recording overdriven guitar

[Tait]

hi,

as you may have seen in my "general recording help" thread, i'm fairly new to all this recording stuff. i think i'm getting a fair bit better at it, using advice from people on this forum, reading through the reaper user guide chapter by chapter, and just experimenting. but one thing i'm having a lot of trouble with is getting overdriven guitar to sound good. at the moment it sounds either fuzzy and muddy, or it sounds like a clean guitar if i lower the gain too much. i can't seem to find the middle ground. me and the guitarist in my band spent quite a while trying to get it right, and although what we ended up with sounded useable, it didn't sound good.

its not so much solos and stuff we're having trouble with, we got that sounding great, its the rythm guitar doing the chords in the background (mainly power chords). it sounds fine live, but in the studio we can't get it to sound right at all.

its probably something to do with the way we're EQing the guitar, something to do with how i'm recording and something to do with my lack of good mixing and editing skills, but thats what i'm here for, to learn! so what magic tricks do you guys have up your sleeves?

any help would be greatly appreciated,

Luke.

EDIT: oh, and my guitarist has recently got some massive multi FX pedal that we'll probably try using rather than his amp next time we try recording. do you think that will improve the sound or whatever? sorry i haven't got more info of the pedal, he's only used it for one gig so i haven't had the chance to have a proper look at it.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Tait

[umph]

[quote name='Tait' post='577502' date='Aug 22 2009, 12:37 PM']EDIT: oh, and my guitarist has recently got some massive multi FX pedal that we'll probably try using rather than his amp next time we try recording. do you think that will improve the sound or whatever? sorry i haven't got more info of the pedal, he's only used it for one gig so i haven't had the chance to have a proper look at it.[/quote]

that might be the problem, for a short and simple solution i recomend sticking a sm57 infront of a cranked valve amp

[Rimskidog]

There are a hundred ways to skin this particular cat. Unfortunaly there are 200 ways to screw it up. If you have the sound you want coming out of the speaker you then have to think about the room: is it colouring the sound in an unpleasant way?if so you may be able to reduce the room sound either by using gobos (or maybe a duvet) to minimise that. If you have that covered (no pun intended) are you using a mic that will tend to capture the sound you are after? An sm57, for example, will capture a mid-forward sound (some might say nasally). If you only have one mic you won't be able to experiment to find the right one for you track. The next thing to think about is mic placement. It isn't as simple as "just sticking a mic in front of the cab. Different placements will capture very different tones. There is no substitute for moving the mic around to find the right position. Broad strokes but close up on the grill will capture in your face guitars, further back will push them back in a mix (but you'll need a good sounding room). Pointing the mic closer to the centre of the cone will make for a treblier output, closer to the edge will be bassier. A movement of as little as an inch can make a huge difference. A decent preamplifier is a prerequisite. Different models will provide for different flavours API does aggressive guitars very well. Chandler germ is great on dirty guitars, tg2 for a full sounding rhythm. The list goes on...

Edited August 22, 2009 by Rimskidog

[Rimskidog]

Btw, if you want to read a more in depth guide to this I did a long one here: [url="http://forums.dv247.com/recording-mixing/717-recording-awesome-guitars.html"]http://forums.dv247.com/recording-mixing/7...me-guitars.html[/url]

[WalMan]

[quote name='umph' post='577843' date='Aug 22 2009, 08:42 PM']that might be the problem, for a short and simple solution i recomend sticking a sm57 infront of a cranked valve amp[/quote]
Yup I'd go with that.

Perhaps get him to look at something like the Orange Tiny Terror. Small and not hugely loud (7 & 15 w) but souinds just great from clean through crunch to nutter and because its not high output can be pushed in small spaces. There are a few similar things about, I just know about the TT because #2 son got one a couple of years back. He originally went looking for a 50w amp to use for practice and a bit of recording and while we were in GAK I noticed the TT and said "what about one of those?". Tried it and was instantly smitten.

