Why buy an expensive bass?

[4000]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='596356' date='Sep 12 2009, 09:49 AM']The previous comments about production methods are very true indeed. At the end of the day it's not down to the price. I was recently at the Gallery where a 'lowly' Squier Classic Vibe jazz bass blew away all of the Sadowsky basses I tried out. At the end of the day it's down to what fits you, as opposed to the price.[/quote]

So true. I love owning really nice basses, I love exotics, but it's ultimately down to what does the job. I had a similar experience in the Gallery with an Ibanez SR606, which I preferred to all but a couple of the boutiques in there.

Edited September 12, 2009 by 4000

[XB26354]

Funny, I've almost always had the opposite experience. I've almost always found more expensive instruments to be better (and most of the time before I knew how much they cost). I've played all the Fenders in the Gallery and funnily enough the nicest-feeling one is the custom shop jazz - to me it's just got the right tone. As for 6-strings, there is an MTD and a Ken Smith, both £2K+. There is nothing else I've tried to touch them for variability in tone, build quality and feel. It may be that some of you that purchased less expensive instruments got lucky and got a very well-made one - I've certainly tried a lot of dogs even up to £600-£700+.

I've owned a number of cheaper instruments in my time, from a Chinese Squier that cost £90, through to a MIM P-bass for just under £300. They served a purpose but ultimately I moved them on because I felt limited about how much I could express myself playing bass - not a hundred notes a second, often just one note. Of all the basses I've owned (and that's been most of the big makes, and several of each of the biggest makes), the highest price basses were generally the best.

I must agree that the quality of budget instruments has increased a lot in the last 20 years. When I started playing £200-£300 would generally buy a pretty crap bass. Nowadays sub-£300 basses are good enough to gig and record with. I guess that as I improved as a player and played gigs in more varied situations and styles I found the shortcomings exposed with cheaper basses.

Expensive is also a relative term - for a working professional who needs a versatile, ultra-reliable bass (or someone wealthy), £1000 is hardly a breaking the bank. For a beginner it's a big outlay as you may not even like it.

[Muriel]

I have a Westfield VBS4A which is my first bass, and I find there are no problems with it, I love the small body on it, it feels fairly well made and there's nothing wrong with the sound. It is perfect for what I'm doing at the moment. The price tag was stunning for what it is at just over £100.
However I can see why people would spend more money - better quality of sound, brilliant materials, better build. All of these factors can contribute in a live or recording situation dramatically making the overall sound of your band professional and generally more pleasant to the trained ear.

[supabock]

I spent years, moving from one bass to another until i found what was comfortable for me, and that is where i have settled and yes, its an expensive one. It feels good, fits my playing and moreover feels comfortable or part of me when i hold it and play. Having said that, i do know of some top pro players who have cheaper basses and mod them to their requirements. I guess the feel and fit are right for them but a few tweaks here and there are needed with the sound.

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='596457' date='Sep 12 2009, 11:59 AM']Pah, you speaking from experience, all you've got is 65 basses [/quote]

I know!

Hehehe!

Seriously, reliability and consistency are the by words for the working player. Cheaper instruments for example, may have machine heads that slip etc so buying a more expensive instrument will normally (not always!) give you better quality hardware for example, that will stand up to the rigours of the live gig/show/cabaret environs where you can't afford to have a bass fail in a very important aspect of performance. I took a Crafter Jazz into the theatre once; ok it was a rehearsal not an actual show, sounded great but it went out of tune after two pieces of music - it was like NEXT BASS please!!! You do get what you pay for of course!

[EdwardMarlowe]

The thing with basses, as with most consumer durables, is that the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard, and early. The average Squier is a fair bit better than the very cheapest plywood no-name. A MIM Fender will be a little better, while the US equivalent will usually take it up a notch again.... after that, there are the boutique options. With each off these steps the price goes up and up, but as it does so, the level of improvement diminishes as room for improvement gets less. A US P Bass, for example, is typically twice the price of the MIM equivalent..... but it won't be twice the bass. I'm fond of saying elsewhere that a Gibson LP Standard is twice the guitar compared to my Epiphone - twice the guitar, at five times the price. Whether it is worth that extra will alays come down to the individual, not least as for most of us price will always be part of the consideration.

