Lined fretless intonation

[BottomEndian]

So, all you lined fretless players: where do you put your fingers?

I've been quite enamoured with [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation3.html"]the Gary Willis method of setting up intonation[/url] so you're in tune if your finger is just behind the line (roughly the same position you'd put your finger on a fretted board), and that's how I've set up my fretlesses. It means your muscle memory doesn't need to change when you switch from fretted to fretless.

However, it's pretty obvious that basses aren't generally [b]designed [/b]to be set up like that -- I'm quite often right at the end of the screw travel for the saddles. Also, if I were to get an unlined fretless (and I'd like to, just for the look of it ), it'd be harder to set up the intonation in the same way, and I think you'd naturally aim to be bang on the side dots. So I might switch back to being bang on the line.

So I'm just wondering what everyone else does, and what your general thoughts are on the subject.

And if there are any crazy people who set it up to be in tune [b]above[/b] the line... well, why? Tell all...

[xilddx]

I don't play lined. On an unlined I intonate as close as possible to the side dots at the 24th. You can't see where you fingertips are relative to the dots anyway when you're playing.

Playing fretless is all about feeling and hearing so just set it up properly and stay that way so your brain gets used to the finger spacings and motion required.

All in all, you're probably best off taking playing and intonating tips from classical players like string bassists and cellists.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='silddx' post='589675' date='Sep 4 2009, 01:59 PM']Playing fretless is all about feeling and hearing so just set it up properly and stay that way so your brain gets used to the finger spacings and motion required.

All in all, you're probably best off taking playing and intonating tips from classical players like string bassists and cellists.[/quote]
Absolutely. I played the violin for years as a kid, so my intonation's pretty instinctive and I don't find fretless too much of a headf***. After all, violin's a 12.8-inch-scale fretless instrument, so there's very little room for bad finger placement.

It's really a question of whether I'll shoot myself in the foot by setting it up to be behind the line, in terms of occasional use of other people's instruments (hey! why do I sound flat?) or the transition to unlined.

[lemmywinks]

I always used to set it up on the line when i played a lined bass. I remember an interview with Jaco where he said he always used to fret right on the fret anyway, so his transition to fretless was instant. I've always fretted right on the wire or a little behind it since reading that, unless i'm playing a stretchy chord!

[The Bass Doc]

Some advice I received a while ago suggested setting the strings (top two in particular) slightly flat as in bridge saddles further back and aiming to play on the line. The thickness of one's finger then allows you to sound either spot-on or if you're sver so slighly flat you can 'roll' into it and sound like you meant it. Striking a string sharp gives you 'nowhere to go' (except the exit door when the auditioner shouts 'Next'!)

Edited September 4, 2009 by The Bass Doc

[Rumple]

Interesting question, I now have a lined fretless having only played unlined fretless or fretted basses in the past and always go for the lines or the dots but I can see the advantage of setting the intonation slightly behind the line especially if you often swop from fretted to fretless, once again I guess it's whatever works best for you. I'll stick with on the lines


R.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Rumple

[velvetkevorkian]

I don't bother. I just set the strings to my preferred height and try and use my ears.
I did start on DB originally so perhaps my attitude is coloured by that.

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='589686' date='Sep 4 2009, 02:20 PM']Some advice I received a while ago suggested setting the strings (top two in particular) slightly flat as in bridge saddles further back and aiming to play on the line. The thickness of one's finger then allows you to sound either spot-on or if you're sver so slighly flat you can 'roll' into it and sound like you meant it. Striking a string sharp gives you 'nowhere to go' (except the exit door when the auditioner shouts 'Next'!)[/quote]
Now that is bloody good advice! Thank you Doc.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='589629' date='Sep 4 2009, 01:21 PM']So, all you lined fretless players: where do you put your fingers?

I've been quite enamoured with [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation3.html"]the Gary Willis method of setting up intonation[/url] so you're in tune if your finger is just behind the line (roughly the same position you'd put your finger on a fretted board), and that's how I've set up my fretlesses. It means your muscle memory doesn't need to change when you switch from fretted to fretless.