I also recall him talking of a guy they were trying to record on his course last year. Bloke had a string of distortion pedals and the sound was not great, so #2 sets up a solid rhythm sound for him without the pedals that the rest of his band were pleased with, but matey boy had to use his pedals and ended up with a sh1te sound - that's guitards for you

Edited August 22, 2009 by WalMan

[sdgrsr400]

Another option is to record fairly clean, and add the dist & effects later in the DAW. Maybe get hold of Guitar LE as per [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53874&hl=LE"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53874&hl=LE[/url]

[slaphappygarry]

Adding to what has been said, make sure the guitar has some clean new strings. This improves clarity. A dirty, dead set of strings wont ever sound good.

[Tait]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='577886' date='Aug 22 2009, 09:51 PM']There are a hundred ways to skin this particular cat. Unfortunaly there are 200 ways to screw it up. If you have the sound you want coming out of the speaker you then have to think about the room: is it colouring the sound in an unpleasant way?if so you may be able to reduce the room sound either by using gobos (or maybe a duvet) to minimise that. If you have that covered (no pun intended) are you using a mic that will tend to capture the sound you are after? An sm57, for example, will capture a mid-forward sound (some might say nasally). If you only have one mic you won't be able to experiment to find the right one for you track. The next thing to think about is mic placement. It isn't as simple as "just sticking a mic in front of the cab. Different placements will capture very different tones. There is no substitute for moving the mic around to find the right position. Broad strokes but close up on the grill will capture in your face guitars, further back will push them back in a mix (but you'll need a good sounding room). Pointing the mic closer to the centre of the cone will make for a treblier output, closer to the edge will be bassier. A movement of as little as an inch can make a huge difference. A decent preamplifier is a prerequisite. Different models will provide for different flavours API does aggressive guitars very well. Chandler germ is great on dirty guitars, tg2 for a full sounding rhythm. The list goes on...[/quote]

atm i'm using a line out from the amp, although i've been planning on experimenting with recording through a mic in front of the speaker for a little while. is that what you'd recommend? tbh in the general recording help thread skankdevlar gave me a list of pros and cons for line outs and using a mic, and what he recommended was to record the main track with a line out, then maybe another track with a mic, and then you can mix the two (or more) tracks to get a good sound. this was talking about recording in general though, not guitar in particular, so i was planning on messing about with it, but would you recommend this specifically for guitar, or would you say to solely record with a mic in front of the speaker?

[quote name='WalMan' post='577889' date='Aug 22 2009, 09:57 PM']Yup I'd go with that.

Perhaps get him to look at something like the Orange Tiny Terror. Small and not hugely loud (7 & 15 w) but souinds just great from clean through crunch to nutter and because its not high output can be pushed in small spaces. There are a few similar things about, I just know about the TT because #2 son got one a couple of years back. He originally went looking for a 50w amp to use for practice and a bit of recording and while we were in GAK I noticed the TT and said "what about one of those?". Tried it and was instantly smitten.

I also recall him talking of a guy they were trying to record on his course last year. Bloke had a string of distortion pedals and the sound was not great, so #2 sets up a solid rhythm sound for him without the pedals that the rest of his band were pleased with, but matey boy had to use his pedals and ended up with a sh1te sound - that's guitards for you [/quote]

he's using a fender amp that he always uses live when he records, [url="http://www.fender.co.uk/products//search.php?partno=2316600000"]this one[/url]
i believe, but i'm not 100% sure. i know a lot of people don't particularly like fender amps, but i have the same problems when i record through my dad's line 6 spider and when i just go out of my marshall guv'nor pedal, and we both really like the sound he gets from his fender amp when playing live, so i don't think its a problem with the amp tbh. i think its more just how we're EQing or how we're going about recording it or something.

he never used to use any pedals except one from his amp that changed channels from clean to overdriven, and hes recently got a new multi FX pedal that we've not had chance to record with yet, so i'm pretty sure it isn't a matter of using too many pedals or anything.

[quote name='sdgrsr400' post='577892' date='Aug 22 2009, 10:03 PM']Another option is to record fairly clean, and add the dist & effects later in the DAW. Maybe get hold of Guitar LE as per [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53874&hl=LE"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53874&hl=LE[/url][/quote]

we've tried that with some VST plugins and stuff that came with reaper, and they all sound really bad. but i haven't given the one in the link a go yet, if i can't find any other solutions i'll try it out.

