Tonewood

[soopercrip]

...where it comes in with regard to influencing the sound produced. (guess this has been asked a few times before but help me out here please guys)
So the string is suspended in the magnetic field of the pickup, between the nut, which can be of various materials, and the saddle, which is metal.
If you finger a note, the string is suspended between the metal fret and the saddle.
The vibration of the string creates a signal that passes to the amp through the wiring.
So at no point is this touched in anyway by the wood (unless it's fretless and then it only touches the fingerboard).
Therefore, if you have a good quality pickup, fretwire and bridge saddle, with high quality wire for the signal to pass through to the amp (and some talent)
surely the woods used are purely aesthetic?
If this is wrong, then why? How does the wood influence the tone?
What makes it influence the signal, or should I just use MDF on my next project and use best quality hardware with a good amp and speakers?

...and prove it to me please

Andy

[Wil]

The frets and bridge are anchored in the wood. The vibration from the string passes through into the wood and this in turn feeds back and affects the vibration of the string. I think.

[nobodysprefect]

And then you have to realise that as the string vibrates it 'pulls' on the bridge and the neck, causing the hinge also known as the neck joint to flex. Physicists would use different terms, of course. This neck joint hinge is a damper, and it creates the envelope of the attack that Fender basses were the first widely-used electric basses to have.

Set-necks and to an even greater extent neck-throughs have a different envelope because of this. Coming from my Spector, the Fbass with it's ash body and all maple neck and single coils was ATTACK MODE ON!

[Hamster]

The string vibrates, which makes the wood vibrate, which affects how long the string sustains for, and the density of the vibrating wood cuts or enhances certain frequencies. You won't hear it much on an active bass with a lot of boost, but should really hear the difference the wood makes on a passive bass with a piezo pickup.

Without the wood vibrating and playing its part, would an upright bass work?

[Adrenochrome]

On most solid bodied electric basses the wood makes only a small contribution to the sound. The reasons it does are outlined in previous answers. Most basses sound largely like their strings and pickups with pup positioning playing a large contribution as well. With piezos it's different due to the way they see vibrations.

[cheddatom]

It might be an idea to try an MDF bass though and see how it sounds.

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='599043' date='Sep 15 2009, 12:56 PM']It might be an idea to try an MDF bass though and see how it sounds.[/quote]

Not enough stiffness, so the bass would sustain like a box of cardboard. Of course, for a long time, a very focused 'thud' was the standard to strive for! That's why Fenders used to have string dampers!

Having had a metric funkton of different high-grade basses, it is my opinion that the woods definitely have an effect. Part of it comes from stiffness: stiffer wood will have higher resonant frequency blah blah blah so it will sound brighter and have more sustain.

Comparing two basses of same model, say, two BN6 basses, the difference between maple and ebony fretboard will be obvious [i]if you listen to the tone with an accurate sound reproduction system.[/i] In a band context, most of the subtleties of tone are lost. Which is why I prefer trio setups, these days. More risk, more tonal space, more money.

[jakenewmanbass]

Hamster is alluding to the most obvious way of understanding this by referring to a double bass. If you slap a huge hunk of ebony (shaped into a fingerboard) onto a bass it has a massive effect on the quality of the note, the same is true of the ebony stringers that Alembic use in their neck thru design (you can choose various woods)
So when you say 'prove it', not being a physicist I would struggle to explain the science of 'how' but being both a double bass player and an Alembic player I can reliably inform that it 'does' through experience of double basses that have had ebony boards put on (formerly some less dense wood) and owning one and playing some other Alembic basses with a variety of neck woods.
There is of course an aesthetic element...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='599043' date='Sep 15 2009, 10:56 AM']It might be an idea to try an MDF bass though and see how it sounds.[/quote]
That'll be a Danelectro then.

[soopercrip]

[quote name='Hamster' post='599020' date='Sep 15 2009, 10:36 AM']The string vibrates, which makes the wood vibrate, which affects how long the string sustains for, and the density of the vibrating wood cuts or enhances certain frequencies. You won't hear it much on an active bass with a lot of boost, but should really hear the difference the wood makes on a passive bass with a piezo pickup.

Without the wood vibrating and playing its part, would an upright bass work? [/quote]

I understand with an acoustic based instrument like a double bass that the sound is down to the sound box and can be influenced by the type
of wood, what I struggle with understanding, is that the sound is 'electronically collected' , if you like, at the point (time) of picking, on an electric bass (active or passive), while the woods natural resonance I agree can affect the sustain, where (when) does it get the 'chance' to affect the tone, as the pickup instantly generates the signal.
Or do I just have to accept that 'it does' and I'm being a bit 'two short planks' here...

Andy

[alexclaber]

I've written about this numerous times but the gist of it is that you have two interacting systems - that which is the string and all the items that support and anchor it (nut/fret/fretboard/neck/joint/body/bridge) and that which is a broadband resonator (predominantly the body).

