Unbalanced basses

[jdstrings]

A few weeks ago I bought a shiney red Epiphone EB3. It was one of those "I've always fancied one of those, and I really could do with a spare (cheapish) bass, and look! there's one going on ebay and it's a bit of a bargain REALLY" sort of purchases. I picked the bass up on the way to a gig and at the soundcheck decided to give it a bash. The bass looked good and seemed to be made to a high standard with good finish and fell to it. I prepared myself for a bit of classic rock as I slipped the strap over my head. But no, thoughts of Jack Bruce et al quickly dissapated as the headstock slowly sank towards the floor! Hmmm, I thought I won't be playing this on the gig tonight...
Fast forward to today and I'm standing with one beautifully balanced EB3 hanging from my neck with no hint of 'head-wilt'! It is now benefitting from a small modification which both balances the bass and makes it hang slightly more centrally i.e. the headstock is not quite so far away and it's a damn sight easier to play down that end of the neck. I guess the lack of balance is at least partly due to the fact that it was originally concieved as a short scale bass and by lengthening the neck by almost 10cm does throw the basic design out of kilter. I haven't gigged the bass yet, but will be taking it out a couple of times at the weekend and am looking forward to getting better aquainted with it.
If anyone is interested in this modifiaction I can supply a kit with all the parts needed. It does entail drilling one hole in the back of the bass but given the value of the instrument versus useability there's no contest in my opinion. Drop me a line and I'll send more info/pics.
If there are any other basses that suffer from similar design faults I would be happy to make adaptations for them, but would need to fit the kit myself.
Now, back to Jack Bruce...

Edited September 15, 2009 by jdstrings

[skankdelvar]

I'd be delighted to try your kit. This is very decent of you - I assume all this is free of charge as you don't mention any cost for the kit or the bespoke adaptations and fitting service.

[thodrik]

I own a Gibson EB3, 1974. Top heavy to say the least. Really unbalanced, really heavy, awesome tone. I'm gonna guess that the Gibson basses that Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser used were pretty unbalanced too. However, I could be (and generally tend to be) wrong

[teej]

Yep, I've got a Gibson EB3, not sure of the vintage, and it's totally neck heavy, in fact just downright heavy. Doesn't get much use, but it is a great bass and I can't bring myself to part with it.

Why wasn't I surprised to see that the original post was all about an EB3?

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Epiphone thunderbird - cured by moving the front strap button to the neck heel
Daughter's daisy rock heartbreaker (now sold) was even worse for neck dive though - added a strap button to the bottom horn (or should that be bottom bulge) and it balanced beautifully, although looked a bit odd at first.

What's this kit of parts? a strap button & a screw?

[Cat Burrito]

I've owned a few Epiphone basses in the past and must be one of the few people that didn't mind the neck dive. I've known of the old trick of replacing the strap button to the neckplate for some time but never bothered.

[LeftyJ]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='599855' date='Sep 16 2009, 09:09 AM']added a strap button to the bottom horn (or should that be bottom bulge) and it balanced beautifully, although looked a bit odd at first.[/quote]

Didn't that make the bass lean forward, requiring more pressure from your right arm to hold the body upright?

I'm curious about the modification of the TS. Could you post some pics?




Here's my topheavy bass:



I'm the guy on the left, the instruments pictured are Longbows (but in my bands they're more often referred to as [i]tafelpoot[/i], the Dutch word for tabe leg, and I'm often asked if I bought it at IKEA ). Longbow is (or was, their site has been taken down) an American company that built these cute instruments. One huge log of maple, two beautifully recessed Hipshot monorail bridge parts, strings through body, single string stacked humbuckers, and an amazing lot of fun to play. I used to own the one on the right but it was actually a righthanded instrument (I can feel a lot of pun coming my way, but yes, there is indeed a difference) and balanced very poorly on a strap because of the positioning of the strap buttons. When I got the chance, I ordered a new one lefthanded (and had them add 2" of extra scale length on top of the regular 30").

The strapbuttons are on the bottom and on the back of the... uh... well, 'neck', I guess, at the 5th position. As there is no body whatsoever, the bass tends to hang exactly horizontal on a strap, whereas I prefer to play it in a more or less upright position. Maybe I'll try to make a strap system like that of an NS Design EUB or bass cello one day.

Edited September 16, 2009 by LeftyJ

[thumperbob 2002]

All Warwick Thumbs do this neck dive but are sorted with a thick suede strap- would this not work on other basses?

