Personal headphone monitor 'tap'

[mcgraham]

Hey all

Basically, have had this idea rattling round in my head for a while. I'd like a device that allows me to tap into a pre-existing monitor mix and mix my own headphone mix of monitor with bass signal, whilst also passing the bass and monitor signal back out to respective pre-existing setups. This is what I've come up with:

[i][u]Input/Outputs[/u][/i]
- Input 1 (for bass - straight from bass)
- Input 2 (for monitor feed - straight from desk)
- Output 1 (for headphones - blend of the two inputs)
- Output 2 (for bass out only - direct to amp/DI setup)
- Output 3 (for monitor out only - back to monitor setup)

[i][u]Controls:[/u][/i]
- Volume 1 (for headphones - controls overall level of headphone amp)
- Volume a (controls level of bass signal to headphone amp)
- Volume b (controls level of monitor signal to headphone amp)

[u][i]Other options:[/i][/u]
- Volume 2 (for bass out - allows me to control bass out signal level to amp)
- Volume 3 (for monitor out - allows me to control monitor out signal level)

The idea is to have it sitting on my music stand and allow me to create my own monitor mix in any pre-existing sound setup.

Would anyone be interested in doing this as a project? Or recommend someone who could?

Mark

Edited August 24, 2009 by mcgraham

[BOD2]

You could already do this with a suitable off-the-shelf mixer, that has 2 "AUX" outputs on it.

Bass -> channel 1 of mixer
Monitor mix -> channel 2 of mixer

Setup "Main mix" of bass/monitor mix and this will appear at the headphone socket with an independent volume control.

Setup AUX1 so that only channel 1 (bass) is input, then this signal will appear at the AUX1 output with an independent volume control.

Setup AUX2 so that only channel 2 (monitor mix) is input, then this will appear at the AUX2 output with independent volume control.

Possible problems - the AUX1 signal might be too "hot" to input into a bass amp. The solution would be either to use a DI box and spilt the bass signal before the amp/mixer or to feed the mixer from the "DI out" or "FX send" on the amp. This might actually be preferrable as it minimise interference with the bass signal going into your amp.

What you need is a mixer with two "AUX" channels. This one would do it, but there will be others too.

[url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/1204.aspx"]http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/1204.aspx[/url]

[mcgraham]

Thanks for the info BOD2.

I tried doing this with a mixer, a preamp and a DI out on my Berg, and it worked (somewhat). But I'd prefer a small compact box solution, something I can sling in my gig bag. I also see it being useful as a home practice tool as I could use it just as a headphone amp, also for mixing in a second signal (ipod or the like). If it could be made with an adaptor and battery option then it'd be fairly flexible too.

I'm not a hardcore electronics person so I have no idea if this is too complicated to make as a project, but it seems that there'd only be a few small headphone amps to connect to a power source and two attenuators to control the individual levels to the headphone out.

Mark

[dannybuoy]

I do this with 2 devices; a Radial JDI (any DI box will do) and a [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MA400.aspx"]Behringer Micromon[/url].



Bass goes into the DI, which also has the pass through to the amp - alternatively you can use the DI output of your amp. The XLR output on the DI then goes to the mic input on the Micromon, which has a thru socket for sending the bass to the main FOH mixer if desired. You can send the monitor mix (or iPod) to the line in on the Micromon, it has no thru socket but if you need to send the monitor/iPod to another source you could easily use a simple splitter adaptor like this (since a thru socket would likely just be wired up directly to the input it achieves the exact same thing):



The cheapo mixer option would work, but be warned, a passive bass won't sound great plugged straight into a low impedance mixer input, you're best off with a DI box going to the mixer!

You could also check out the [url="http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351"]Rolls PM351[/url]:



Although it's larger and way more expensive then the Behringer. The Behringer sounds good, has low noise and is really tiny (smaller than it looks on-screen).

Edited August 21, 2009 by dannybuoy

[BOD2]

[quote name='dannybuoy' post='576771' date='Aug 21 2009, 03:25 PM']..... it has no thru socket but if you need to send the monitor/iPod to another source you could easily use a simple splitter adaptor like this (since a thru socket would likely just be wired up directly to the input it achieves the exact same thing):[/quote]

That looks good.

Depending on your monitor system, you might be able to take a "link output" from one of the floor monitors rather than fitting this device between the monitor mixer and monitor itself. That way you wouldn't need a "monitor output" on the box.

[mcgraham]

I've seen that micromon before. That setup didn't quite occur to me at the time though. Thanks for the help! I'll need to check the monitor system we have though. A link output would certainly be useful.

One of the reasons I was keen on my original setup was so that no matter what sound system I'm using I can 'leech' off the existing monitor system.

Mark

[mcgraham]

Bump. Still looking for anyone that could do this or direct me to someone who could?

Mark

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='578872' date='Aug 24 2009, 11:03 AM']Bump. Still looking for anyone that could do this or direct me to someone who could?

Mark[/quote]

Sorry Mark I just read the post. It is not super-complicated. In a way it is a mix of a few [sfx] devices.

