Reading Music

[nottswarwick]

I find that if I want to be able to do all types of job, I need to be able to read.

Plus as a teacher of bass, guitar and drums, I also need to be able to, and I teach all my students too where possible. It is not really that hard given a bit of discipline and practice.

OK so alot of gigs dont need the skill, and where possible I like to learn the gig so I dont need a pad of music. I rarely use one in fact. But at a dep function gig I did recently, where I knew all the stuff anyway, they had a couple of different arrangements with altered "pushes" etc, and it was useful to be able to read the keys players parts to see what was occurring.

So of course it depends what you are doing. it is my job, I earn my living at it, so I need to be able to.

[alexclaber]

I think it would be a really useful skill to have and if you have the time and inclination to learn to read I'd do so. I can decipher sheet music at a snail's pace (am better with rhythms than pitches, weirdly) and can read chord charts happily but I'd love to be able to score out horn parts quickly or read lead sheets when I have a go at jazz.

I don't think anyone playing bass guitar is likely to end up developing amazing reading skills at the expense of listening or improvisation skills, it's not that kind of instrument - there's too much weight given to picking stuff up by ear or making up bass lines to go with charts, etc.

One of my most useful skills in a band - apart from my ability to bore the pants off any annoying techheads or sound engineers - is being able to remember arrangements. I do notice though that when I write stuff down it's easy to use that as a crutch. Pino Palladino talked about 'trust chops' in an interview and I think that's a really great concept - trusting that you will know what to play next when you need to, even if you can't remember it in isolation. Like when you're driving somewhere you know the turnings to take when you get to them but you couldn't easily tell someone where the fifth junction is and what you do at it off the top of your head. So if you can read really well I'd also work on being able to remember a tune after the first run or two so you can get away from the paper.

A keyboardist I know is doing pretty well for himself gigging in one of the biggest bands in the country and he is a great reader and a serious jazz player, but now earns his money playing big synth pads and squelchy keyboard hooks. I still believe his greatest asset as a player is that he gets on really well with everyone, seemingly loves all music, and always sounds 100% commited to every note he plays. But I bet it's a lot easier to justify picking that kind of person when they also have great ears and can read whatever's put in front of them.

Alex

[bluesparky]

As always, i've decided to post without reading any of the above comments.
Personally, i can read music, and i'd like to think i can do it quite well too.
I transcribe everything I learn in standard notation and buy and download music in this form too.
This is only because i really enjoy reading music but please don't read this post as a self praising rant from me.

Kudos to philbillbass, because i also first learnt to read and enjoy music by playing trumpet too, i reached grade 6 before i realised 4 strings were more fun than 3 valves.

I use the fact i can read as much as i can and it is almost my downfall because i spend almost too much of my spare / practice time trying to perfect my reading skills whilst feeling that i should be spending more time just getting out there, playing with people and enjoying life.

Transcribing tunes is nice because i can pull books off of the bookshelf for years to come and know that all the info for any tune i've learnt is already there.

Where as when i do turn up at rehearsals (for a very relaxed "fun" band), i'm the one playing the first couple of run throughs from a book perfectly without locking into the band, where as the others are fluffing through yet having a great time rehearsing.

I've done gigs where it's been essential that i've had to be able to read, yet the best gigs of my life have been bashing a few standard rock classics out that everyone knows down the pub

So, in summary, i'd say it depends on what you want to do.

I'm not a professional player, but i love the fact i can read.

I'm crap at advice really!

[xilddx]

Personally speaking I think a certain level, maybe Grade 5 or 6, in piano would have the single biggest benefit to my life as a bassist and musician. But I just don't have time anymore, which is a bloody shame.

[lowdown]

[quote name='bluesparky' post='577217' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:42 PM']i also first learnt to read and enjoy music by playing trumpet too, i reached grade 6 before i realised 4 strings were more [b]fun than 3 valves.[/b]
I'm crap at advice really![/quote]


3 valves, you were lucky.
I had to put up with my mother shouting at me because i kept
dropping an oiled up slide all over her cream carpet!

Garry

[bluesparky]

[quote name='lowdown' post='577375' date='Aug 22 2009, 09:35 AM']3 valves, you were lucky.
I had to put up with my mother shouting at me because i kept
dropping an oiled up slide all over her cream carpet!

Garry[/quote]
Heh heh, those with a dirty mind might wonder if that was a euphemism for something.

[51m0n]

I wish I could read 'properly' - sight read. I can decipher stuff at a bit more than a crawl these days.

I dont have the time I once did to work on it, and when I did have the time I was working on other stuff to its detriment. Funnily enough I'm not a pro musician and never have been, and not being able to read dots, or even charts really, or having a wide enough stylistic repertoire are the real reasons I'm not and have never been, if I 'm feeling honest. Anyone reading this thinking about trying to go pro, you must get those things right!!