Bob

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='LeftyJ' post='599901' date='Sep 16 2009, 09:18 AM']Didn't that make the bass lean forward, requiring more pressure from your right arm to hold the body upright?[/quote]
It did tend to lean forwards a bit when the right arm was moved away, but its a very light bass, so just having the right arm in the normal playing position without applying any pressure was enough to put it right. When playing it was remarkably comfortable. It didn't feel like it was trying to push forwards at all & was certainly a great improvement over holding the neck up with the left hand.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='599949' date='Sep 16 2009, 10:25 AM']All Warwick Thumbs do this neck dive[/quote]

You should try mine, it doesn't, the balance is perfect.

[Dr.Dave]

My EpiEx dives if I take my arm off the body - that's what I despise it so. It's just too 'right' for the ZZ trib in every other way though so I put up with it.

Other than that - I wouldn't buy a bass that dived - simple as that.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='599949' date='Sep 16 2009, 10:25 AM']All Warwick Thumbs do this neck dive but are sorted with a thick suede strap- would this not work on other basses?

Bob[/quote]

I thought when I bought a Thumb that I'd probably be buying into neck dive and that it was just something that I'd have to live with. This was simply not the the case, it balances brilliantly. I'm beginning to think the people who found Thumbs neck diving were wearing the basses around their ankles, rather than high on the chest where the Thumb is supposed to be worn!

[thisnameistaken]

The worst diver I ever had was my old Godin Acoustibass, I suppose hollow-bodied full-scale basses all suffer from it.

Dive wasn't a problem in the studio though, and it always sounded lush. Ended up using a P fretless live because it was impossible to prop up the Godin with my left hand, stay mobile and keep good intonation. And sing.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='599949' date='Sep 16 2009, 10:25 AM']All Warwick Thumbs do this neck dive but are sorted with a thick suede strap- would this not work on other basses?

Bob[/quote]
My Westbury Track 2 is somewhat neck-heavy but a broad, suede-backed strap tames its attempts to headbutt the deck. I play it slightly lower than my more conventionally-shaped basses and as a result tend to rest my right forearm on the body, which also helps keep it in the right position. The longer strap tends to make the low frets seem less far away too.

I'm curious as to what JDstrings' kit consists of though, & why I couldn't fit it myself, if I had one.

Jon.

[martthebass]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='600068' date='Sep 16 2009, 12:20 PM']I thought when I bought a Thumb that I'd probably be buying into neck dive and that it was just something that I'd have to live with. This was simply not the the case, it balances brilliantly. I'm beginning to think the people who found Thumbs neck diving were wearing the basses around their ankles, rather than high on the chest where the Thumb is supposed to be worn![/quote]

Mine neck dove(?) like a mutha and I wore it high (not Mark King high but high enough). Loved the bass but the neck dive ultimately made me sell it on.

[Lorne]

Buy a Mockingbird,THEN you'll know all about neckdive LOL

But as suggested earlier,get the widest strap you can get,and not a nylon one

Edited September 16, 2009 by Lorne

[Eight]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='599949' date='Sep 16 2009, 09:25 AM']All Warwick Thumbs do this neck dive but are sorted with a thick suede strap- would this not work on other basses?[/quote]
And the Vampyres.

Can't play it properly sitting down but standing with a decent strap works fine.

[tischbein]

My thumbs always tickeld my ankles, even hung high... a good strap fixed that, but it still hung to far to the left for my taste... so off it went.

[jdstrings]

Well, that opened up a can of worms! And some interesting ideas. I guess the suade strap has got to be the easiest method if it does the trick (I don't think it would be enough in the case of my EB3...?).
I realise that I've overstepped the mark as my original post counts as advertising without clearance to do so-apologies to all.
I've attached (hopefully) a couple of pics of the modifiaction so all can see and have a go yourselves if you are so minded!
It may not look too elegant in the pics, but when the bass is being 'worn' it is less obtusive and importantly doesn't interfere with the left hand. The strut is contoured where as it runs along the body to keep the profile as low as possible.
The other benefit (for me) is making the bass hang further to the right -it now hangs far more like my musicman which is my main instrument. (Years ago I had a JD fretless with a two octave neck. It was lovely but had to go as trying to reach the first couple of frets and play them in tune was akin to medieval torture!)
The parts used are: Wooden strut (mahogony or similar), 2 cap head allen key bolts, 2 threaded wood inserts, 2 plastic washers and some sanding sealer, varnish and dye. The original strap button and screw are reused. The reason I suggested that fitting would be required on any bass other than an Epiphone EB3 is that the correct balance point would have to be established for any particular model; the EB3 lacks the elongated upper horn of most basses and therefore requires a different method than that for a Fender or Warwick etc.

I'd be interested to hear if the short scale EB's do the same trick? I did consider replacing the EB3 with and EB0 and then swapping the electrics (including fitting the second pickup) but realised that life is just too short...


[attachment=32939:16092009554.jpg]

[attachment=32940:16092009553.jpg]

Edited September 16, 2009 by jdstrings

[skankdelvar]

Another approach is to string a breezeblock from the [i]rear[/i] strap button. Hey presto - dive abolished!

