leftybassman392 Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Fascinating stuff. Definitely adds some historical perspective. Tar looks particularly interesting. Do you happen to know whether these are modern recreations of ancient instruments or modernised versions? My feeling would be the latter (unlikely to be both as that would mean the instrument has not changed significantly in over 4000 years which seems very unlikely, and some of the sites you've located appear to view them as contemporary), but I'd be happy to be wrong. If there's a downside to this result it's that we're still not really close to knowing why the Greeks used a variation of this name to identify what is clearly a different instrument [url="http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kith/hd_kith.htm/The"]Check this link[/url] - actually I don't entirely agree with this description, in particular as to the number of strings, but it give you a good idea what it would have looked like. Ah well, the search goes on... Edited August 28, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='584175' date='Aug 28 2009, 11:37 PM']Do you happen to know whether these are modern recreations of ancient instruments or modernised versions? My feeling would be the latter (unlikely to be both as that would mean the instrument has not changed significantly in over 4000 years which seems very unlikely, and some of the sites you've located appear to view them as contemporary), but I'd be happy to be wrong.[/quote] I think I read on one of the sites that the Sihtar originally had three strings but a fourth was added in modern times. Couldn't find it when I checked again. [quote name='leftybassman392' post='584175' date='Aug 28 2009, 11:37 PM']If there's a downside to this result it's that we're still not really close to knowing why the Greeks used a variation of this name to identify what is clearly a different instrument [url="http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kith/hd_kith.htm/The"]Check this link[/url] - actually I don't entirely agree with this description, in particular as to the number of strings, but it give you a good idea what it would have looked like. Ah well, the search goes on...[/quote] I could be talking rubbish here but ... according to Liddell & Scott ... and if I'm understanding correctly ... the Greek verb [i]kitharizein[/i] was used to mean 'playing music' on any of several instruments including the phormigx and the lyra as well as the kithara. I'm not clear though what the relationship between these instruments was, e.g. how they differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='585362' date='Aug 30 2009, 08:36 PM']I think I read on one of the sites that the Sihtar originally had three strings but a fourth was added in modern times. Couldn't find it when I checked again. I could be talking rubbish here but ... according to Liddell & Scott ... and if I'm understanding correctly ... the Greek verb [i]kitharizein[/i] was used to mean 'playing music' on any of several instruments including the phormigx and the lyra as well as the kithara. I'm not clear though what the relationship between these instruments was, e.g. how they differ.[/quote] In the Persian, the 'tar' apparently refers to a string or strings, so it may be a reference to vibrating strings in general, (which would tend to support your point). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 The second article in the series, covering the basics of Greek scale structure, has been posted in the sticky thread above. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 It's now Thursday, and I haven't yet had anyone complain about anything. May I assume that everybody concerned is:- a. finding; b. understanding what I'm posting to the sticky? (If anyone's finding it overly easy at this stage, don't worry - it's gonna get harder soon enough There will be some Maths to do in a couple of weeks ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 Just a quick note to let you know that the next article, on basic rhythm and notation, is in the pipeline and will be appearing shortly. Unfortunately this has been a very busy week for me as I prepare for the start of my new teaching programme for the autumn session, which has meant that I haven't had the time to devote to this work as I would have liked. Apologies for the delay - once the new term gets under way things should settle down a bit. Apologies if you've been searching for it in vain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='594772' date='Sep 10 2009, 02:39 PM']It's now Thursday, and I haven't yet had anyone complain about anything. May I assume that everybody concerned is:- a. finding; b. understanding what I'm posting to the sticky? (If anyone's finding it overly easy at this stage, don't worry - it's gonna get harder soon enough There will be some Maths to do in a couple of weeks )[/quote] Hi Andy Yes I'm finding, and mostly understanding ! (But it makes my brain hurt a little !) I've performed many contemporary (classical) pieces that require quarter tone interval playing and its always hard