I do get the impression also that a lot depends on individual taste. I like 4 string P basses.... not much fussed on anything else, and (as with guitars) I actively [i]loathe[/i] fancy woods, figured tops, etc. I don't care for active electronics. This all means that the kind of bass that I like tends to be cheaper than someone who liked the sort of design spec you get with, say, a Goodfellow. For me, I tend to find the best value lies usually in the mid-price point, though I typically have to pay more, being a lefty. Wanting a maple boarded P Bass means that, unless I order from Japan, I am (somewhat ironically) gonig to end up going non-Fender.... individual taste will always vary, but if I have to go expensive, I'd rather a custoom for a grand than paying well over that for one of the Fender US models that fits my requirements.

Someone mentioned Danos above - like Squier, they're a range that have lost out on several sales to me over the past couple of years due to their failure to offer even a single lefty model. Squier are improving - I don't want the VM Jazz, but hoping that it heralds more lefty models, as I'd love one of the CV 50s models.




[quote name='rjb' post='595439' date='Sep 11 2009, 10:02 AM']Having said that you can get a real bargain if you keep your eye out. A friend of mine got an old Fender MIM for £100 from Crack Converters and its a total peach for the money![/quote]

Jinkies, that's impressive - all I ever see in those places are absolute bottom-end cheapies marked for sale at £10 under the new price.

[Major-Minor]

The only things that should matter when making an instrument purchase are:
1. Whether the bass makes the kind of sound (or range of sounds) that you like and are comfortable with, and
2. Whether the bass feels good under the fingers and is physically good to play.

The cost is almost irrelevant (!). If you have the funds available for the instrument that best suits your needs, then this is the bass to purchase.

Lets face it, electric instruments today are incredibly cheap. The most expensive I've seen are still only 3 to 4 K. In the wider world of music, this is negligible for something that is the tool of your trade (and its tax de-dodge-able anyway !)
My double basses are worth 25 K plus (each) and thats still chicken feed compared to some that I've played.

My current weapon of choice is a Yamaha TRB1005 which was incredibly cheap (£550) and I like it a lot. But I know that there are other instruments that I will like even more.
I recently tried a Lakland 5 string (£900 second hand) and an Overwater 5 string (£1000 second hand), both of which I felt were an improvement on the Yamaha, although i didn't like the Lakland's 22 frets - I'm used to 24 on the Yamaha - and the Overwater had no position dots on the fingerboard - again something I'm used to.

But I never make impulse buys. I always make several visits to an instrument before convincing myself that its the one for me. This is because I made a rushed decision some years ago to buy a Status 5 string (£1200) only to find it really wasn't "me ".

You can only play on one instrument at a time, and it helps to really know that bass thoroughly. I really don't see the point in having lots of basses that you hardly ever play - unless you are just a collector for collecting's sake.

The Major

[Doddy]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='596271' date='Sep 12 2009, 02:44 AM']Lastly, I think we'd all love to have a perfect sounding bass but something I've noticed is (and this excludes vintage priced basses) as the value increases the craftsmanship and sound quality of a bass increases too but as the clarity of sound is achieved the less you can get away with regarding sloppy technique. As your technique improves you reach a point where your playing allows you to go to the next level of instrument - because that instrument allows you to be more expressive. So again you gravitate to your desired point along the curve, this time governed by skill level rather than the thickness of your wallet.

Although there is the school of thought that says that if you play instruments that are beyond your ability then it forces you to get better so as not to sound like a twat.
Isn't there some sort of business idiom that states that when people get promoted they are always promoted to one position above their ability but one day you stop getting promoted - at which point everything is run by incompetents.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you here.
The instrument that you play has nothing to do with your ability or expression as a player.
You can be playing blues badly in a grotty pub on a Fodera,does it mean you are a good player? No,it means you can afford
a Fodera.
If you are looking at the instrument to improve your playing,I'm sorry,but you have a warped view towards music.
The technique,the expression,and most of all the music, comes firstly from the player.