Like Alex I find the rhythms far easier than the pitches, mainly cos when I learnt first time around I wrote out the 142 or so bars of 16th note variations (not including ties) and clapped them over any pulse available for weeks - it got to be good fun (lock me away now!) and you can do it virtually anywhere - funny looks not withstanding.

Pitches I find much harder. I have been doing some more work on note recognition on the fretboard, but work/family/diy/breathing etc keep getting in the way. I will plug away, as I do think its an invaluable skill.

However it can go too far. When I was at music college, a good number of the less rock/pop instrumentalists were classically based. Especially keyboard players. A couple were superb readers (easily above grade 8), and both of them had a huge look of fear if you took the dots away and said, "lets just play some music". They were, for the first year of college, incapable of playing anything at all without dots, all they could do was read. When they finally broke this it was with a similar sense of achievement and joy as anyone blowing through their first reading gig without a problem. Really!

We need to be able to do it all competently, not end up relying on anything as a crutch IMO.

Final point you can learn a huge amount of theory without being able to sight read, just read well enough to decipher, or looking at theory from a more mathematical intervalic standpoint. But I think reading can really help tie it all together.

[Wil]

I have absolutely no desire to learn to read dots on a page.

However!

I was attempting to solo over Jeff Beck's "Cause we ended as lovers" last night and I couldn't help but wish I had a greater understanding of how the chord changes progressed, and how this affected what notes to use. Alas, I'm sure the only way to develop this understanding is learning dratted theory.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Wil' post='581105' date='Aug 26 2009, 10:43 AM']I'm sure the only way to develop this understanding is learning dratted theory.[/quote]

Mmmmm; odd that!

Its a tried and tested method whcih works for more than it doesn't but, more to the point, ITS NOT THAT HARD. It is often dull and tedious, but its not hard.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='581228' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:07 PM']It is often dull and tedious[/quote]


Yeah, that's where we struggle. After a dull and tedious day at work, it's difficult to find the motivation to pursue a dull and tedious hobby.

It's ok for you Bilbo, in your cushy gravy-train riding public sector job, its all champagne lunches and snorting cocaine out of chorus girls arseholes. You get all the excitement you need during working hours thanks to your huge expense account and running tab with "Madamme JoJo's Happy Endings Massage Parlour". Us grafters have to settle with a pot noodle and a w***.

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='581232' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:12 PM']Yeah, that's where we struggle. After a dull and tedious day at work, it's difficult to find the motivation to pursue a dull and tedious hobby.

It's ok for you Bilbo, in your cushy gravy-train riding public sector job, its all champagne lunches and snorting cocaine out of chorus girls arseholes. You get all the excitement you need during working hours thanks to your huge expense account and running tab with "Madamme JoJo's Happy Endings Massage Parlour". Us grafters have to settle with a pot noodle and a w***.[/quote]

I dont know whats more worrying BBC me old mucker, the fact that you find theory tedious, or that you have resorted to getting off over your pot noodles.........

[51m0n]

[quote name='Wil' post='581105' date='Aug 26 2009, 10:43 AM']I have absolutely no desire to learn to read dots on a page.

However!

I was attempting to solo over Jeff Beck's "Cause we ended as lovers" last night and I couldn't help but wish I had a greater understanding of how the chord changes progressed, and how this affected what notes to use. Alas, I'm sure the only way to develop this understanding is learning dratted theory.[/quote]

Its worse than that though, you can learn the theory in a purely abstract way until the cows come home, you [b]still[/b] wont be able to play over the changes until you've spent years mastering applying that theory too....

Thats it, I've had it with this muso stuff, I'm going to start a Jam tribute band instead, or maybe Oasis (actually no I draw the line there), join BBC at his much easier game and stop worrying about the fact that I struggle with anything with more than 4 chords in it from now on

[Wil]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='581228' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:07 PM']Mmmmm; odd that!

Its a tried and tested method whcih works for more than it doesn't but, more to the point, ITS NOT THAT HARD. It is often dull and tedious, but its not hard.[/quote]


But it is, it makes my brain hurt! I taught myself to sight read a cello piece once and my eyes nearly fell out.

Mind you, all my guitar playing is based around a map of certain scales in my head and their fingerboard positions and ear for relative pitch and intervals, so I've probably learned to play in a way that hinders rather than helps. It can't be a good thing that half of my approach to playing is a visual "map" of the fingerboard. Bad habits die hard and all that.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Wil

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='581232' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:12 PM']Yeah, that's where we struggle. After a dull and tedious day at work, it's difficult to find the motivation to pursue a dull and tedious hobby.[/quote]

We're currently revamping our band because it's just getting too complicated musically - my brain is certainly so worn out from everything during the day that I just want to rock out on bass and not worry about singing lead at the same time as playing syncopated basslines with the odd time signature weirdness thrown in. Tonight I am digging out the fuzz and stepping away from the mic (not that I could sing right now after a failed attempt at flight on Sunday ended on my face...) Anyone know any singists that they'd like us to take off their hands?