If you send me an mail I'll be happy to have chat with you about it.

[mcgraham]

Thanks Max, I've just emailed you

Mark

[SteveO]

[quote name='dannybuoy' post='576771' date='Aug 21 2009, 04:25 PM']I do this with 2 devices; a Radial JDI (any DI box will do) and a [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MA400.aspx"]Behringer Micromon[/url].

[/quote]

+1 for the micromon, I use it with my trombone. With a foh feed from the desk and DI from the bone-mic (which runs though to the desk) I can set my perfect mix in no time. Cheap as chips too. (It's about the size of a tub of philledelphia and sits unobtrusively on my music stand)

It sounds just what you're asking for, apart from the lack of the 'output 3' on your wishlist. I'm not too sure if you meant Output 3 should be the monitor signal from the desk plus your mixed bass sound (i.e. the same signal as is going to the headphones) or if you meant it should just be the monitor signal from the desk running straight back out again, in which case it's surely be easier to take this from the desk too. Either way, a splitter as suggested by dannybouy would work for both.

[mcgraham]

The problem is with a splitter is that there's likely to be some signal loss unless it's being driven in some way, at least that would be understanding.

I really want this to be something that is 'just' what I want, and not some compromised approximation. I play in a lot of places where monitoring situations aren't ideal, and where I cannot have my own mix, or I cannot even guarantee a line out for a box such as the micromon. Something that can sit between the desk and an existing monitor without 'damaging' an existing setup is what I'm after.

[SteveO]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='579238' date='Aug 24 2009, 05:32 PM']The problem is with a splitter is that there's likely to be some signal loss unless it's being driven in some way, at least that would be understanding.

I really want this to be something that is 'just' what I want, and not some compromised approximation. I play in a lot of places where monitoring situations aren't ideal, and where I cannot have my own mix, or I cannot even guarantee a line out for a box such as the micromon. Something that can sit between the desk and an existing monitor without 'damaging' an existing setup is what I'm after.[/quote]

Ah, right I get it. If I can't get a monitor line then I just have the bone coming through the earphone so I can hear the monitors as usual and I can set my own level just for me. Still, I see where you're comming from in not wanting to compromise.

Just a thought, but if you are wanting to intercept the feed to the monitors then you're gonna need something that can handle a line-level signal to an active monitor and also handle a hot signal to a passive monitor - I'm assuming you want to use it with any House PA as you say that you can't guarantee a dedicated signal, and obviously the house PA could have either passive or active monitors.

Edited to make sense

Edited August 24, 2009 by SteveO

[mcgraham]

Thanks for your input Steve Some valid points there.

TBH, I've not actually encountered a limited passive monitor setup with power cables running from amps at the desk to the monitors on stage. Most setups I've encountered are active monitors, or passive monitors that have power amps on/off stage. In either case, I can/could still intercept the feed on stage.

I've actually been in discussions with Silent Fly @ SFX Sound, and we've come up with a set of specs. He'll be giving me a quote shortly. I'm really excited. What we've come up with could replace a host of other devices that I currently use, whilst still satisfying the design brief we set out initially. Hopefully the outlay won't be too bad, as I would love to have this badboy

Mark

[mcgraham]

Well, I've been in discussions with Silent Fly at SFX Sound, and he's started work on designing this project. It's been developed a bit more to become a preamp/monitor device. I'll keep people posted on it.

By the way, big thumbs up for SFX sound! If you guys have any custom sound ideas that you are interested in perhaps making a reality, drop him a line! Fast response, knowledgable, professional, and a host of other complimentary superlatives!

Mark

[drae]

In case anyone else comes across this thread and wants to know what's on the market Art and Samson bith do similar products, each having slightly different specs. I use one of the Samson's in two different situations, one to tap bass and mix with monitors and similarly to tap my vocal and mix with monitor mix. No problems with either set up.

Good luck with your custom build!

[mcgraham]

Thanks very much!

I saw the Shure PSM400 which was a 4 channel pass through with headphone/personal monitor mix out. However it was way too expensive for my needs. The one I've opted for is totally custom, but brings together a number of other features in a verrry cool little box. Really a do-it-all wonder. It offers a high quality preamp, headphone out, aux/monitor in option, throughput for two channels to an existing sound setup (e.g. existing amp/preamp or monitor setup), as well as a high quality DI with separate DI volume.

Mark

[Doddy]

I've been using the Rolls PM351 for my in-ears for a couple of years. I put my mic through one channel,and
an overall monitor mix from the desk in another. There is a third channel to put your instrument through too,but I
don't use it-I mix my bass in from the desk.
Make sure you use good ear phones though...they make all the difference.