[mrcrow]

[quote name='Moos3h' post='595422' date='Sep 11 2009, 09:45 AM']I'll start with the disclaimer that this is just my own opinion here, but:

I have just 'obtained' Westfield P-Bass copy. I've set it up, re-wired it, have a GFS pickup on order and replaced the bridge. All of the upgrades cost a total of £50 inclusive of delivery. These basses are £110 new.

So, the bass is made from cheese, possibly MDF or similar.

But it sounds fantastic! It's got all the clarity, weight and guts of 'the real thing' and I've been able to directly compare between this and a USA P-Bass. Stays in tune, nothing falls off (but if it did, it'd be a cheap fix).

So really, assuming you are someone who likes to tinker and customise a bit, how could it ever be justifed to go and spend £1k+ on summat 'posh', when you could pick up a couple of these and not worry in the slightest about the odd knock here and there?

Right, off you go Internet, argue!

Cheers,
James[/quote]


bet all the rock bands will switch to these and start endorsing them...nudge nudge

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Doddy' post='597585' date='Sep 13 2009, 07:06 PM']I have to disagree with you here.
The instrument that you play has nothing to do with your ability or expression as a player.
You can be playing blues badly in a grotty pub on a Fodera,does it mean you are a good player? No,it means you can afford
a Fodera.
If you are looking at the instrument to improve your playing,I'm sorry,but you have a warped view towards music.
The technique,the expression,and most of all the music, comes firstly from the player.[/quote]
You are not disagreeing with me. Chill out.

[Jobiebass]

I like expensive basses because people automaically think I can use them well... Not the case.
Dont ask me why I have a 610 speaker cab either, its used 95% of the time in the house and im not in a gigging band.

I just like nice things.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='597585' date='Sep 13 2009, 07:06 PM']I have to disagree with you here.
The instrument that you play has nothing to do with your ability or expression as a player.
You can be playing blues badly in a grotty pub on a Fodera,does it mean you are a good player? No,it means you can afford
a Fodera.
If you are looking at the instrument to improve your playing,I'm sorry,but you have a warped view towards music.
The technique,the expression,and most of all the music, comes firstly from the player.[/quote]
I think what he was getting at was that if you buy an expensive bass, you push yourself to get the most out of it- not that it confers some magical advantage.

There is a steep law of diminishing returns with electric instruments- I doubt I could bring myself to pay full whack for a Sadowsky, for example, although they're great basses, because I have basses that cost 1/20th as much but can do probably 90%+ of the same job.

I've found investing my time in learning to set up my own instruments properly a better investment than going through progressively more expensive instruments.

[doctor_of_the_bass]

Peeple!!!

I think the bottom line is that we are all different, thank the Cosmos! Each player has their own view and again, thats what makes life interesting! Speaking as someone who realistically has more basses than most music stores, my collection reflects the fact that A. I have a tiny thingy* and B. I'm completely fascinated by basses (both cheap and boutique) and have been for 27 or so years. Having made playing my profession also helps me to justify said purchases (actually, its the voices that make me do it - and of course, the basses talk to me `buy me daddy, please buy me - don't leave me' !!! Please keep chilled and let the discussion continue!


* bank account!

Nick

[BassBus]

[quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='597717' date='Sep 13 2009, 09:29 PM'](actually, its the voices that make me do it - and of course, the basses talk to me `buy me daddy, please buy me - don't leave me' !!!


* bank account!

Nick[/quote]
Oh, thank god I'm not alone.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='597696' date='Sep 13 2009, 09:12 PM']I think what he was getting at was that if you buy an expensive bass, you push yourself to get the most out of it- not that it confers some magical advantage.[/quote]
Thank you

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='597696' date='Sep 13 2009, 09:12 PM']I've found investing my time in learning to set up my own instruments properly a better investment than going through progressively more expensive instruments.[/quote]
a big +1 to that too.

