nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Well, long story...kept brief. Was happily gigging a Markbass Mini121p combo, supported by a MB Std 102HF Cab. Driven by my BDDI. All good. But then decided that I never use the combo alone any more, so decided to flog it, and go down the pre-power route. I then made the decision to get a Standard 104HF cab (8 ohm) on here - great cab. And I sold the Std 102HF cab to fund it. (And then also bought a new acoustic guitar, which has not helped funds, lol). So, you would think that I would now be happy with my BDDI driving a QSCRMX2450 bridged into my 8 ohm cab. But I am not - it is very heavy, and I want to go back to a dedicated head. Trouble is, I am possibly a bit snookered by having just the one 8 ohm cab, as I need the full 500w from the Markbass heads (which I am going to stick to I think), so that means getting a head (I can afford this) and another cab (for which I have no money). So, bugger. What do I do? Part-ex my SR5 to help (see sep thread). Buy Doods F1 - (I want it, just worried that I need a 4 ohm load to get the 500w). So I reckon I am a bit stuck unless someone wants to swap my Standard 104HF 8 ohm, for a 4 ohm one, or 2 8 ohm cabs. OR Buy it from me. BUGGER! Thanks for listening. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Why do you "need" the full 500W from the Markbass heads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='Merton' post='577085' date='Aug 21 2009, 08:20 PM']Why do you "need" the full 500W from the Markbass heads?[/quote] Sometimes its nice to get the full power from the head into one cab....depends on space/needs I guess. I have some 8 ohm cabs and 1 4x10 Berg 4 ohm cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 I have hit the limiter on my old LM2 at 300w - where it wont go any louder, so just would prefer the full 500w headroom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberthot Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I'm selling my 800w 4ohm Schroeder 1212L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='Musicman20' post='577129' date='Aug 21 2009, 09:21 PM']Sometimes its nice to get the full power from the head into one cab....depends on space/needs I guess. I have some 8 ohm cabs and 1 4x10 Berg 4 ohm cab.[/quote] [quote name='nottswarwick' post='577145' date='Aug 21 2009, 09:57 PM']I have hit the limiter on my old LM2 at 300w - where it wont go any louder, so just would prefer the full 500w headroom[/quote] In both instances, a more sensitive cab would help. That said, I don't know the specs of the Markbass cabs so forgive me if I'm talking sh*te and generally not helping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 yep, that woudl do it, and that is why I need to shift stuff around. A right annoyance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Sell everything, get the F1 and a Big One Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 actually that is funnily enough one of my thoughts. If you will excuse the question, have you got a big one? (oh dear..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 The Bergantino HS cabs are very highly sensitive, hence the name. If you wanted a 4x10, 4 ohm, that matches a LM2, the Berg HS410 is incredible. I didnt believe how good it was til I tried one and bought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Just a thought, but I'm not really sure that 500W into a 2x10 is any louder than 330W (or thereabouts) into a 4x10. If you half the wattage you'll get a 3db drop in volume, but if you double the number of woofers you'll get a 3db increase in volume. So overall volume should be about the same with that set up (assuming the markbass cabs have the same efficiency). I'd wait to see if you struggle with the volume using the 4x10 before worrying too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 musky - good advice, although I was hitting the limiter with an LM2 into TWO 2*10 cabs - I did not make that clear. I may well have no option (financially) but to get the F1, and see how it is into my one 4*10 cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='577171' date='Aug 21 2009, 10:41 PM']although I was hitting the limiter with an LM2 into TWO 2*10 cabs - I did not make that clear. I may well have no option (financially) but to get the F1, and see how it is into my one 4*10 cab.[/quote] Was that the LMII into two 8 ohm MB 2x10"s? If so then I think you might have real problems then with the F1 into an 8 ohm 4x10". That does seem pretty loud though - are you boosting the lows much, as that's always the big eater of power? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) Hi Alex - yes, it was. I actually found it on only a couple of gigs, where for some reason I was struggling. This was with a large fucntion band, with a huge PA, loud monitoring, monster loud drummer - in fact, all way too loud on stage (we all know that quieter onstage sound = better FOH, but this does not always translate). I believe the LM 2 limiter is a bit aggressive, but there we go. The reason I am now not convinced with my BDDI into RMX2450 plan - I did a gig on Sunday, and although I was NOT bridging the amp on this one, I was still delivering 500w into the 8 ohm 4*10. And I found that as the gig went on I really had to push the amp - it started clipping, so I had to back down a little. I dont use excesive low end - my tone is from the BDDI, full, round, top end bite and slight distortion. One thing has struck me though just looking at your FAQ section. The cab was to the side of a low stage, but on 4 stools about a foot off the floor. This may in fact have been why I struggled, as it was off the floor, and also I was about a foot off its axis. I do like the MB cabs. I know some dont, but I find they deliver at the gig, even if they maybe are not too refined at home, if you know what I mean? Hmmm Edited August 21, 2009 by nottswarwick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestar Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='577145' date='Aug 21 2009, 09:57 PM']I have hit the limiter on my old LM2 at 300w - where it wont go any louder, so just would prefer the full 500w headroom[/quote] Jeez youmust be so loud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I must admit...your band must be very loud! How are you setting the input gain? And the Sansamp? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 you would think this. But no. I hate being loud on stage, but a couple of bands I do work for ARE loud. Ons has monster guitars, and the other a huge full sound - and frequencies get eaten up, so yes, 500w is MONSTER on its own, but sometimes I have found myself struggling. I wish it were not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 I do alot of dep work, where I cannot really have a say in what goes on. In my OWN band (I manage it and do the PA etc), it is a breeze, as I can control what is happening, but sometimes I need to turn up and have the power to be heard with minimal PA support to the back of large venues, with a loud band. I need to be able to do the job, so I get called back. Not ideal, but this is my job, so it needs to be right. Believe me, I know that loud on stage is not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='577176' date='Aug 21 2009, 10:55 PM']Hi Alex - yes, it was. I actually found it on only a couple of gigs, where for some reason I was struggling. This was with a large fucntion band, with a huge PA, loud monitoring, monster loud drummer - in fact, all way too loud on stage (we all know that quieter onstage sound = better FOH, but this does not always translate). I believe the LM 2 limiter is a bit aggressive, but there we go. The reason I am now not convinced with my BDDI into RMX2450 plan - I did a gig on Sunday, and although I was NOT bridging the amp on this one, I was still delivering 500w into the 8 ohm 4*10. And I found that as the gig went on I really had to push the amp - it started clipping, so I had to back down a little. I dont use excesive low end - my tone is from the BDDI, full, round, top end bite and slight distortion. One thing has struck me though just looking at your FAQ section. The cab was to the side of a low stage, but on 4 stools about a foot off the floor. This may in fact have been why I struggled, as it was off the floor, and also I was about a foot off its axis. I do like the MB cabs. I know some dont, but I find they deliver at the gig, even if they maybe are not too refined at home, if you know what I mean?[/quote] Well the cab wasn't far enough from the floor to cost you in boundary reinforcement. If 500W into the 4x10" wasn't enough then what bothers me is it suggests the 4x10" isn't enough - more power just isn't going to eke any more output. That really is proper loud. The BDDI is quite mid-scooped though, so maybe that's your problem? Not enough happening in the punch and cut region. When you say you were a foot off-axis, what angle where your ears at relative to the on-axis position? (measured from the horn tweeter in the middle) I suspect the real problem is the drummer having his monitors too loud, thus causing him to play louder, thus causing a vicious cycle of volume escalation. What did you have coming through the monitors? Rather than chopping and changing gear I'd be patient and experiment with what you already have. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 oh sansamp set with everything flat or at 12:00. I am not abusing it or doing anything daft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='577187' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:04 PM']I do alot of dep work, where I cannot really have a say in what goes on.[/quote] Ah, so experimentation is really not an option. Do you want to pick up where our emails left off?! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='577192' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:11 PM']Well the cab wasn't far enough from the floor to cost you in boundary reinforcement. If 500W into the 4x10" wasn't enough then what bothers me is it suggests the 4x10" isn't enough - more power just isn't going to eke any more output. That really is proper loud. The BDDI is quite mid-scooped though, so maybe that's your problem? Not enough happening in the punch and cut region. When you say you were a foot off-axis, what angle where your ears at relative to the on-axis position? (measured from the horn tweeter in the middle) I suspect the real problem is the drummer having his monitors too loud, thus causing him to play louder, thus causing a vicious cycle of volume escalation. What did you have coming through the monitors? Rather than chopping and changing gear I'd be patient and experiment with what you already have. Alex[/quote] I would seriously hope that one 4*10 would be enough for me. I am not in stadiums here lol. Re the mid scoop, this is indeed true. I am using a 50/50 blend setting, with quite a high setting on the presence knob - think bass sound like The Killers, or Town Called Malice, for the general idea for the band in question. Certainly cuts though. Angle wise, I was at 45 degrees above and to the side. I was just surprised that I made the QSC clip, at whcih point yes, it was loud enough. If I bridge it, I send 1200w into the 8 ohm cab, lol, sounds like a huge amount. And should be way more, way WAY more than is either necessary or indeed safe. Dunno, maybe I was not driving the amp hard enough with the sansamp level, but then I got the amp to clip, so surely I was? You may be right though, give it a few gigs. I suspect though that knowing me, I won't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='577193' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:12 PM']oh sansamp set with everything flat or at 12:00. I am not abusing it or doing anything daft[/quote] But isn't the default curve quite scooped, so flat actually isn't. Am wondering how much thermal power compression was getting you on the the gig. It's a weird and oft-forgetten thing that takes your 4 or 8 ohm cab and basically doubles or triples the impedance as you push it for prolonged periods at near full power. Something I plan to investigate more if I can design a test-rig that I can sneak into gigs without being taking out by men in white coats. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='577197' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:20 PM']But isn't the default curve quite scooped, so flat actually isn't. Am wondering how much thermal power compression was getting you on the the gig. It's a weird and oft-forgetten thing that takes your 4 or 8 ohm cab and basically doubles or triples the impedance as you push it for prolonged periods at near full power. Something I plan to investigate more if I can design a test-rig that I can sneak into gigs without being taking out by men in white coats. Alex[/quote] fair comment re the sansamp. Using a Stingray though, plenty middy on a 50/50 blend? I first noticed the problem after the break, all had been fine in set one. Then set 2 opens, and it is meant to be me, playing a big fat C chord to approximate the fog horn at the start of Night Boat to Cairo (Madness). Great in sounds check, deafening in fact. Hit in in the set, really weak. Quick panic, turn the power amp up and carry on, but the bollocks seems to have been lifted out during the interval. It is like cars - well, I now drive a transit - but in the past I have liked power as "headroom" - you might need it one day. If I cannot deliver on a gig, I may be screwed. I am just firing up our emails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protium Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='577197' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:20 PM']But isn't the default curve quite scooped, so flat actually isn't.[/quote] A massive scoop at about 800Hz IIRC. I found it had very clear hifi sound solo'd but was completely lost in a band setting and definitely seemed to reduce the overall volume... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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