Recording double bass

[Steve A]

Hi all,

Does anyone have a favourite or recommended large diaphragm condenser mic for recording double bass? What, in your experience has given you a good, solid, natural sound?

Thanks,


Steve

[teej]

Well, I have a Sennheiser e609 super-cardiod that I've used a lot with good results, but having recently recorded some stuff with The Ukes of Hazzard I was really impressed with the violinist's Rode NT1, [url="http://www.dv247.com/microphones/rode-nt1-a-condenser-microphone--10229"]here at digital village[/url] - very natural, warm sound. I'm saving for a matched pair.

[ironside1966]

The last time, I used 2 Se electronics Se3
One pointing in the F hole the other pointing up the neck, Technically, the SE3 has a frequency response covering 30Hz-20kHz, not bad for SD microphone. The acoustics can play a large part to the sound also

[gnasher1993]

I'd suggest blending DI, a mic'd amp and a mic on the bass, you can adjust these levels to get a sound you like. In terms of mics, I'd recommend the Electrovoice RE20 on the amp and an Earthworks P30 on the bass. As for a DI, just find something that works for you. The Presonus and Radial gear is pretty good.

A dynamic mic would probably be ok on the amp but play around with placement to get a good sound, don't point it right at the centre of the cone.

In terms of mic placement for the bass mic, a dynamic wouldn't work here. The double bass is likely to move about a fair bit so the sound a dynamic picks up would be very uneven, hence why I suggested the Earthworks.

[Steve A]

Good stuff chaps. Glad none of you recommended Neumanns (costing more than my bass is worth!)

[bassace]

Also (shock horror!) don't discount a pickup feed to to give a small amount of blend with the mic. If the separation in the studio is not perfect or you are recording 'as-live' tracks with a larger band the pickup, if used sparingly, will tighten up the bass sound very well.

[Steve A]

Great stuff. I'm using a 'Realist' through a Radial Tonebone acoustic preamp (blended with an SD systems mic for live use). Looking forward to experimenting with mics for recording.

[velvetkevorkian]

The only time I've recorded DB we used an AKG kick mic (D550, something like that? The dead common one) which I borrowed an AKG C1000s. Used the kick mic close to one of the F- holes and the C1000 pointing at the bottom of the fingerboard from a distance. Recorded them to two separate tracks in Cubase so we could play with the levels of each- worked quite nicely for a quick botch job.

[jakenewmanbass]

I use a Groove Tube GT67, large diaphragm valve condenser, the nearest thing you'll get to a Neumann for the money (under £400) but I don't think they are made any more. You can pick them up second hand. It's a lot of mic for the money. Goes without saying that Neumanns will do the best job even the relatively inexpensive non valve ones. I have done sessions for guys using them and was amazed with the results (they were pro producers though)
I totally abhor the pick up sound for recording if you want percussion in your sound get one of those thin directional mics and point it at your fingers, A producer I worked for in Parr St studios in Liverpool did that with great results although there was a gigantic £5k Neumann in front of me too.

Edited September 20, 2009 by jakesbass

[Steve A]

I'd never consider using a pickup for recording purposes as I hate that false electric sound... nothing comes close to the sound of the bass projected into a room with nice acoustics does it.

Thanks for the info on the Groove Tubes mic. I'm pretty sure a drummer/producer friend of mine has one of those and found one used for a ridiculously low price.

Edited September 20, 2009 by funkmunky

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='603177' date='Sep 19 2009, 09:54 PM']The only time I've recorded DB we used an AKG kick mic (D550, something like that? The dead common one).[/quote]

The AKG D112? I don't even like the sound of them on kick drums...

If you're mic'ing the bass and an amp then don't fall for the 'bass specific microphones sound best on bass amps' adage. If you've got a DI line or the bass is mic'ed you can get away with a dynamic mic on the speaker you just need something to get the mids and highs from the speaker cones, something like an EV RE20, Neumann BCM705 or a Heil PR30. They'll all sound great on a bass speaker combined with a DI from a good quality pickup.

Just experiment until you find a sound you like. Everyone's tastes are different.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='gnasher1993' post='603730' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:34 PM']The AKG D112? I don't even like the sound of them on kick drums...[/quote]
That's the one. Can't comment on the sound to be honest, worked at the time anyway- although I recall not having the proper mount for it and having to gaffa tape it quite severely. Like I say, a bit of a short notice botch job

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='603738' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:41 PM']That's the one. Can't comment on the sound to be honest, worked at the time anyway- although I recall not having the proper mount for it and having to gaffa tape it quite severely. Like I say, a bit of a short notice botch job [/quote]

I can't imagine they're too bad live on a bass cab if you're going through a big PA; in the studio, I personally wouldn't be able to find a use for one anywhere. As I say, I don't even like the sound of them on kick drums. Then again, I can understand why people do. They just don't fit with my kinda music (straightahead jazz...16" high-tuned Gretsch kick etc. you know the drill). I guess with a big ol' rock kit and a 22" bass drum, they'll sound great...which is understandably why they've been industry standard for a fair while.