However, it's pretty obvious that basses aren't generally [b]designed [/b]to be set up like that -- I'm quite often right at the end of the screw travel for the saddles. Also, if I were to get an unlined fretless (and I'd like to, just for the look of it ), it'd be harder to set up the intonation in the same way, and I think you'd naturally aim to be bang on the side dots. So I might switch back to being bang on the line.

So I'm just wondering what everyone else does, and what your general thoughts are on the subject.

And if there are any crazy people who set it up to be in tune [b]above[/b] the line... well, why? Tell all...[/quote]
But where your finger goes for correct intonation will vary depending on where on the neck you are. For example, it will be different at the first fretline than the thirteenth fretline.

[RhysP]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='589827' date='Sep 4 2009, 04:33 PM']But where your finger goes for correct intonation will vary depending on where on the neck you are. For example, it will be different at the first fretline than the thirteenth fretline.[/quote]
Exactly.
It doesn't matter whether you set the intonation behind, on or in front of the line, as you move up the neck the point of correct intonation will move.

[BB3000S]

Never gave it much thought, but my fretless is setup so that up my fingers sit just behind the lines. Made sense to me as the string is more or less dampened by the whole of your fingertip, so the string vibrations basically start at the lines. So, virtually the same fingering as I use on my fretted basses, and a pretty smooth transition to fretless.

[The Bass Doc]

[quote name='RhysP' post='589993' date='Sep 4 2009, 06:28 PM']Exactly.
It doesn't matter whether you set the intonation behind, on or in front of the line, as you move up the neck the point of correct intonation will move.[/quote]

I've absolutely no need to doubt you but would you mind explaining why this should be.

I've been playing unlined fretless on and off since the late 70s - there are the occasional dots in the side and I've just checked they are in exactly the place a fret would be and I can't say I've had any problem with intonation.

I'm simply interested in what the explanation (in terms of physics) is that when frets are removed the point changes.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='590040' date='Sep 4 2009, 07:12 PM']I've absolutely no need to doubt you but would you mind explaining why this should be.

I've been playing unlined fretless on and off since the late 70s - there are the occasional dots in the side and I've just checked they are in exactly the place a fret would be and I can't say I've had any problem with intonation.

I'm simply interested in what the explanation (in terms of physics) is that when frets are removed the point changes.[/quote]
I don't know the physics of it but to my ear that's how it works and [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html"]Gary Willis agrees[/url].

[Pentode]

I've the intonation set [u]on[/u] the side dots of the unlined boards of my fretlessessess - just seemed the logical way to go.

FWIW I used to find fretless basses with lined boards really difficult to play as I found the lines distracting. I had a Squier VM Fretless Jazz and ended up 'colouring in' the lines with a marker pen....

[EssentialTension]

So, if Gary Willis and I are correct - this poll is spurious.

The line is merely a clue, your ear is what matters.

Edited September 4, 2009 by EssentialTension

[BottomEndian]

OK, just to test this "intonation changes as you move up the board" idea, I've just spent 45 minutes setting up my fretless EBMM SR5 to intonate bang on the lines, to the highest accuracy I can muster with the Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-200 (which is ±a gnat's sperm -- something silly like 0.02 cents). I set it up so that 12th-fretline harmonic = 12th-fretline fingered with the middle of my finger on the line. I've then checked up and down the neck to see how the intonation is at the low and high ends. It's as spot-on as I can measure. No intonation drift at all. If the middle of my finger's on a line, it's in tune. No questions asked.

It's surely just a matter of how accurately the lines are positioned in the board? My SR5's a bit of a freak-job: the original pau ferro board's been replaced with a polyester-coated ebony board with maple lines, and I'm pretty sure the new board was handmade to high standards. The maker might have taken the time and effort to position the lines so the intonation's spot-on, rather than just copying the lines from standard fret positions.

If I get the chance over the weekend, I'll try the same thing with my Squier. That could be a whole different kettle of apes. Or not. And then the can's open, worms everywhere...