[quote name='slaphappygarry' post='578215' date='Aug 23 2009, 02:35 PM']Adding to what has been said, make sure the guitar has some clean new strings. This improves clarity. A dirty, dead set of strings wont ever sound good.[/quote]

i haven't thought to check this with my guitarist, even though its really obvious. i'll make sure next time we're recording that he changes his strings before hand, see if that helps.

thanks for the advice so far everyone, its all useful.

[mike257]

All good advice above! I'm not too familiar with the amp you're using, but I've always found that 'just breaking up nice' overdrive sound is really hard to acheive with solid-state amps. I'd work as hard as you can on the guitar sound itself before you come to recording it. Fresh strings was a cracking shout, makes a world of difference. I see that amp is a digital modelling jobbie, so try a few of the different models out, or listen to some samples of the real things and see which is closest to the sound you want.

A mic on the cab will (IMO) always sound better than a line out for recording a driven guitar sound. Guitar speakers have a natural roll-off of high frequencies, so you don't hear some of the nastiness in the extra harmonics. A line-out signal won't give you this, and you'll get a lot more harsh and fuzzy top end from it. Experiment with micing the centre or the outside of the cone, as different mic positions will make a huge difference to your tone.

In a perfect world, you'd go out and buy a valve amp, but with a bit of experimenting, you can get good results by making the best of what you've got! Have fun

[Tait]

[quote name='mike257' post='578968' date='Aug 24 2009, 12:40 PM']All good advice above! I'm not too familiar with the amp you're using, but I've always found that 'just breaking up nice' overdrive sound is really hard to acheive with solid-state amps. I'd work as hard as you can on the guitar sound itself before you come to recording it. Fresh strings was a cracking shout, makes a world of difference. I see that amp is a digital modelling jobbie, so try a few of the different models out, or listen to some samples of the real things and see which is closest to the sound you want.

A mic on the cab will (IMO) always sound better than a line out for recording a driven guitar sound. Guitar speakers have a natural roll-off of high frequencies, so you don't hear some of the nastiness in the extra harmonics. A line-out signal won't give you this, and you'll get a lot more harsh and fuzzy top end from it. Experiment with micing the centre or the outside of the cone, as different mic positions will make a huge difference to your tone.

In a perfect world, you'd go out and buy a valve amp, but with a bit of experimenting, you can get good results by making the best of what you've got! Have fun [/quote]

the line 6 is a digital modelling jobbie, the fender isn't (although i've just realised the link i posted was to the wrong amp, so the one in the link might have been). we've got a lovely sound sorted live, but we're going to work on it.

pretty much everyone i've spoken to has said for recording overdriven guitar you want to put the mic on the cab, so we'll rerecord like that, see how it sounds. so i'm going to experiment with it over the next few weeks and stuff, see how we do.

although i'll be experimenting with my dad's line 6, which only has 1 speaker, whereas my guitarist's fender has 2, where would you put the mic on a cab with 2 speakers? would you use 2 mics into 2 inputs? would you just mic up 1 speaker? would you record each speaker seperately?

a basschatter has kindly offered to see if he can get us some recording time in his college's recording studio in september/october, he says he'll engineer a few songs for us and show us how he'd do it all. so hopefully i'll learn a lot from that and we'll come out with some good quality recordings.

[51m0n]

Never try and record an overdriven or distorted guitar from a DI. It just about never sounds as good.

The above advice is all excellent.

I'm currently trying to get my guitarist to splash for a low power tube amp for live so he can crank the nuts off it without deafening us, and we can use the PA then to get it FOH and monitor. He isnt againt the idea (which is really unusual in itself), he just needs to get the funds together.....

[jonny-lad]

I definately think that using a mic is the best way to record overdriven guitar - I use an SM57 and always get good results. I tend to mic 3 or 4 inches off the centre of a 12 inch speaker, and as you'll have the same sound coming out of both speakers on a combo with two, you'll only need to mic one of them.