[Orphius]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='576718' date='Aug 21 2009, 02:45 PM']Hey all

Basically, have had this idea rattling round in my head for a while. I'd like a device that allows me to tap into a pre-existing monitor mix and mix my own headphone mix of monitor with bass signal, whilst also passing the bass and monitor signal back out to respective pre-existing setups. This is what I've come up with:

[i][u]Input/Outputs[/u][/i]
- Input 1 (for bass - straight from bass)
- Input 2 (for monitor feed - straight from desk)
- Output 1 (for headphones - blend of the two inputs)
- Output 2 (for bass out only - direct to amp/DI setup)
- Output 3 (for monitor out only - back to monitor setup)

[i][u]Controls:[/u][/i]
- Volume 1 (for headphones - controls overall level of headphone amp)
- Volume a (controls level of bass signal to headphone amp)
- Volume b (controls level of monitor signal to headphone amp)

[u][i]Other options:[/i][/u]
- Volume 2 (for bass out - allows me to control bass out signal level to amp)
- Volume 3 (for monitor out - allows me to control monitor out signal level)

The idea is to have it sitting on my music stand and allow me to create my own monitor mix in any pre-existing sound setup.

Would anyone be interested in doing this as a project? Or recommend someone who could?

Mark[/quote]


Hi Mark,

I used to work for a company that distributes a product called-
Hear Technologies Hear Back System

[url="http://www.scvlondon.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=21&products_id=732"]http://www.scvlondon.co.uk/catalog/product...products_id=732[/url]

It might be a little over kill for what you need but then again its the only product I know of at this price that will feed each musician an 8 track monitor mix into a personal monitor mixer that they can control the volume independantly per track per musician.

It works over Cat5 cable so needs no power and mounts on a mic stand.

Whilst I was there we sold quite a few as its a lot less expensive than the pro rival. It has also been used for live work thus not needing a motitor engineer side of stage.

I'm not getting a kick back on this- I no longer work for the company but I like this site and hope to get lots of advice on bass playing so I'll help on studio/live tech questions where I can!!!

Regards

Rich

[mcgraham]

Thanks for the reply Orphius! That looks very nifty!

Whilst there are some products on the market that could do what I wanted, they were either overkill (as in this case), or too expensive, or they needed additional bits to make it work.

Anyway! The device is in the works. I'll keep you all informed as to its progress.

Mark

[drae]

[quote name='Doddy' post='592858' date='Sep 8 2009, 01:13 PM']Make sure you use good ear phones though...they make all the difference.[/quote]

That's the bit I've been struggling with. Ideally I could get a personal monitor mix in ear and thus have decent isolation earphones. Unfortunately I don't have that so been putting only one ear in and leaving other open so I can hear drums (they aren't miced) and onstage monitors. Problem is that I find it hard to concentrate on sound just in one ear, especially if it's my vocal and I'm trying to sing in tune!

What I've been trying to find is earphones that only give (or can be changed to) reduce external noise by 10 or 20db rather than the 35db+ that is normal for isolation earphones. Anyone have any experience with this set up?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='drae' post='593109' date='Sep 8 2009, 05:49 PM']What I've been trying to find is earphones that only give (or can be changed to) reduce external noise by 10 or 20db rather than the 35db+ that is normal for isolation earphones. Anyone have any experience with this set up?[/quote]

Yes, but it ain't cheap!

I use ER15 filtered plugs, which provide a flat-EQ reduction of 15dB. They usually cost about £160 but they are indeed [i]les coulis du chien[/i].

So much so that I have a second pair, containing the Sennheiser earphone inserts. These provide about a 20dB reduction in external sound while also supplying very high-quality reproduction of whatever you've plugged into them. Ker-ching! That'll be another £160 ON TOP OF the £160 for the plugs.

It wouldn't occur to me to try to explain to, say, my wife why I now carry around approx. £500 worth of earplugs/phones. Life's too short. But my ears don't ring after gigs and I can hear myself play and sing.

[drae]

Ah, are you talking about the custom molded ear protectors? I've always wondered how good they are and whether they do as writ. Do you find they work very well? Can you still hear onstage monitors ok?

Anyone know of a cheaper solution?

[ped]

TBH having tried custom moulds and more expensive models I have always gone back to Shure E2Cs with foam inserts. They give a sound that is identical to my bass through the desk so I know what I hear is what is going to record and live they reduce the sound of the surrounding band just the right amount - I can still hear them clearly but it feels like CD volume, and I can set my in ear bass level to match. Works great for me!

Cheers
ped

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='drae' post='593539' date='Sep 9 2009, 07:28 AM']Ah, are you talking about the custom molded ear protectors? I've always wondered how good they are and whether they do as writ. Do you find they work very well? Can you still hear onstage monitors ok?[/quote]

They work brilliantly, but NO - you can't hear on-stage monitors. The idea in my set-up is not to need on-stage monitoring at all. My right ear (the one nearest the drummer) feeds me my bass and my vocals, my left ear is "open" for me to listen to the rest of the band.

If we were a big enough band, or playing big enough venues, that we had everything going through the PA, then I'd probably want my left ear to feed me the main mix.

[drae]

Thanks for the opinions. I've got some E2c's too and while I love their sound I find the foam inserts block out just about everything. Really have to concentrate walking down the road with them in!

I saw some Comply tips that were supposed to be slightly less isolating, but couldn't find any to fit e2c's. I'll keep looking!