for us modern musicians not to just think of it as being out of tune. However, having also worked with Indian Carnatic musos, I know just how effective it can be in the right setting. One question: how do the words " chromatic and enharmonic " end up describing these genus ? Diatonic I can understand, but not these first 2. Maybe I just don't really understand their original meaning. Keep up the great work Andy ! The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='597686' date='Sep 13 2009, 08:57 PM']Hi Andy Yes I'm finding, and mostly understanding ! (But it makes my brain hurt a little !) I've performed many contemporary (classical) pieces that require quarter tone interval playing and its always hard for us modern musicians not to just think of it as being out of tune. However, having also worked with Indian Carnatic musos, I know just how effective it can be in the right setting. One question: how do the words " chromatic and enharmonic " end up describing these genus ? Diatonic I can understand, but not these first 2. Maybe I just don't really understand their original meaning. Keep up the great work Andy ! The Major[/quote] I've seen a detailed explanation of that somewhere recently. I'll dig up the reference and post the details when I get a minute. Basically it's to do with literal references to colour - the chromatic tetrachord was seen as the 'colour' between the two extremes of diatonic and enharmonic. Can't accurately recall off the top of my head how the other two came to be so named, but I'll find out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 16, 2009 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 (edited) For those of you following the thread, the third article in the series, on the elements of Greek rhythm, has been posted in the sticky. Apologies for the delay .... I'm afraid there might be some gaps between articles for the next couple of weeks while my work pattern settles down. In the meantime, enjoy! As always, questions & comments welcome. Edited September 16, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 16, 2009 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='597686' date='Sep 13 2009, 08:57 PM']Hi Andy Yes I'm finding, and mostly understanding ! (But it makes my brain hurt a little !) I've performed many contemporary (classical) pieces that require quarter tone interval playing and its always hard for us modern musicians not to just think of it as being out of tune. However, having also worked with Indian Carnatic musos, I know just how effective it can be in the right setting. One question: how do the words " chromatic and enharmonic " end up describing these genus ? Diatonic I can understand, but not these first 2. Maybe I just don't really understand their original meaning. Keep up the great work Andy ! The Major[/quote] Major: Got a bit of an update for you. The words have to be deciphered from their original greek meanings, and to say the least there are some conflicting views! Diatonic stems from an original Greek word [b]Diatonos[/b], for which the generally accepted translation is 'through the tones'. Although there are in fact several ways of interpreting this phrase, the one that seems to make the most sense (to me at least) is that it refers to the consecutive whole tones that form the first two intervals in the Tetrachord. There is a slight problem with this interpretation, which is that the Diatonic Tetrachord didn't require two exact tones in the modern sense - however it was a common form of the genus and so appeals to commonsense. Chromatic stems from the Greek [b]Kromatica[/b], which has a root of [b]Kroma[/b], which translates as 'complexion' or (more commonly) 'colour'. Pinning down an exact interpretation of this is a little more tricky, but again the explanation that makes most sense to me is to do with the notion that there were known to be several different versions of the Chromatic genus in common use during the Greek Classical period, which could give rise to the idea that it was a genus that had, or allowed, several different complexions - difficulty with this is the question of how a term normally used to describe a visual phenomenon came to be used to describe sounds. Enharmonic - the origins of this are pretty much lost in the mists of time I'm afraid. The word is generally agreed to come from two Greek originals, namely [b]en[/b], which translates as 'in'; and '[b]armonia[/b]', which has a surprisingly large range of translations depending on context, but using commonsense as a guide it would seem that a good one to use here is'harmony' (yes I know it looks obvious when you say it like that, but the original as used by the Ancient Greeks really did have numerous meanings). Hence we get 'in harmony'. The main problem with this (as you won't need telling but I'm going to say it anyway), is that the enharmonic genus is easily the least 'in harmony' of the lot! At this point my research kind of peters out although one source toys around a bit with some of the other contexts but doesn't really improve on this translation. I'm sure I'm going to regret saying