leftybassman392 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Hey guys. Just an update to let you know I haven't forgotten about doing this stuff. I think it will be easiest to use PM's to send it to you - that way other people won't have to wade through it, and we can hopefully avoid cheap shots of the 'well it's all Greek to me...' variety. Perhaps we could use the thread to discuss matters arising. Just a thought... Andy p.s. For the benefit of those who are reading this and feeling slightly baffled, a thread appeared a little while ago on the subject of modes. I have studied the ancient Greeks (who gave their name to the modes) and their music in some depth, and offered to give others a bit of an insight. Several people accepted the offer and now here we are. If you would like to have your name added to the mailing list then please PM me, but be warned that it's kind of technical. First mailing will cover some background issues - Instruments, musicians, language issues, etc. I'll try to send stuff around once every couple of weeks from there and we'll see how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='leftybassman392' post='581988' date='Aug 26 2009, 10:55 PM']Hey guys. Just an update to let you know I haven't forgotten about doing this stuff. I think it will be easiest to use PM's to send it to you - that way other people won't have to wade through it, and we can hopefully avoid cheap shots of the 'well it's all Greek to me...' variety. Perhaps we could use the thread to discuss matters arising. Just a thought... Andy p.s. For the benefit of those who are reading this and feeling slightly baffled, a thread appeared a little while ago on the subject of modes. I have studied the ancient Greeks (who gave their name to the modes) and their music in some depth, and offered to give others a bit of an insight. Several people accepted the offer and now here we are. If you would like to have your name added to the mailing list then please PM me, but be warned that it's kind of technical. First mailing will cover some background issues - Instruments, musicians, language issues, etc. I'll try to send stuff around once every couple of weeks from there and we'll see how it goes.[/quote] Andy, I'd much appreciate being in on that if possible. PM sent. Edited August 27, 2009 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouMa Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I tried building an aeolian harp once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I remember one lesson when I studied Ancient Greek in which a discussion began about an odd translation along the lines of "the exotic-sounding Ionian scale". Our extremely knowledgeable teacher assured us that while the names of the modes are derived from Ancient Greece, the actual scales to which they refer are not necessarily the same. But then the Ancient Greeks thought the Persians were effeminate for wearing trousers - so maybe the Ionian mode did sound exotic to them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='The Funk' post='582100' date='Aug 27 2009, 06:00 AM']I remember one lesson when I studied Ancient Greek in which a discussion began about an odd translation along the lines of "the exotic-sounding Ionian scale". Our extremely knowledgeable teacher assured us that while the names of the modes are derived from Ancient Greece, the actual scales to which they refer are not necessarily the same.[/quote] Most people know them as the Ecclesiastical Modes because (to cut a very long and convoluted story to shreds) the medieval church took over an immensely complex and varied set of musical ideas from the Greeks (with some Roman input along the way), and whittled it down to something the masses could get along with (sound familiar?). The system of modes we have today is a development of that, with some other stuff like equal temperament thrown in. The original names are taken from early Greek tribes - The Ionians, Dorians, etc. Each of the tribes had their own notions of music, so that an Ionian scale in it's original Ancient form could well sound exotic, both to other tribes of the period and to us. One thing I can tell you is that it almost certainly didn't sound like a modern Major scale. Edited August 27, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Thanks for the explanation, Lefty! Does your knowledge reach further back than the Church's interventions? This whole topic sounds fascinating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='582087' date='Aug 27 2009, 02:14 AM']Andy, I'd much appreciate being in on that if possible. PM sent.[/quote] And replied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='582436' date='Aug 27 2009, 01:49 PM']Thanks for the explanation, Lefty! Does your knowledge reach further back than the Church's interventions? This whole topic sounds fascinating![/quote] Actually the Ancient Greeks is more my area than the medieval period - as I see it the early Church hijacked most of their notions from the likes of Plato and (especially) Aristotle anyway. Greeks are a much more interesting culture all round IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='582436' date='Aug 27 2009, 01:49 PM']Thanks for the explanation, Lefty! Does your knowledge reach further back than the Church's interventions? This whole topic sounds fascinating![/quote] You want me to put you on the mailing list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) This sounds interesting Lefty. Can you put me on the list. Garry Edited August 27, 2009 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='lowdown' post='582547' date='Aug 27 2009, 03:39 PM']This sounds interesting Lefty. Can you put me on the list. Garry[/quote] Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) A little something to get the collective little grey cells working: India has the Sitar originating from the thirteenth century (technically a member of the lute family); Persia has the Setar, dating from about the birth of Islam (i.e. around 7th/8th century and also a type of lute) Ancient Greece had the Cithara (Latin spelling) or Kithara (no 'c' in the Greek alphabet) - a type of lyre; Italy has a traditional folk instrument called a Chitarra that dates back several hundred years at least - somewhat similar to a modern classical guitar; We have the guitar. What, if any, is the connection? Not a trick question or one I know the answer to, but the etymology is striking. Problem is - all these instruments are lute based or lute derived, except the Kithara... the Greeks had a lute - but it had a completely different name (Pandoura) Edited August 27, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I'd also be very interested in this mr lefty sir. Can you add me to your list please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='SteveO' post='582700' date='Aug 27 2009, 05:51 PM']I'd also be very interested in this mr lefty sir. Can you add me to your list please. [/quote] Certainly my son. Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velvetkevorkian Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I'd also be interested- thanks for taking the time Leftybassman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='582856' date='Aug 27 2009, 08:11 PM']I'd also be interested- thanks for taking the time Leftybassman![/quote] Yup no problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) Quick update folks. I've been in conversation with one of the Mods, who has kindly consented to putting the series up as a sticky thread (I have been surprised at the number of requests I've had for this topic, and it was becoming clear that using PM's was going to be impractical). Will be getting things going on Saturday. Andy Edited August 27, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='582444' date='Aug 27 2009, 01:58 PM']And replied.[/quote] Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='leftybassman392' post='582679' date='Aug 27 2009, 05:23 PM']A little something to get the collective little grey cells working: India has the Sitar originating from the thirteenth century (technically a member of the lute family); Persia has the Setar, dating from about the birth of Islam (i.e. around 7th/8th century and also a type of lute) Ancient Greece had the Cithara (Latin spelling) or Kithara (no 'c' in the Greek alphabet) - a type of lyre; Italy has a traditional folk instrument called a Chitarra that dates back several hundred years at least - somewhat similar to a modern classical guitar; We have the guitar. What, if any, is the connection? Not a trick question or one I know the answer to, but the etymology is striking. Problem is - all these instruments are lute based or lute derived, except the Kithara... the Greeks had a lute - but it had a completely different name (Pandoura)[/quote] All those words - [i]sitar[/i], [i]setar[/i], [i]kithara[/i], [i]cithara[/i], [i]chitarra[/i], [i]guitar[/i] (as well as probably several others such as [i]zither[/i] and [i]cittern[/i]) - will be cognates in various members of the Indo-European language family. So they are all originally the same word but over time their pronunciations have changed and their meanings have drifted from each other but not totally away from meaning a stringed instrument of one kind or another. [quote][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar"]Wikipedia says[/url]: Precursors of the guitar can be traced back as much as 4000 years to an Indo-European origin of stringed instruments once known in central Asia and India. For this reason guitars are distantly related to contemporary instruments from these regions, including the tanbur, setar and sitar, among others. The oldest known iconographic representation of an instrument displaying the essential features of a guitar is a 3,300 year old stone carving of a Hittite bard. The modern word, guitar, was adopted into English from Spanish guitarra (German Gitarre, French Guitare), loaned from the medieval Andalusian Arabic qitara, itself derived from the Latin cithara, which in turn came from the earlier Greek word kithara, a descendant of Old Persian sihtar (Tar means string in Persian).[/quote] There will be other groups of cognates relating to instruments such as (I'm guessing now) [i]violin[/i], [i]vihuela[/i], and [i]veena[/i]. Not much of an answer to the question asked though. Edited August 27, 2009 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='583058' date='Aug 27 2009, 11:15 PM']Not much of an answer to the question asked though.[/quote] It's a pretty good start though! It gives an interesting insight into the historical and geographical spread of stringed instruments. They notion of plucking strings to make music clearly goes back much further into Indo-European history than I knew of. It just seemed a bit odd that the Kithara (which by this reasoning sits within the chain, but is clearly a different type of instrument from all the others) should occupy the place it does, whilst the instrument that would appear to be a more likely candidate has a completely different name. Actually it would be a good idea to see if I can find out what a Sihtar looked like. Time to do a bit more digging methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='583362' date='Aug 28 2009, 11:11 AM']It's a pretty good start though! It gives an interesting insight into the historical and geographical spread of stringed instruments. They notion of plucking strings to make music clearly goes back much further into Indo-European history than I knew of. It just seemed a bit odd that the Kithara (which by this reasoning sits within the chain, but is clearly a different type of instrument from all the others) should occupy the place it does, whilst the instrument that would appear to be a more likely candidate has a completely different name. Actually it would be a good idea to see if I can find out what a Sihtar looked like. Time to do a bit more digging methinks.[/quote] Haven't been able to find a direct reference to this instrument, but there is an article in Wikipedia (admittedly vague and a bit short on supporting evidence) that refers to guitars and lutes separately in ancient Persian music going back to around 2,500 BC. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Persian Sihtar: Persian Tars: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 [url="http://www.dastanarts.com/images/SETAR.M3U"]Listen to a sihtar[/url] [url="http://www.dastanarts.com/images/TAR.M3U"]Listen to a tar[/url] [url="http://www.dastanarts.com/html/instruments2.html"]From this page[/url]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 Nice one! Looks like I need a new search engine Still it was only a quick search... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Found this site too: [url="http://www.atlasofpluckedinstruments.com/index.htm"]Atlas of Plucked Instruments[/url] It has an [url="http://www.atlasofpluckedinstruments.com/middle_east.htm#iran"]Iran Page[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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