Again, for a kick drum, I'd go back to the EV RE-20 again, one of my personal favourites (as you've probably guessed). Maybe even a Sennheiser MD 421, they give a nice 'pop' which is what I like to here from the kick. If I was helping someone on a budget, an SM57 should do the job on the kick drum

Quite sad isn't it? A 16 year old obsessed with recording already...

[velvetkevorkian]

I like how much mic knowledge you're crediting me with

[51m0n]

Heil PR40

Its the absolute nads.

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='51m0n' post='604162' date='Sep 21 2009, 12:25 AM']Heil PR40

Its the absolute nads.[/quote]

That and the EV RE-20 are the only two mics I would ever need...seriously!

[jdstrings]

What a subject! Over the years I've been recorded using so many different mics and methods that I can catagorically state that there is no 'best' mic or 'correct' method!
Firstly, it depends on the sound of your bass, secondly on the sound you want to capture, thirdly on the environment you're recording in, and forthly how the bass needs to sit/cut through in the mix. (There are probably many more points, but these four seemed like a good start!)
Here are a few random thoughts which might be of interest...
Generaly I prefer a mic only option. Many engineers will try to take a line from a pickup as a 'backup' or 'safety option' which is a bit lame -they wouldn't try to do this for any other instrument (except maybe guitar). However, as others have mentioned, under certain circumstances eg. recording in the same room as a drummer, adding a little bit of DI can really help to define the bass sound. Many times when recording in the same room as a drummer when line checking the bass the sound is wonderful however once the drums are bleeding through the bass mic, the bass just seems to get overwhelmed and looses all it's tone and character. Having said that, I remember recording an album once where the engineer used a Coles 4038 (an old ribbon mic originally designed for the BBC). It was a home session and I was in a large cellar kitchen/diner with a drummer and guitarist (his amp was in the larder!). It was all very makeshift but by careful placement (as the coles has a figure of 8 pattern) to keep the drums out of the way the results were very good. On another session with one of the top engineers in Prague (at the Rudolfinum) we recorded a seven piece band in one large room with lots of baffles/screens etc and top notch equipment -Neumann valve mics and the like. When we came to mix the album we ended up re-recording virtually all the bass in isolation as it just wasn't sounding good or coming through strongly with all the spill from the rest of the rhythm section.
If a nice sounding bass is being recorded in isolation then one mic should be perfectly capable of capturing the sound. It is always noticable whether an engineer actually spends any time listening to your sound in the room (many don't seem to at all) so they know what it is they should be hearing back in the control room. I find that the better engineers will actually take time (by listening a foot or so away from the front of the bass) to find where the best spot to place the mic actually is.
I remember there used to be a penchant for wrapping a mic in foam and poping it between the bridge legs -I haven't come across anyone trying to do this for quite a few years which is probably a good thing!
On another session (again in a home studio) by the time it came to mic up the bass all the 'good' mics had been used. Out came an SM57!!! I was less than impressed and was expecting a truly dreadful sound. However in the mix (singer and jazz quartet) the bass sounded absolutely fine. I'm sure in a more exposed situation this might not have been good enough, but it was perfectly adequate that day...

Edited September 23, 2009 by jdstrings

[bassace]

A very balanced view from jds. He aknowledges that there is not always a perfect solution and he is speaking from experience.


[quote name='jdstrings' post='606768' date='Sep 23 2009, 04:00 PM']It is always noticable whether an engineer actually spends any time listening to your sound in the room (many don't seem to at all) so they know what it is they should be hearing back in the control room. I find that the better engineers will actually take time (by listening a foot or so away from the front of the bass) to find where the best spot to place the mic actually is.[/quote]

That is a very valid point. I've very seldom come across an engineer who takes time to listen to the instrument acoustically. He is usually in a hurry to get all his mics in position and connected.

[Steve A]

Some excellent points there, thanks chaps.

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='bassace' post='606802' date='Sep 23 2009, 04:24 PM']A very balanced view from jds. He aknowledges that there is not always a perfect solution and he is speaking from experience.[/quote]

Just so you know, I'm speaking from experience as well. I agree with what JDS said though. You need to work with what you've got on the day.

[Owen]

Thia seems to be getting a ripple of attention and could be cheap.

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