Reading Music

[Wil]

Yeah, but that takes [i]ages[/i]. Time I'd rather spend time on my xbox.

I'm all for learning theory, but reading is one of those things that just seems to suck up time like a sponge, and if you don't keep at it constantly from what I've heard and my own (limited) experience it just pops out of your head?

I certainly don't want to be the greatest I can be on guitar if it means I have to cut back on the other things I enjoy doing. I do want to improve to an extent, though, so a bit of theory is bound to help there. But what is there that can benefit besides plugging hours into learning to read?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Wil

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Wil' post='581499' date='Aug 26 2009, 03:34 PM']Yeah, but that takes [i]ages[/i]. Time I'd rather spend time on my xbox.[/quote]

Then you will always be a lightweight. Your funeral.

[Wil]

That's fine with me though! I only pick the thing up about twice a week, so I'm hardly planning to the be the next Paul Gilbert.

This is what's put me and a lot of people off theory entirely in the past - the all or nothing attitude. I don't want it all, I just want a bit. For me music is a hobby, not a way of life.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='581507' date='Aug 26 2009, 03:39 PM']Then you will always be a lightweight. Your funeral.[/quote]

Oh dear, he we go again with the 'you cant be a great player if you dont read' argument.

Close the thread right now and save everyone the time and effort......

[Marvin]

Most of us don't know how to read music because it takes too long. Especially when your crappy job, diy, kids and all those other responsibilities get in the way. Like many others, and as Wii wrote, for me music is a hobby. In my case I don't want to feel I have to learn to read music because that becomes a chore. And then there is the simple case that many of us don't need to read music, personally I'd rather learn more theory.
Then there's also the fact that some of the much heralded players can't read music either. Are we going to tell Sir Paul Macartney and Mark King they are lightweights because they can't read music? Dare you!

[quote]Oh dear, he we go again with the 'you cant be a great player if you dont read' argument.

Close the thread right now and save everyone the time and effort......[/quote]

+1

Edited August 26, 2009 by RichB

[Pete Academy]

I'm reckon I'm a competent enough player with a good ear. Being unable to read hasn't affected my playing career very much, but I admit I have lost jobs by not being able to do so...jazz gigs, etc. Also, I did some teaching in the past and while I could show someone technique and cover tunes, whenever I was asked a theory-based question, I was stumped. I thought it was unfair to the pupil to carry on.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='51m0n' post='581522' date='Aug 26 2009, 03:52 PM']Oh dear, he we go again with the 'you cant be a great player if you dont read' argument.

Close the thread right now and save everyone the time and effort......[/quote]

I think I was referring to the 'I'd rather be playing with my xbox' comment as much as the not reading one. You can be great without reading. Obviously. I just reckon you could be greater if you did and that you would get there quicker.

Is McCartney great? He's popular but are they the same thing? Is Jilly Cooper a great author? Is Pam Ayres a great poet? Discuss.

PS - if anyone here is considering taking me seriously, please don't.

[Wil]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='581507' date='Aug 26 2009, 03:39 PM']Then you will always be a lightweight. Your funeral.[/quote]

I should also add, you'll [i]never[/i] beat my high scores with that attitude

I totally see where you are coming from, by the way, I'm just interested to see if there are other, more intuitive ways to understand the language of music and theory besides the classical method.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Wil

[51m0n]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='581534' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:03 PM']I think I was referring to the 'I'd rather be playing with my xbox' comment as much as the not reading one. You can be great without reading. Obviously. I just reckon you could be greater if you did and that you would get there quicker.

Is McCartney great? He's popular but are they the same thing? Is Jilly Cooper a great author? Is Pam Ayres a great poet? Discuss.

[b]PS - if anyone here is considering taking me seriously, please don't.[/b][/quote]

Errr did any of us ever give the impression that we took a man dangling carrots seriously, ever???

[alexclaber]

I would like to point out that you can have a good grasp of theory but not be able to read standard notation!

Alex

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Wil' post='581535' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:04 PM']I should also add, you'll [i]never[/i] beat my high scores with that attitude [/quote]

Damn them pesky kids!!

[51m0n]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='581538' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:06 PM']I would like to point out that you can have a good grasp of theory but not be able to read standard notation!

Alex[/quote]

Thought I already said that??

Now you're repeating me.

Maybe...

Or not?

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='581538' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:06 PM']I would like to point out that you can have a good grasp of theory but not be able to read standard notation![/quote]
How does that work, then? I'm genuinely interested, cos I've been able to read notation since I was 6, so anything else is pretty alien to me.

[Wil]

[quote name='51m0n' post='581545' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:10 PM']Thought I already said that??

Now you're repeating me.

Maybe...

Or not?[/quote]

See, I told you theory was confusing!

[51m0n]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='581547' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:12 PM']How does that work, then? I'm genuinely interested, cos I've been able to read notation since I was 6, so anything else is pretty alien to me.[/quote]

Its all thoroughly mathematical though, you just learn the intervalic pattern of different scales (tone, tone, half tone, tone, tone, tone, half tone, being major).

The expand your knowledge by getting a really good grasp of the scalar intervals that make up different types of chord (minor third, major third, minor third stacked for a minor 7th say )

Then learning all the diatonic harmony from there. (I ii iii IV V vi viio etc)

Then you can easily go down the modal theory route by use of intervals, even easier since you are oconstantly comaring to major or minor scales (Dorian is minor witha major 6th for instance, lydian is major with an augmented 4th)

You can cover all sorts of theory without naming a single note in effect.

Thats how I got through college without even realising it. Applying it to bass is easy since the tuning is in stright fourths.