However, even if you're allergic to theory, I do think basic chords and their constituent arpeggios are worth the antihistamines.

Alex

[chris_b]

[quote name='Wil' post='581238' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:18 PM']....But it is, it makes my brain hurt! I taught myself to sight read a cello piece once and my eyes nearly fell out....[/quote]
Do it again and your brain will hurt a little bit less.

[51m0n]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='581248' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:27 PM']We're currently revamping our band because it's just getting too complicated musically - my brain is certainly so worn out from everything during the day that I just want to rock out on bass and not worry about singing lead at the same time as playing syncopated basslines with the odd time signature weirdness thrown in. Tonight I am digging out the fuzz and stepping away from the mic (not that I could sing right now after a failed attempt at flight on Sunday ended on my face...) Anyone know any singists that they'd like us to take off their hands?

However, even if you're allergic to theory, I do think basic chords and their constituent arpeggios are worth the antihistamines.

Alex[/quote]

Tell you what, you sing, and I'll do the bassy bits for you

[alexclaber]

[quote name='51m0n' post='581260' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:33 PM']Tell you what, you sing, and I'll do the bassy bits for you [/quote]

It would be a lot easier to find a bassist than a singer, especially as we're quite musically like-minded! However, I've just concluded that I don't want to be the frontman/singer because I don't have that presence or that tone. I'm best just on the edge of the action being an in your face bassist / backing vocalist / musical director. Plus if I'm no longer stage centre I'll be a lot happier shilling the band and getting gigs. Be nice to have a more active co-writer too.

You'd think it wouldn't be that hard to find a singer/co-leader for a good* band would you, but where do we start?!

Alex

* Honestly, we are, especially minus my vocals (less is more...)

[JPS]

A few weeks ago I did the only gig I've ever done where I had to read. It was a favour to a friend of mine who is a vicar. I didn't know any of the songs (they were all worship songs) and I was playing with a choir and a horn section for the first time. It was hard work, the songs weren't exactly my cup of tea, but I really enjoyed the challenge of having to read. Most of the parts were quite simple, but the MD wrote out some specific bass parts on a couple of songs that were a bit trickier.

Really made me wish that I was a more confident reader and that I had the reading ability to do more gigs in this way. Needless to say I haven't done a single piece of reading since and have gone back to relying on chord charts, memory and ear.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='JPS' post='581273' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:42 PM']It was a favour to a friend of mine who is a vicar.[/quote]


You gotta be careful with Vicars who ask for favours.

[bythesea]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='581248' date='Aug 26 2009, 12:27 PM']Tonight I am digging out the fuzz and stepping away from the mic (not that I could sing right now after [b]a failed attempt at flight on Sunday ended on my face...[/b]) Anyone know any singists that they'd like us to take off their hands?[/quote]
at Worthing?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bythesea' post='581335' date='Aug 26 2009, 01:17 PM'] at Worthing?[/quote]

No, though I think the sea would have been softer! Was enjoying my new bike's jumping skill (which far exceeds my own, apparently).

Alex

[OutToPlayJazz]

I started off as a classical player (cellist/double bass player/pianist) which I still am. When I started to play electric bass in my teens I found I had to develop my ear first, and then went along to blues jams to learn to improvise and pick up song patterns.

So I can now sight read anything, busk for jazz gigs and improvise as well. Best of all worlds.

On the technical front, being able to read music is a real boon, as you can play so much stuff without having to memorize. Just read it straight off the sheet. It's so much easier. Yes, of course the brain picks up the patterns anyway after you've played it a few times, but reading is so much easier at the end of the day. This leads to another problem with tablature - It's all very well them showing you one way of playing it, but it doesn't show you what fingerings to use or the most economical or effective way of playing a passage.

Learn to read. It makes life so much easier.

Rich.

[Wil]

What's the best approach to learn to effectively improvise over changes without learning to read? Is there a cheaty, sneaky way?

I mean, is it best to learn all the scales in C# minor across the neck, commit them to memory as C# minor scales, and draw on that when the key happens to be... er, C# minor? Is it that simple?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Wil

[bythesea]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='581347' date='Aug 26 2009, 01:25 PM']No, though I think the sea would have been softer! Was enjoying my new bike's jumping skill (which far exceeds my own, apparently).

Alex[/quote]
Ouch! - Just had visions of you in a Barefaced cab with wings jumping off the pier!

[Doddy]

I've never understood why some people have no desire to learn to read. If you want to become the best you
can be on your instrument,then learning to read is the most effective way of improving. It improves your
knowledge of the fingerboard and allows you to study a wealth of material that is unavailable to a non reader.
From the moment I touched the Bass,I learned to associate the stave with the fingerboard-which to me seems
like a logical approach. I now have students who can read to a basic level after only a few lessons by
teaching this method of stave/board recognition.