Double-tracking might be worth trying if you need a fuller sound...it's more work as you'll have to record the part twice, but it can give some great results, especially if you mix two different tones.

[BOD2]

As has been said before, the Line Out (or DI out) from a guitar amp seldom sounds good for distorted sounds. A lot of the warm tone you hear in a distorted guitar comes from the speaker and the Line Out bypasses the speaker so you end up with something completely different.

Mic'ing up the speaker is the best option if you can play loud enough in the studio space to get a good sound. Experiment with "close mic'ing" with the mic a few inches from the speaker cone, then move the mic to different locations relative to the speaker and listen to the effect that has on the tone (i.e. in front of the centre of the speaker, then off to one side).

It's also common to use two mics at the same time into independent channels then mix these two signals to get the guitar sound - one close mic and another several feet away, or even at the rear of an open cabinet.

With a Line 6 amp (and maybe the guuitarist;'s new FX uinit) you can use the same techniques but you should also be able to take a "Line Out" that has "speaker cabinet modelling" applied to it. This simlates the effect of the speaker on the Line out signal and can sometimes be useful, especially if you have to record at lower volumes or can't use a mic in front of the cab for some reason.

Finally, if it's a "classic rock" type sound you're looking for (rather than a death metal sound) then try reducing the amount of distortion on the amp and bring up the middle. Those original AC/DC-type sounds are often not as dirty as you might think, and reducing the distortion allows the tone of the guitar through.

[bumfrog]

what you need is one of these
[url="http://www.voxamps.com/us/modernclassic/ac4tv/"]http://www.voxamps.com/us/modernclassic/ac4tv/[/url]

Has a built in attenuator so you can get the lovely sounds at lower volumes.

Personally I use an sm57 right up to near the grille and then a large diaphragm condenser somewhere behind.

But lately i've ditched all that and just started using plugins such a guitar rig. Providing you roll off the top and bottom of end of the eq, once it's in the mix behind a compressor, you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference when it's low end recording.

[Tait]

[quote name='BOD2' post='579144' date='Aug 24 2009, 03:12 PM']As has been said before, the Line Out (or DI out) from a guitar amp seldom sounds good for distorted sounds. A lot of the warm tone you hear in a distorted guitar comes from the speaker and the Line Out bypasses the speaker so you end up with something completely different.

Mic'ing up the speaker is the best option if you can play loud enough in the studio space to get a good sound. Experiment with "close mic'ing" with the mic a few inches from the speaker cone, then move the mic to different locations relative to the speaker and listen to the effect that has on the tone (i.e. in front of the centre of the speaker, then off to one side).

It's also common to use two mics at the same time into independent channels then mix these two signals to get the guitar sound - one close mic and another several feet away, or even at the rear of an open cabinet.

With a Line 6 amp (and maybe the guuitarist;'s new FX uinit) you can use the same techniques but you should also be able to take a "Line Out" that has "speaker cabinet modelling" applied to it. This simlates the effect of the speaker on the Line out signal and can sometimes be useful, especially if you have to record at lower volumes or can't use a mic in front of the cab for some reason.

Finally, if it's a "classic rock" type sound you're looking for (rather than a death metal sound) then try reducing the amount of distortion on the amp and bring up the middle. Those original AC/DC-type sounds are often not as dirty as you might think, and reducing the distortion allows the tone of the guitar through.[/quote]

i'm thinking that's my biggest problem, i've been DIing.

i'll experiment with both types of mic'ing and then experiment with mixing them, see what sounds best.

this speaker cabinet modelling, i dont think my dad's line 6 has got that on it, but if my guitarist's FX unit has, how would i go about using it? do i line out with cabinet modelling, or do i still mic up the cabinet?

i keep telling my guitarist to turn down the gain and turn up the volume to get a nicer tone, but he's always reluctant. i keep drilling it into him next recording session.