Or you could just incorporate it into your technique:

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='tischbein' post='600349' date='Sep 16 2009, 03:38 PM']My thumbs always tickeld my ankles, even hung high... a good strap fixed that, but it still hung to far to the left for my taste... so off it went.[/quote]

I must admit there are days when that bothers me (the lower reaches of the neck being a long way away), but most of the time it doesn't.

If I could find a bass I liked more than my Thumb then I'd replace it, but I've been looking for five years and failed.

Edited September 16, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[jdstrings]

[quote name='LeftyJ' post='599901' date='Sep 16 2009, 09:18 AM']Didn't that make the bass lean forward, requiring more pressure from your right arm to hold the body upright?

I'm curious about the modification of the TS. Could you post some pics?




Here's my topheavy bass:



I'm the guy on the left, the instruments pictured are Longbows (but in my bands they're more often referred to as [i]tafelpoot[/i], the Dutch word for tabe leg, and I'm often asked if I bought it at IKEA ). Longbow is (or was, their site has been taken down) an American company that built these cute instruments. One huge log of maple, two beautifully recessed Hipshot monorail bridge parts, strings through body, single string stacked humbuckers, and an amazing lot of fun to play. I used to own the one on the right but it was actually a righthanded instrument (I can feel a lot of pun coming my way, but yes, there is indeed a difference) and balanced very poorly on a strap because of the positioning of the strap buttons. When I got the chance, I ordered a new one lefthanded (and had them add 2" of extra scale length on top of the regular 30").

The strapbuttons are on the bottom and on the back of the... uh... well, 'neck', I guess, at the 5th position. As there is no body whatsoever, the bass tends to hang exactly horizontal on a strap, whereas I prefer to play it in a more or less upright position. Maybe I'll try to make a strap system like that of an NS Design EUB or bass cello one day.[/quote]

Liking the table legs! What are they tuned to? I made a similar 2 stringer for a collegue who wanted it for a solo version of Big Noise From Winnetka for a cabaret act:

[attachment=32971:slap_good.jpg]

It had a piezo pickup under the (wooden) bridge and inbuilt volume and tone controls. In the picture it has bass guitar strings, but these proved not to be up to the job and were replaced with double bass strings.
The main design problem was that it had to be played upright and had to be self supporting at about waist height. In the end it had an attachment (which just about worked!) to secure to a snare drum stand!

Edited September 16, 2009 by jdstrings

[henry norton]

[quote name='jdstrings' post='599474' date='Sep 15 2009, 07:20 PM']But no, thoughts of Jack Bruce et al quickly dissapated as the headstock slowly sank towards the floor! Hmmm, I thought I won't be playing this on the gig tonight...
I guess the lack of balance is at least partly due to the fact that it was originally concieved as a short scale bass and by lengthening the neck by almost 10cm does throw the basic design out of kilter.

Now, back to Jack Bruce...[/quote]

The long scale EBs were introduced way back in the early 70s. 34.5" scale yet still with no extended upper horn - obviously nobody actually played the prototype before it was OK'd for production! Given that the Thunderbird was introduced in the mid 60s they've had a long run of badly balanced basses, yet people still blame their lack of popularity on the sound. (I've never tried an EB-1 but it looks pretty badly balanced to me). If it's any consolation the short scale EBs dont balance that well either - my Precision feels more comfortable than my EB in spite of weighing about a pound and a half more.

[evilLordJuju]

[quote name='henry norton' post='600763' date='Sep 16 2009, 09:38 PM']The long scale EBs.... obviously nobody actually played the prototype before it was OK'd for production!
If it's any consolation the short scale EBs dont balance that well either[/quote]

My Epiphone EB3 does dive, that is true.

I can't agree about the Gibsons at all.

For the purposes of this thread I just tried: 63 EB0, (shortscale), a 1971 EB3L and an [url="http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/EB4L.php"]EB4L[/url] (same as a '72-79 EB3 in all but electronics). That covers all main body styles. None showed any sign of neck dive. EB3s are my main playing basses, and I never have any problems.

I've never played a shortscale EB3 that didn't balance perfectly [u]for me[/u]
Ones with bridge covers removed may be that bit lighter one end - maybe that accounts for some of this? (mine all have covers). I don't often use a wide leather strap either.

Edited September 16, 2009 by evilLordJuju

[Chris2112]

[quote name='martthebass' post='600118' date='Sep 16 2009, 01:01 PM']Mine neck dove(?) like a mutha and I wore it high (not Mark King high but high enough). Loved the bass but the neck dive ultimately made me sell it on.[/quote]

Interesting, I wear mine almost Mark King high and yet I have no problems. Ah well, different vinegar strokes for different folks.