this, but I hope that helps (for what it's worth) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Things are on hold for a few days as I have Swine Flu. Looks like my wife has it as well so things will be pretty quiet around the leftybassman household this week. Touch wood mine seems to be fairly mild so far and with luck I should have the next article ready for next weekend, possibly early the following week depending on how Mrs. bassman is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velvetkevorkian Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Ouch. Get well soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='600412' date='Sep 16 2009, 04:29 PM']Major: Got a bit of an update for you. The words have to be deciphered from their original greek meanings, and to say the least there are some conflicting views! Diatonic stems from an original Greek word [b]Diatonos[/b], for which the generally accepted translation is 'through the tones'. Although there are in fact several ways of interpreting this phrase, the one that seems to make the most sense (to me at least) is that it refers to the consecutive whole tones that form the first two intervals in the Tetrachord. There is a slight problem with this interpretation, which is that the Diatonic Tetrachord didn't require two exact tones in the modern sense - however it was a common form of the genus and so appeals to commonsense. Chromatic stems from the Greek [b]Kromatica[/b], which has a root of [b]Kroma[/b], which translates as 'complexion' or (more commonly) 'colour'. Pinning down an exact interpretation of this is a little more tricky, but again the explanation that makes most sense to me is to do with the notion that there were known to be several different versions of the Chromatic genus in common use during the Greek Classical period, which could give rise to the idea that it was a genus that had, or allowed, several different complexions - difficulty with this is the question of how a term normally used to describe a visual phenomenon came to be used to describe sounds. Enharmonic - the origins of this are pretty much lost in the mists of time I'm afraid. The word is generally agreed to come from two Greek originals, namely [b]en[/b], which translates as 'in'; and '[b]armonia[/b]', which has a surprisingly large range of translations depending on context, but using commonsense as a guide it would seem that a good one to use here is'harmony' (yes I know it looks obvious when you say it like that, but the original as used by the Ancient Greeks really did have numerous meanings). Hence we get 'in harmony'. The main problem with this (as you won't need telling but I'm going to say it anyway), is that the enharmonic genus is easily the least 'in harmony' of the lot! At this point my research kind of peters out although one source toys around a bit with some of the other contexts but doesn't really improve on this translation. I'm sure I'm going to regret saying this, but I hope that helps (for what it's worth)[/quote] Andy - so sorry to hear about your Swine Flu ! Get better soon. And don't feel you have to rush with the Greek stuff. Re: Diatonic / Chromatic / Enharmonic: I suppose its not surprising that the meaning of these words has changed over thousands of years, and thank you for your research into their original meanings. I think though that I will not mention any of this to my students as I am sure it will confuse them even more than they are by my teaching ! The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='600412' date='Sep 16 2009, 04:29 PM']...and '[b]armonia[/b]', which has a surprisingly large range of translations depending on context,[/quote] <Pedant alert> That should be '[b]harmonia[/b]', rather than '[b]armonia[/b]' if you want an accurate transliteration, as the breathing on the alpha is rough, not smooth. </Pedant alert> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Earbrass' post='604445' date='Sep 21 2009, 12:52 PM']<Pedant alert> That should be '[b]harmonia[/b]', rather than '[b]armonia[/b]' if you want an accurate transliteration, as the breathing on the alpha is rough, not smooth. </Pedant alert>[/quote] Quite right! I'll try to be more careful in future. Edit added later: Actually, if we're being [i][b]really [/b][/i]pedantic about it, the English 'h' sound is fairly definite, whereas the Greek sound is more of a gutteral hiss uttered as you enunciate the vowel. I could argue that I was after an accurate translation of the spelling rather than the sound - but I won't Edited September 21, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Earbrass' post='604445' date='Sep 21 2009, 12:52 PM']<Pedant alert> That should be '[b]harmonia[/b]', rather than '[b]armonia[/b]' if you want an accurate transliteration, as the breathing on the alpha is rough, not smooth. </Pedant alert>[/quote] I love pedantry. Let's have some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='604951' date='Sep 21 2009, 08:45 PM']I love pedantry. Let's have some more.