and jonny lad, i'll definatly only need to mic up one of the speakers? they're the same size so i would have thought so, but my amp only has 1 speaker so i can't mess around with a 2 speaker amp and i don't want to end up getting to recording my guitarist and only mic'ing up one speaker to find it sounds horrible, so i just want to check before hand

[The Funk]

[quote name='umph' post='577843' date='Aug 22 2009, 08:42 PM']that might be the problem, for a short and simple solution i recomend sticking a sm57 infront of a cranked valve amp[/quote]

Nothing sounds better

[The Funk]

[quote name='51m0n' post='579049' date='Aug 24 2009, 01:35 PM']Never try and record an overdriven or distorted guitar from a DI. It just about never sounds as good.[/quote]


[quote name='BOD2' post='579144' date='Aug 24 2009, 03:12 PM']As has been said before, the Line Out (or DI out) from a guitar amp seldom sounds good for distorted sounds. A lot of the warm tone you hear in a distorted guitar comes from the speaker and the Line Out bypasses the speaker so you end up with something completely different.[/quote]

Agree 100%. The problem is that almost all of a guitar's sound comes from the inherent deficiencies of the speaker, which ironically sound so damn good. Unless you're using a Line / DI Out with some kind of inbuilt speaker/cab modelling, it'll sound awful.

If you don't have a mic or decent amp, you could also try taking a DI out of the multi-effects unit, if it has some kind of amp/cab modelling.

[mike257]

[quote name='Tait' post='579275' date='Aug 24 2009, 05:17 PM']this speaker cabinet modelling, i dont think my dad's line 6 has got that on it, but if my guitarist's FX unit has, how would i go about using it? do i line out with cabinet modelling, or do i still mic up the cabinet?[/quote]

I wouldn't use the cabinet modelling [i]and[/i] a real speaker together, just one or the other. The cabinet modelling is designed so you can use the line out to record, without the sonic drawbacks mentioned further back in the thread. It's simulating the effect a speaker would have on your tone with EQ jiggery-pokery and other such tricks. It's worth a try if your struggling with micing.

[quote]i keep telling my guitarist to turn down the gain and turn up the volume to get a nicer tone, but he's always reluctant. i keep drilling it into him next recording session.[/quote]

Definitely. Although it might sound like a big rock tone in the room when he's playing on his own, that little bit less gain will give loads more clarity to the parts being played, so it'll blend better with other instruments in the mix. I've recorded plenty of guitarists reluctant to believe this, but the proof is in the pudding.

If you're tracking rhythm guitar parts, reducing the gain a bit but double tracking the part and panning it out left and right a bit is a nice way to fill the sound out. Don't fall for the shortcut of copy-pasting to another track instead of actually doubling the part though. It's the subtle differences from one take to the next that give the sound more depth.

[quote]and jonny lad, i'll definatly only need to mic up one of the speakers? they're the same size so i would have thought so, but my amp only has 1 speaker so i can't mess around with a 2 speaker amp and i don't want to end up getting to recording my guitarist and only mic'ing up one speaker to find it sounds horrible, so i just want to check before hand [/quote]

You only need to mic up one, whether it's a 2x12, a 4x12 or an 8x10! Of course, if you want to experiment, there's no rule against covering it with all kinds of mics, but for the simplest, quickest good result, one mic on one speaker is fine. If you start using multiple mics you have to worry about phasing and all sorts of nonsense, I prefer keeping it simple!

[The Funk]

Just to add that Line 6 are the kings of amp modelling so I'd be very surprised if there isn't a speaker emulation on its Line Out.

[Fraktal]

Assuming you are using a computer to record, you should really try IK Multimedia's Amplitube software. I couldnt live without it. By these days, unless I meet a perfect guitarist with a perfect valve amp and a perfect guitar inside a perfect studio room, and unless I have loads of time to experiment with different mics and zillions of mic placement/combinations/permutations I refuse to use anything else than Amplitube. 95% of the time it sounds better than anything else and saves lots of time and headaches.