On striking the string you put kinetic and potential (spring) energy into it, and then this energy changes mode every cycle and flows into and out of the support structure and from that into and out of the resonator. The stiffness/self-damping/mass/hardness of all the components affect which frequencies are damped (and turned into heat), which are directly transmitted and which are absorbed and re-emitted (and in the process excite harmonics of themselves). Even with solid-bodied bass, much of the sound you hear when playing it unplugged is from the resonating body coupling with the air. The worst case scenario for tone is an overly flexible neck that absorbs tons of energy from the string and turns it into heat and fails to re-emit it plus a heavily damped body that does that same. Stiff neck and lively body and you're in the right starting place. One reason cheaper basses can sound poor is that the finish is so thickly applied that it totally kills any body resonance. Stripping the thick gloss black finish from my old Hohner Jack transformed the sound.

Pickup positioning has a huge effect upon how the sound of the bass is filtered but the sound starts with the instrument's acoustic nature. I'll be expounding on all of this at the SE Bass Bash if you want to know more...

Alex

[cytania]

The main vibrating wood is the neck, this is why Danelectro get away with Masonite. The body is in some ways a damper.

At the extremes a balsa wood bass would have next to no sound whilst one made of cast iron would sqeal forever. Most tonewoods tend to be in the happy middle zone. Alot of hoodoo is ascribed to them and some of it is quite illusory.

One big differential already mentioned is the rosewood board as opposed to the all maple neck, here glueing on the rosewood is stiffening/dampening the maple.

It's difficult to generalise on bolt-on vs neck thru as the quality/stiffness of each varies. So a well bolted bass could sound brighter than a poorly made neck-thru. Also manufacturers tend to compensate so if a neck jointing system is very bright they match it with a duller wood. Head spinning now, off to lie down../

Edited September 15, 2009 by cytania

[beerdragon]

I wonder If say somone like Lemmy who plays at a high volume would care or notice what his bass was made from, Plexiglas or whatever.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='soopercrip' post='599149' date='Sep 15 2009, 12:45 PM']is that the sound is 'electronically collected' , if you like, at the point (time) of picking, on an electric bass (active or passive), while the woods natural resonance I agree can affect the sustain, where (when) does it get the 'chance' to affect the tone, as the pickup instantly generates the signal.[/quote]

Think of the pickup as being like a microphone. If you've miked guitar amps in the studio you'll know that where you position the mic makes a big difference to the tone - closer to the centre of the speaker gives more highs, closer to the surround gives more lows. Just like with a pickup, moving it towards the neck gives more bottom, towards the bridge more top. But the sound is there whether there's a microphone/pickup present or not.

As soon as you pluck the string energy flows into and back from the instrument - the only part of the note where the instrument is not involved is the very very first bit of the attack, literally as your finger first touches the string - but as anyone that's slapped on a maple board vs rosewood board instrument will confirm, the wood/construction gets involved very early on in the note envelope.

Alex

[chris_b]

[quote name='soopercrip' post='599149' date='Sep 15 2009, 12:45 PM'].... what I struggle with understanding, is that the sound is 'electronically collected'....[/quote]
Acoustic instruments can have very different tonal qualities due to the wood, bracing, strings, manufacturing techniques and even down to the types of varnish used. An electric instrument (even a solid bodied bass) is an acoustic instrument that has electrics added so if the acoustic part works well the strings will vibrate with more tone and the electrics will pass this to the amp and speakers. There is good tone and no so good tone and which you choose is down to your personal view.

Have a look at the pinned MTD topics, where Michael Tobias explains woods and tone.

[Mr. Foxen]

Whatever wood you make it from it still sounds liek a bass, wood has a small effect to the sound produced, but a fairly large effect on the ssound of a bass, since the spectrum of sounds from different basses is very much more narrow that the spectrum of possible sounds.

Also consider if the body is vibrating, the pickup is also, and its the movement of the string in relation to the pickup that makes the sound, if the string is still and the pickup moves, sound will be made (like microphonic feedback).

[Musky]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='599083' date='Sep 15 2009, 11:40 AM']That'll be a Danelectro then. [/quote]

And the Gibson Sonex and Ibanez Talmans!

[dangerboy]

As someone who plays a thru-neck aluminium bass (and sometimes an all-aluminium hollowbody) I can assure you that materials make a big difference to sound. Pickups, string etc are more important, but there are certain sounds you'll never get without the right wood/metal.

[Randy_Marsh]

alexclaber will be right on this!

[TimR]

Lie your bass on your kitchen table. Pluck a string and see if the table amplifies the sound. If it does that is an indication that the table is picking up vibrations from somewhere. The only place it can pick them up from is the body of the bass as this is all that will be touching the table. If it didn't vibrate there would be no way the table top could vibrate.

The length of time (sustain) and the resonant pitch of the frequencies will depend on the density of the wood. If you need proof of this clamp big bits of wood to the body of the bass and see how that chnages the tone.

The pickups are embedded in the body and so will also vibrate.

Alex. Are you intending to use Power Point at any stage? I think a blackboard and chalk would be more suitable.