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly with the general sentiment that the lines and dots are merely guides. Ears, ears, ears. It's just that this whole intonation thing is getting interesting now.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='590227' date='Sep 4 2009, 10:59 PM']OK, just to test this "intonation changes as you move up the board" idea, I've just spent 45 minutes setting up my fretless EBMM SR5 to intonate bang on the lines, to the highest accuracy I can muster with the Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-200 (which is ±a gnat's sperm -- something silly like 0.02 cents). I set it up so that 12th-fretline harmonic = 12th-fretline fingered with the middle of my finger on the line. I've then checked up and down the neck to see how the intonation is at the low and high ends. It's as spot-on as I can measure. No intonation drift at all. If the middle of my finger's on a line, it's in tune. No questions asked.

It's surely just a matter of how accurately the lines are positioned in the board? My SR5's a bit of a freak-job: the original pau ferro board's been replaced with a polyester-coated ebony board with maple lines, and I'm pretty sure the new board was handmade to high standards. The maker might have taken the time and effort to position the lines so the intonation's spot-on, rather than just copying the lines from standard fret positions.

If I get the chance over the weekend, I'll try the same thing with my Squier. That could be a whole different kettle of apes. Or not. And then the can's open, worms everywhere...

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly with the general sentiment that the lines and dots are merely guides. Ears, ears, ears. It's just that this whole intonation thing is getting interesting now.[/quote]
Well, as I said, I don't know the physics of it and I'm playing an unlined fretless now but my experience on a lined fretless Jazz was that my finger's relationship to the line varied up and down the neck. Which it seems to me is what Gary Willis is saying on the website you posted. However, I don't dispute your experience with your bass.

[Marvin]

I used to have a Hohner B2A (Steinberger copy), over 10 years ago, that the previous person had defretted. Having read this thread I realise that I was playing it completely wrong. No wonder I sounded dreadful.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='RichB' post='590361' date='Sep 5 2009, 06:02 AM']I used to have a Hohner B2A (Steinberger copy), over 10 years ago, that the previous person had defretted. Having read this thread I realise that I was playing it completely wrong. No wonder I sounded dreadful. [/quote]
How were you playing it?

[EssentialTension]

This is what the Gary Willis intonation guide says:

[quote]It's important to realize that to play in tune on a fretless you have to adjust your finger placement depending on which part of the neck you'r playing. It's common for people to set fretless intonation so that a note is in tune when the line is directly in the middle of the finger. If this is done for the 12th fret, it forces you to play very sharp (past the line) in the lower registers.[/quote]
There are pics as well on [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html"]this page[/url].

Can anyone give any further info on this?

[Marvin]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='590434' date='Sep 5 2009, 10:10 AM']How were you playing it?[/quote]
Wasn't placing my fingers on the frettless board in the right place so the intonation was always slightly out. What it was to be youthful and ignorant.

[mrcrow]

the line is definative...frets are set so that you dont have to crush them to a pulp to get the intonation

on the line...the money is yours

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='590227' date='Sep 4 2009, 10:59 PM']If I get the chance over the weekend, I'll try the same thing with my Squier. That could be a whole different kettle of apes. Or not. And then the can's open, worms everywhere... [/quote]
OK, in case anyone's interested, I've just got the chance to sit down with the Squier and do this. Similar report to the SR5: on the line = pretty much in tune, up to around the 15th "fret", at which point it goes apes**t-doolally and starts drifting like a drifty thing. By the time I reach the final line (20th "fret"), I'm having to place my finger well [b]beyond[/b] the line (i.e. more towards the bridge) to be in tune. It's also interesting (to me at least ) to note that some of the lower lines are a tiny bit off: say, for example, the 5th fretline might be in tune, the 6th might be a touch sharp, and the 7th back in tune again, across all the strings.

I don't know what any of this means, but I'll say one good thing about intonating so you're bang on the line: the harmonics also fall directly over the lines, rather than slightly behind them. Makes them a lot easier to hit!

[supabock]

For me, i wanted a lined fretless pretty much as an initial guide, and now i have been playing a lined frettless for almost 10 years i dont really pay much attention to where i am as opposed to how the note is sounding in the context of a track or against some backing. If to answer the question the correct intonation for my bass is pretty much bang on the line across the board, but i rely more on my ears these days to tell me if i'm bang on, if that makes sense