[Tait]

[quote name='Fraktal' post='580216' date='Aug 25 2009, 01:58 PM']Assuming you are using a computer to record, you should really try IK Multimedia's Amplitube software. I couldnt live without it. By these days, unless I meet a perfect guitarist with a perfect valve amp and a perfect guitar inside a perfect studio room, and unless I have loads of time to experiment with different mics and zillions of mic placement/combinations/permutations I refuse to use anything else than Amplitube. 95% of the time it sounds better than anything else and saves lots of time and headaches.[/quote]

problem is, that amplutube costs way too much for my liking. it looks like excellent software, but i just don't have the cash for it.

i'm just going to have to work on getting a good sound with my guitarist. my dad's also told me that he's got a pedal with decent speaker modelling on it, so i'll give that a go, see how that works, too.

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='mike257' post='579852' date='Aug 25 2009, 09:09 AM'][quote name='Tait' post='579275' date='Aug 24 2009, 05:17 PM']
and jonny lad, i'll definatly only need to mic up one of the speakers? they're the same size so i would have thought so, but my amp only has 1 speaker so i can't mess around with a 2 speaker amp and i don't want to end up getting to recording my guitarist and only mic'ing up one speaker to find it sounds horrible, so i just want to check before hand [/quote]
You only need to mic up one, whether it's a 2x12, a 4x12 or an 8x10! Of course, if you want to experiment, there's no rule against covering it with all kinds of mics, but for the simplest, quickest good result, one mic on one speaker is fine. If you start using multiple mics you have to worry about phasing and all sorts of nonsense, I prefer keeping it simple!
[/quote]
Yep - it's good to keep things simple to avoid things like phasing...I only own one SM57 so I only ever mic up a guitar amp with one mic and get good results with it.

It's always good to try a few different mic positions with some rough recordings to see what works best before you record the full track too.

[bumfrog]

[quote name='Tait' post='580284' date='Aug 25 2009, 02:44 PM']problem is, that amplutube costs way too much for my liking. it looks like excellent software, but i just don't have the cash for it.

i'm just going to have to work on getting a good sound with my guitarist. my dad's also told me that he's got a pedal with decent speaker modelling on it, so i'll give that a go, see how that works, too.[/quote]

I think if you get the guitar rig demo, it'll run for 30 minutes before stopping each time. Should be enough time to record a session or do a render. Worth a quick try at any rate. Some of the other's like Amplitube and Waves GT3 may also do that as well.

[skankdelvar]

If you go the mic-ed amp route, try capturing a second, clean signal from the guitar. Just insert a DI box between the guitar and the amp. Send the clean DI signal to one recording input / track and the miced signal to another. Stick both tracks in a reaper folder. Time-align the two signals and try different combinations of clean / distorted mix.

Agree that micing a small valve amp is the best way to go, but not always practical. Myself, I'd love to mic up an amp, but my room at home sounds horrible, even when an amp's close miked. Also, my neighbours would get a bit iffy, even with a 5w amp - which can be loud little buggers. Can take a lot of experimentation to get the sound you want, and though educationally beneficial, you could be spending that time on getting the song down.

I use an old Johnson J-station - nicer sounds than my line6 pod, IMO. Now discontinued but they crop up cheap on the bay -£70-ish. Either that or the guitar straight into an amp-sim plug-in. There are some full-function freebies floating around which may be worth trying, such as Studio Devil. By the time you've layered some rtm gtr tracks, you usually won't notice too much of a difference.

At a later stage in the project, you can always switch off the amp-sim plug-in; send the un-effected guitar track out to an amp and re-record the amp output back onto a new track.

Here's a couple of useful links:
[url="http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-48705_32_0.html"]http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-48705_32_0.html[/url]
[url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug98/articles/20tips.html"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug98/articles/20tips.html[/url]

I can also highly recommend "Recording Guitar and Bass" by Huw Price (Backbeat Books). Easy read, pretty comprehensive.

Edited August 26, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Wil]

I use amplitube for home demos, and for practicality purposes it's brilliant. The models aren't perfect, but perfectly adaquate for home recordings unless you really want a professional sound, in which case you are best off investing in either a) studio time or the aforementioned cranked valve amp and condensor mic magic combination.