[soopercrip]

Thanks guys, I understand what you are saying and appreciate you taking the time
to explain it to my small brain, however I still get the impression that the wood contributes only
in a small way to the tone, and the priority when buying, or building, a bass is the hardware/electronics.
The woods have an importance when looking for a particular sound, but having read some threads where
in band situations the guy at the PA desk can destroy the sound you have struggled to create, does it have
that much importance? I don't gig so I can't comment on that.
But thanks (particularly Alex, I'm too far away for the SE bash mate but thanks anyway and I hope it goes great) to all for your input.
I get it now.
Andy

[alexclaber]

[quote name='soopercrip' post='599854' date='Sep 16 2009, 08:05 AM']...however I still get the impression that the wood contributes only
in a small way to the tone, and the priority when buying, or building, a bass is the hardware/electronics.[/quote]

No, you have to get the woods right. If the woods aren't good then then the electronics won't have a good source to pick up and amplify. Good woods/construction doesn't mean expensive though - just the right balance of stiffness and resonance in the relevant systems. Find a cheap bass that sounds great unplugged but rubbish plugged in and a pickup swap will make it great. But if you have a bass that sounds poor unplugged than no hardware or electronics changes will save it.

Alex

[cytania]

Hi Andy I get the impression you're bass buying at present or considering an upgrade path? You're trying to break down a bass into cost options.

OK one thing to be clear on is that a maple topped bass with a 'superb 3D flame' won't sound different from a maple topped bass that is just 'nice'. Some things are cosmetic, however...

No manufacturer picks crazy materials for a neck most are made of maple or similar woods. A cheap bass may have used a decent piece of maple but the frets won't have been done so well, the neck won't be shaped well (might suit your hand though), the finish may be horrible and sticky/glossy, the fret ends may be sharp. These make a big difference to tone because our human hands are playing that neck and ouch, wearing fret-ends smooth yourself is annoying.

More of the same... maple necks feel hard to play and you can tell they are more harsh/zingy (I like mine) whilst rosewood is warm/fuzzy/indistinct? The distinction between the good descriptive words and bad descriptive words depends of the care taken by the maker and what your ear expects.

At present my ears seem obessed with fuzzy/thumpy sounds and I'm falling out of love with my clean, crisp, piano-like Ibanez (which is all maple, neck and body). Now when I played a gig last week I changed basses andf thought I was giving different sounds. Did the band notice? Did my wife in the audience notice? Nah, not a bit of it... but I noticed and I'm doing the playing ;-)

[soopercrip]

[quote name='cytania' post='600003' date='Sep 16 2009, 11:14 AM']Hi Andy I get the impression you're bass buying at present or considering an upgrade path? You're trying to break down a bass into cost options.

OK one thing to be clear on is that a maple topped bass with a 'superb 3D flame' won't sound different from a maple topped bass that is just 'nice'. Some things are cosmetic, however...

No manufacturer picks crazy materials for a neck most are made of maple or similar woods. A cheap bass may have used a decent piece of maple but the frets won't have been done so well, the neck won't be shaped well (might suit your hand though), the finish may be horrible and sticky/glossy, the fret ends may be sharp. These make a big difference to tone because our human hands are playing that neck and ouch, wearing fret-ends smooth yourself is annoying.

More of the same... maple necks feel hard to play and you can tell they are more harsh/zingy (I like mine) whilst rosewood is warm/fuzzy/indistinct? The distinction between the good descriptive words and bad descriptive words depends of the care taken by the maker and what your ear expects.

At present my ears seem obessed with fuzzy/thumpy sounds and I'm falling out of love with my clean, crisp, piano-like Ibanez (which is all maple, neck and body). Now when I played a gig last week I changed basses andf thought I was giving different sounds. Did the band notice? Did my wife in the audience notice? Nah, not a bit of it... but I noticed and I'm doing the playing ;-)[/quote]

Hi Cytania
I am just about to complete a build, the body is cherry with a walnut top the neck is cherry/mahogany 5piece with a birdseye maple board,
I've used an ACG 02 pre with a single Nordstrand mm 5.2 pup. It was going to have a wenge board but in a sp@z moment i buggered it
So it's all together and plays, but being new to the pre it's taking some getting used to. Just some final tweaks on the set up to finish.
With the cherry being softer for the neck I reinforced it with some high tensile steel rods, and left the neck a little thicker (stingray-ish).
I love the sounds I'm getting, but how much I attribute to the pre and how much to the woods is what prompted my question matey
Will post some pics on the build thread in the next day or so ( will try to disguise the errors )

Andy

[alexclaber]

[quote name='soopercrip' post='600220' date='Sep 16 2009, 02:03 PM']I love the sounds I'm getting, but how much I attribute to the pre and how much to the woods is what prompted my question matey[/quote]

Play it unplugged in a quiet room - that's the acoustic sound of the bass. The pickup will then voice that a certain way whilst the preamp will do something else (possibly nothing with it set flat).

That's an interesting wood combination - my '87 Streamer has a cherry body and wenge neck with cherry stringers. Cherry doesn't get used much on basses because it's quite in demand for furniture and is thus expensive - I gather the tone is similar to soft maple.

Unplugged is it quite round and mellow in the lows, with fairy thick mids and a bit of snap on the top-end?

Alex