[/quote] See my later edit in my last post - I wasn't going to bother, but hey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='leftybassman392' post='605114' date='Sep 21 2009, 10:43 PM']See my later edit in my last post - I wasn't going to bother, but hey! [/quote] Ah, nicely done. A modern English h is sounded at the rear of the mouth cavity (there's a technical term for this but I can't recall what it is) but an ancient Greek rough breathing would come from nearer the front of the mouth behind the upper front teeth with some tongue use, I think. Even the modern Greeks have dropped it. I used to have a Greek girlfriend and her mother used to say 'Bloody English, they put an h on everything'. Her name was Eleni but people kept calling her Heleni. Of course, I could be talking nonsense. Edited September 21, 2009 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Just to let folks know that after an extended break owing to a bout of Swine Flu the next article in the series, dealing with Scales and Intervals in more detail, is in preparation and should be posted within the next few days. Current plan is to have it available on Wednesday but it may depend on how quickly my current backlog of work unravels itself. If you want something to do in the meantime you will find it useful to mug up on your ratios and fractions a bit. Scales and intervals for the Greeks was all about ratios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 The latest article in the series, putting some flesh on the bones of our earlier work on scales, is now available in the pinned thread - apologies for the delay, but those of who have been following this series will I'm sure know the reasons why. An appendix article will appear covering the mathematical issues raised by this article. It will be fairly technical in nature, and those who don't read will still get what they need from the main article. It's purpose is to try to get a historical perspective on the various methods that have been used to derive musical intervals. The next main article will look at melody - probably the most elusive aspect of the whole subject! Timescale is a bit hard to say as I'm still catching up on other stuff that got put on hold while I was ill. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) The appendix to Installment 4, dealing with some mathematical issues in relation to that article, is now available in the pinned thread. Edited October 4, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyke Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I've started reading through it, finished college late today and its a big change from lifting stuff in Tech. The way you've intertwined music theory with one of my greatest interests has actually made me respect theory a lot more than I did already. I'm not the quickest, best or smartest learner, compared to some people here I know next to nothing and hopefully in a few years I can fully comprehend and apply what I've read here to my playing and writing. I've moslty been an Ancient Egypt fanboy most my life but studying Archaeology opened up Mesopotamia and Greece to me and finding your article there is a jackpot goldmine. It'll take me a while and a lot of re reading to fully understand and contribute somehow but for now I just think that its an incredible thing. Hopefully I'll understand better when I learn more theory as time marches on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 After an unexpectedly long delay caused by a series of events that I won't bore you with, the next article in the series, on the difficult topic of melody, is now available in the pinned thread. Enjoy! We're now getting towards the end of this initial series of articles - there'll be one at some point soon covering the fascinating history of the instruments of the period, but if it's ok with everybody I could do with a bit of a break after that. I'm in the fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on your perspective!) position at the moment of having lots of calls on my time (and if plans now in development reach fruition then I'm going to be busier still!) Longer term I will be able to pursue some of these topics in more depth for the benefit of the terminally curious. I'd also like to explore some extensions of this stuff in various directions - such as the relationship between the development of Greek music and it's development in other parts of the world at about the same time (Indian, Persian, Arabic spring to mind...), and also to fill in some of the gaps between what the Greeks achieved and what we have today. Suggestions on this thread or a PM please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNkShUi Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 just found this, and the main sticky thread. love it! thanks for taking the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 [quote name='FuNkShUi' post='646409' date='Nov 5 2009, 04:43 PM']just found this, and the main sticky thread. love it! thanks for taking the time! [/quote] No worries. Thanks for getting in touch. It's hard work but good fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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