so good that I enjoyed it anyway.

I have no problem with analogue synths (or someone playing a Nord-style virtual analogue synth or a vintage keyboard-sampled soft synth through a MIDI interface and a laptop) but when I see a Yamaha Motif onstage and hear stale brass in the mix with no horn players on stage, it really bugs me.

In my singers' church, they have a big tradition of a capella singing - even instruments are seen as cheating! The sound some of those groups make with just 3 or 4 unaccompanied voices is enough to fill Wembley Arena (which I've witnessed first hand). It's all about the arrangements and the strength of your performance for me.

Having said all that, I've encouraged one of the singers to get a Korg KaossPad (which is excellent btw). He uses it to great effect at gigs - and can create, trigger, manipulate, loop and/or layer samples live. Is it 'cheating' to preload a drum loop onto it for him to load into the vocoder together with his voice and trigger, manipulate, loop etc.? I don't think so and I don't think it's a double standard.

Edited August 20, 2009 by The Funk

[The Funk]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='575510' date='Aug 20 2009, 01:34 PM']Successful cover bands don’t please musicians they please your average punters[/quote]

That's very true and like I tried to say earlier, I've got more sympathy for a covers / function band using backing tracks. Do whatever will please your audience, build your reputation and attract more/repeat business.

Your average punter probably can't identify which instrument is making which sound anyway.

[The Funk]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='575708' date='Aug 20 2009, 04:04 PM']I just think live should mean live, it's a unique performance especially for whoever's within earshot, done right there and then, warts and all.[/quote]

That's my approach but then I'm a firm believer in different 'live' and 'studio' arrangements (and 'acoustic' arrangements too!).

I do understand that for a lot of musicians (and fans) a live show is about perfectly recreating the record. I don't see that approach as not being valid, musically, ethically or otherwise. It's just not for me. Having said that, when I see a live arrangement of a tune that misses out the good bits of the studio arrangement, I get annoyed.

I think the most important principle (and maybe the only principle) to go by is that you can't please everyone - so just try to please whoever you're doing it for.