[tertiumquid]

Hey dude,
You are quite right about the Westfields, they do a crude blonde Thumb Bass copy and it's probably the best bass that I have played under a grand and you can get them for just over £100...

If you all don't agree you can lick my salty balls...!...

[AndyTravis]

It's the same question as..."why drive a Mercedes, when you can drive a Lada."

It isn't the same journey.

I used to buy cheap basses, and sell cheap basses to get to the next cheap bass.

Eventually (2000 - Warwick Corvette) meant i had stopped buying cheap, sh*tty basses.

If you work full time, and earn your keep, treat yourself. If you're a decent player, and you go gigging, why not have a nice bass or two.

A more relevant question would be..why wear a Rolex when a Timex tells the exact same time, or why use a Mont Blanc when a Bic works just fine?

If you aren't a pro, then you're a hobbyist, if you have the spare money or if you don't, get what you want.

Spend whatever you want on gear, if you can justify it. If not, then just enjoy your apparently amazing Westfield.

PS. I did a set up on a mates JB1000 Westfield Jazz Bass Copy and it was a FANTASTIC £130 bass.
PPS. I do not own a Merc.

Edited September 13, 2009 by AndyTravis

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='tertiumquid' post='597878' date='Sep 14 2009, 12:27 AM']Hey dude,
You are quite right about the Westfields, they do a crude blonde Thumb Bass copy and it's probably the best bass that I have played under a grand and you can get them for just over £100...

If you all don't agree you can lick my salty balls...!...[/quote]
You just reminded me...

[GremlinAndy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='597585' date='Sep 13 2009, 07:06 PM']I have to disagree with you here.
The instrument that you play has nothing to do with your ability or expression as a player.
You can be playing blues badly in a grotty pub on a Fodera,does it mean you are a good player? No,it means you can afford
a Fodera.
If you are looking at the instrument to improve your playing,I'm sorry,but you have a warped view towards music.
The technique,the expression,and most of all the music, comes firstly from the player.[/quote]



You seem to be saying that a person of *any* ability will sound *exactly* the same regardless of the bass they use. No-one is trying to claim that a bad player will suddenly sound better than a good player if they have the right bass. (That's just a daft misrepresentation of the discussion)

But it is most certainly true that a better bass will make the same player better able to use the techniques and expression you mention. Unless you're suggesting that Stradivarius Violins are just a bad case of one-up-manship?

Don't worry, I'm not really suggesting you're saying that, I'm just showing that misrepresenting a discussion isn't altogether constructive.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Doddy' post='597585' date='Sep 13 2009, 07:06 PM']The technique,the expression,and most of all the music, comes firstly from the player.[/quote]
I agree with 'comes firstly from the player' but I'd add not only from the player.

Edited September 14, 2009 by EssentialTension

[Doddy]

[quote name='GremlinAndy' post='598748' date='Sep 14 2009, 09:50 PM']You seem to be saying that a person of *any* ability will sound *exactly* the same regardless of the bass they use. No-one is trying to claim that a bad player will suddenly sound better than a good player if they have the right bass. (That's just a daft misrepresentation of the discussion)

But it is most certainly true that a better bass will make the same player better able to use the techniques and expression you mention. Unless you're suggesting that Stradivarius Violins are just a bad case of one-up-manship?

Don't worry, I'm not really suggesting you're saying that, I'm just showing that misrepresenting a discussion isn't altogether constructive.[/quote]


A Better Bass won't make the player 'better able to use the techniques and expression'. A better Instrument can give you the
inspiration to play and practice,but it won't make you more able to express yourself.That comes from the person, not an inanimate
piece of wood.
To continue the Violin analogy, if you gave an average player a Stradavarius,the player would play it in the same way as they would
on their own instrument,they may be more inspired,but that will be all. Give a Virtuoso an average instrument and they will still play better than an average player on a great instrument.

I wasn't misrepresenting the discussion, I was refering to this quote....

