I am potentially making a pigs ear of my set up

[nottswarwick]

It can, but I have used one for ages, which is why I was surprised, and why I only used a 50% blend. YOu might be onto something though, sound is a funny thing.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='577195' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:20 PM']I would seriously hope that one 4*10 would be enough for me. I am not in stadiums here lol. Re the mid scoop, this is indeed true. I am using a 50/50 blend setting, with quite a high setting on the presence knob - think bass sound like The Killers, or Town Called Malice, for the general idea for the band in question. Certainly cuts though.[/quote]

The bass sound on that first Killers album, and every TV broadcast I heard from that era, is one of the best bass sounds I've ever heard. So anything like that should growl through beautifully, as long as your guitarist isn't masking that region - if you are depping with noisy guitarists I'd be prepared to shift your cutting frequencies to wherever there's a space in their sound, even if it means compromising on your tone - what's the point of a beautiful sound if no-one can hear it? Ugly but loud is much better!

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='577195' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:20 PM']Angle wise, I was at 45 degrees above and to the side. I was just surprised that I made the QSC clip, at whcih point yes, it was loud enough.[/quote]

Wow, you're WAY off-axis then, that's about 55 deg off-axis total. I don't have any measurements of what 4x10" cabs do off axis but they should perform a bit worse than a 21" driver in the difference between on and off-axis response.



Notice how the midrange and treble response diminishes off-axis (that's 45 deg btw). So the first step is to point that speaker array at your ears without losing your boundary reinforcement in the lows.

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='577195' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:20 PM']If I bridge it, I send 1200w into the 8 ohm cab, lol, sounds like a huge amount. And should be way more, way WAY more than is either necessary or indeed safe. Dunno, maybe I was not driving the amp hard enough with the sansamp level, but then I got the amp to clip, so surely I was?[/quote]

Yes, you were. I don't think bridging is a good idea - even as little as 250W will take those woofers to Xmax.

Alex

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='577207' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:34 PM']The bass sound on that first Killers album, and every TV broadcast I heard from that era, is one of the best bass sounds I've ever heard. So anything like that should growl through beautifully, as long as your guitarist isn't masking that region - if you are depping with noisy guitarists I'd be prepared to shift your cutting frequencies to wherever there's a space in their sound, even if it means compromising on your tone - what's the point of a beautiful sound if no-one can hear it? Ugly but loud is much better!

[b][i]LOL, very much agreed. I dont care what it sounds like solo if I am in a band.[/i[/b]]


Wow, you're WAY off-axis then, that's about 55 deg off-axis total. I don't have any measurements of what 4x10" cabs do off axis but they should perform a bit worse than a 21" driver in the difference between on and off-axis response.

[b][i]Just to clarify then, I was about 3 feet in front and 2 feet to the side.[/i][/b]



Notice how the midrange and treble response diminishes off-axis (that's 45 deg btw). So the first step is to point that speaker array at your ears without losing your boundary reinforcement in the lows.



Yes, you were. I don't think bridging is a good idea - even as little as 250W will take those woofers to Xmax.

[i][b]But the cab is rated at 800w - cue mis-informed statement, but in the PA woolrd they reckon 1.5*RMS rating delivered to the cab is GOOD[/b][/i]?[/quote]

Edited August 21, 2009 by nottswarwick

[alexclaber]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='577195' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:20 PM']But the cab is rated at 800w - cue mis-informed statement, but in the PA world they reckon 1.5*RMS rating delivered to the cab is GOOD?[/quote]

They do indeed. Well with PA tops you reach thermal limits before excursion limits (due to the lack of lows they're producing), so having more than enough power reduces the risk of clipping and thus damage to tweeters (not woofers, woofers don't give a damn about clipping). And with decent PA subs the woofers have big excursion limits and thus can handle that much movement without problems. Throw 1.5X rated power into a cheaper 'full-range' PA speaker and you'll get all manner of unhappy woofer noises just as you will with 99% of bass cabs.

At the moment the 10" driver status quo is that the best neo 10"s can handle about 75W each in the lows in a typical cab alignment without over-excursion. The Acme, Berg HT, Ampeg HLF and Basson 10"s can handle more but with varying costs in midrange output and broadband sensitivity. You can get round this excursion limited power handling challenge by squishing them into a smaller cab a la Schroeder but that costs you in LF sensitivity, so what you gain on the one hand you lose on the other.

If you're careful with the amount of lows you're putting out you can certainly try bridging the amp but if you're struggling to hear the mids you might also struggle to hear any sounds of complaint.

Alex

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='577226' date='Aug 21 2009, 11:56 PM']At the moment the 10" driver status quo is that the best neo 10"s can handle about 75W each in the lows in a typical cab alignment without over-excursion. The Acme, Berg HT, Ampeg HLF and Basson 10"s can handle more but with varying costs in midrange output and broadband sensitivity. You can get round this excursion limited power handling challenge by squishing them into a smaller cab a la Schroeder but that costs you in LF sensitivity, so what you gain on the one hand you lose on the other.
Alex[/quote]

Surely then the cab should not be rated at 800W !!! and even using one channel of my power amp at 500W I need to be careful?

And thus further more, 300w form Doods F1 should be a great match. Confused.

Edited August 21, 2009 by nottswarwick

[alexclaber]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='577231' date='Aug 22 2009, 12:00 AM']Surely then the cab should not be rated at 800W !!! and even using one channel of my power amp at 500W I need to be careful?

And thus further more, 300w form Doods F1 should be a great match. Confused.[/quote]

Well I believe manufacturers should quote a recommended amp power range which takes into account sensitivity, thermal power handling and excursion limited power handling. That 250-300W level is the point at which the woofers exceed 10% THD (total harmonic distortion) in the lows. The point of failure is quite a lot higher (same with all pro audio drivers - hi-fi drivers have Xlim (failure) barely greater than Xmax (10% THD)) but once you go past Xmax the speaker characteristics and thus the sound changes. Also as you're playing a bass, not a sine wave generator, your power demands are spread across a wide spectrum so to get 250W in the lows you might need 500W overall - hugely depends on your tone and of course how low your bass goes (low B and F# strings get pretty demanding in the 50-100Hz region).

If you've got some nice earplugs or can stand a long way from the cab, bridge your amp into it and note how the tone changes as you crank up the volume from loud to really LOUD. It'll be particularly obvious on the attack of low notes. Some cabs make a clear farting sound, some get very growly, all get boomier and more compressed. This is where small cabs often fall down - it takes a certain amount of clean air moving ability to satisfy most bassists working with drummers and there's a tipping point where you go from always exceeding Xmax to only hitting it at fortissimo moments. Going back a decade that's exactly why 3x10"s came about.

Unfortunately once you start getting technical it gets pretty complicated - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Alex

[chris_b]

I agree you have to get the job done right when you’re depping. I don't know the gear you are using but I'm surprised that a 410 can't keep up with a 12 + 210. I had no trouble with my Thunderfunk at 300 watts into my Epifani 410 playing with a very loud guitarist.

Have you heard the 800 watt Markbass amps? I believe they are 500 watts at 8 ohm.

[Merton]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='577163' date='Aug 21 2009, 10:23 PM']actually that is funnily enough one of my thoughts.

If you will excuse the question, have you got a big one? (oh dear..)[/quote]
No, I don't. Oh dear, poor Nic!

Ahem.

No, I have a Vintage but had the pleasure of having the pre-prod Big One in my possession for a month or two at the beginning of the year and it is a bloody fantastic cab. Oooodles of bass, ooodles of mid and ooodles of shimmery top end, and it's so sensitive and loud I made the flat shake with the volume on one (LH500 powering it). Lovely!