[bassace]

Surely the ideal is eyes and ears. What the relative percentages are depends:- eyes/ears 40/60 perhaps but it won't be the same for all. Due to my short attention span I've always had a bit of difficulty with the dots but have persvered. It helps if you're in a reading band, such as a rehearsal big band, where the reading will come on leaps and bounds. Looking back over my career I suppose my ear compensates for the shortcomings in my reading, also there are not many arrangers IMO who can write good walking lines so my preference is for chords and dots only when importrant phrases are needed. My ears and eyes have taken me through, at the last count, more than sixty bands as a permanent member or freelance. In so doing I have discovered lots of great tunes that I could not do justice to if I couldn't read a bit.

Writing this, I'm reminded of a big band I played with in the sixties. We were blowing through a Buddy Rich chart for the first time. The time sig was 'Orgasmo Furioso'. When I enquired I was told it meant 'Go Like F**k'.

[Marvin]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='581534' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:03 PM']Is McCartney great? He's popular but are they the same thing? Is Jilly Cooper a great author? Is Pam Ayres a great poet? Discuss.

PS - if anyone here is considering taking me seriously, please don't.[/quote]


McCartney great? Don't know, I said he was much heralded by some Jilly Cooper writes that's all I'll say on that. And my mum likes Pam Ayres so I'll leave that one alone as well.
All I can say is that I like the carrots.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='581547' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:12 PM']How does that work, then? I'm genuinely interested, cos I've been able to read notation since I was 6, so anything else is pretty alien to me.[/quote]

Music theory has moved from beign a way of explaining the sounds that are made to becoming a set of instructions on how to make the sounds. Using music theory to develop compositions could be seen as derivative. In reality it works both ways. The road from total tehnical musical knowledge to total intuitive technical ignorance is a continuum not two absolutes. Same with total reader (can't play without a score) and total improviser (free player) - most people are a bit of both.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='51m0n' post='581563' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:19 PM']Its all thoroughly mathematical though, you just learn the intervalic pattern of different scales (tone, tone, half tone, tone, tone, tone, half tone, being major).

The expand your knowledge by getting a really good grasp of the scalar intervals that make up different types of chord (minor third, major third, minor third stacked for a minor 7th say )

Then learning all the diatonic harmony from there. (I ii iii IV V vi viio etc)

Then you can easily go down the modal theory route by use of intervals, even easier since you are oconstantly comaring to major or minor scales (Dorian is minor witha major 6th for instance, lydian is major with an augmented 4th)

You can cover all sorts of theory without naming a single note in effect.

Thats how I got through college without even realising it. Applying it to bass is easy since the tuning is in stright fourths.[/quote]
Ah, gotcha. I mean, it wouldn't work for me, because (to use an already over-used cliché) I speak a different language musically. It's like the way that English poetry works better for me than German poetry. It's not that German poetry's rubbish -- I just don't know very much German.

The other problem is that years of singing and playing violin have left me with perfect pitch (or near as dammit, anyway). If I hear a note, I immediately hear it as a C#, or F or whatever. I don't think in intervals -- I think in notes, and I know the intervals between them.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='581547' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:12 PM']How does that work, then? I'm genuinely interested, cos I've been able to read notation since I was 6, so anything else is pretty alien to me.[/quote]

I just see the notes and intervals as they're laid out on a fretboard as opposed to on a stave. So say C7no5 to me and my fingers go straight to it. I find this very handy for remembering new songs I'm working on as I'll have little reminders like a certain chord change or a certain rhythm, just in case my brain forgets the intricacies of a new riff/groove/thang. I pretty much write everything on bass (or classical guitar) with the odd moment on piano, so that way of turning semitone relationships into a visual image works well for me (probably too well, that's why I don't get round to learning to read standard notation at speed). It does mean that I don't like non-standard tunings though!

Alex

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='581585' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:34 PM']The other problem is that years of singing and playing violin have left me with perfect pitch (or near as dammit, anyway). If I hear a note, I immediately hear it as a C#, or F or whatever. I don't think in intervals -- I think in notes, and I know the intervals between them.[/quote]



Similar story with me actually.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='581585' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:34 PM']The other problem is that years of singing and playing violin have left me with perfect pitch (or near as dammit, anyway). If I hear a note, I immediately hear it as a C#, or F or whatever. I don't think in intervals -- I think in notes, and I know the intervals between them.[/quote]

Right. I'm much more of a relative pitch person, than absolute pitch. Though funnily enough, most people have very good absolute pitch, usually singing songs they've heard on the radio in the correct key, etc.

Note naming convention does rather bug me because so much of what I write isn't diatonic so there would be sharps and flats everywhere - at least just naming the tonic and then describing the chord avoids quite a bit of that.

Alex

[lowdown]

[quote name='51m0n' post='581545' date='Aug 26 2009, 04:10 PM']Thought I already said that??

Now you're repeating me.

Maybe...

Or not?[/quote]

Steady, That could be considered a....
D.S. al Coda...

Or a bit like these Sight reading topics....
DS and where the F**ks the Coda!

Amusing reading, please dont lock the post.

Garry

[BottomEndian]

Oh, and the other weird thing I do when I hear stuff or come up with a bassline is to immediately visualise how it would be played on a piano (or, even more bizarrely, the euphonium... don't ask), and then transfer [b]that[/b] to the fretboard. I'm working on eliminating that intermediate stage at the moment, so I can musically react more quickly.

In fact, sometimes my process even goes: hearing -> visualise staff notation -> visualise playing on piano -> play the damn bass. Definitely work needed. I mean, it's a split-second thing, but it still slows me down.

Edited August 26, 2009 by BottomEndian

[xilddx]

I can walk with one shoe on, but I can't run very fast.