"As your technique improves you reach a point where your playing allows you to go to the next level of instrument - because that instrument allows you to be more expressive. So again you gravitate to your desired point along the curve, this time governed by skill level rather than the thickness of your wallet.

Although there is the school of thought that says that if you play instruments that are beyond your ability then it forces you to get better so as not to sound like a twat."

Your Instrument has no bearing on your skill level whatsoever,and buying a nice instrument will not force you to improve your abilities.

As I have said before, I own about 20 Basses,some cheap,some expensive, but I can play all of them comfortably. While the 'boutique' basses
are undoubtedly better quality and more 'fun' to play ,if I wanted to I could do anything on the less expensive basses.

[chris_b]

You ask, "Why buy an expensive bass?", and then add "Seriously....why bother?” I guess it's difficult to understand why some one can want to drive a Ferrari when you're happy with an Escort.

[Kev]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='596444' date='Sep 12 2009, 11:44 AM']It's not about price, but about finding the right instrument for you.[/quote]
The comment that should end all arguments. If the bass you picked up in the shop played and sounded better than any other in there, why should the price or brand effect your decision to buy it?

I think the biggest problem is people thinking they have £1000 or w/e to spend on a bass, and so they must spend as much of it as possible. Many of said people never pick up a bass under £200 in the shop with this in mind. And also, i feel that the fact that you [i]want[/i] the 'better' bass to play and sound better, it could overpower what the actual reality is

All my opinion, of course.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Kev

[7string]

Yup, good point.

When I bought my Jackson bass I had a choice between the quilt maple one with EMGs and the lacewood one with a ding in it and weird active pickups and a passive tone. I bought the lacewood one as it sounded better. The quilt one looked fantastic though.

I don't think there's ever a stop in the journey of a bass player. I started out on a 4, then got into a 6, then a 7. Others might go from a 4 to a 5 as it's needed for a new band or go fretless or tune the bass differently. Gear gets changed and what price it is doesn't really matter. If it sounds cool to you, looks cool to you and is what you can afford then go for it.

Edited September 15, 2009 by 7string

[GremlinAndy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='598788' date='Sep 14 2009, 10:27 PM']A Better Bass won't make the player 'better able to use the techniques and expression'. A better Instrument can give you the
inspiration to play and practice,but it won't make you more able to express yourself.That comes from the person, not an inanimate
piece of wood.
To continue the Violin analogy, if you gave an average player a Stradavarius,the player would play it in the same way as they would
on their own instrument,they may be more inspired,but that will be all. Give a Virtuoso an average instrument and they will still play better than an average player on a great instrument.

I wasn't misrepresenting the discussion, I was refering to this quote....

"As your technique improves you reach a point where your playing allows you to go to the next level of instrument - because that instrument allows you to be more expressive. So again you gravitate to your desired point along the curve, this time governed by skill level rather than the thickness of your wallet.

Although there is the school of thought that says that if you play instruments that are beyond your ability then it forces you to get better so as not to sound like a twat."

Your Instrument has no bearing on your skill level whatsoever,and buying a nice instrument will not force you to improve your abilities.

As I have said before, I own about 20 Basses,some cheap,some expensive, but I can play all of them comfortably. While the 'boutique' basses
are undoubtedly better quality and more 'fun' to play ,if I wanted to I could do anything on the less expensive basses.[/quote]


lol you make me larf

you KEEP on using a dissimilar argument *even* after I SPECIFICALLY rule it out. "Give a Virtuoso an average instrument and they will still play better than an average player on a great instrument." Fercrissakes... no ones arguing this. It's preposterous to think ANYONE is saying that a better bass will make a crap player into a virtuoso...
RE-READ the original post and digest it, and you'll see this is my EXACT point. given the *SAME* player, that player is UNDESPUTEDLY served better by a better instrument. To continue your argument is ...I dunno, so irrelevant that it staggers me.
We all know that a more expensive bass doesn't make the player. That almost goes without saying. (But, obviously, not completely)

funny.

flame on...

Edited September 15, 2009 by GremlinAndy