Pete Academy Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 We know the bass players who have developed a sound and technique that is uniquely recognisable: Stanley, Marcus, Jaco, Bernard, Victor, Flea, Larry Graham, Bootsy, Geddy, Victor, Chris Squier (apologies for not including rock and metal players, as I'm not too familiar with them these days) etc, etc. Do you think it's pretty impossible to come up with anything different, as it's all been done before? Is everyone just a mixture of these players' sounds and styles? As Jeff Berlin says, he doesn't play fretless because he and virtually everyone else sounds like Jaco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanOwens Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I think its guys who embrace cutting edge technology (and mix in some old stuff) who are the modern electric bass innovators. Guys like Justin Meldal-Johnson and John Davis are embracing new effects and creating some unusual sounds. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='610099' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:21 PM']Do you think it's pretty impossible to come up with anything different, as it's all been done before?[/quote] No. If I thought that, I wouldn't bother playing. Not saying I'm going to contribute anything to the world of bass playing in the grand scheme of things but if I thought it had all been done before, I wouldn't really want to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='610101' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:25 PM']No. If I thought that, I wouldn't bother playing. Not saying I'm going to contribute anything to the world of bass playing in the grand scheme of things but if I thought it had all been done before, I wouldn't really want to play.[/quote] Of course you wouldn't stop playing - who would? But when you hear a sound it's always a 'Marcus-style' or 'Jaco-style' sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='610104' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:30 PM']But when you hear a sound it's always a 'Marcus-style' or 'Jaco-style' sound.[/quote] It's easy to end up listening to a lot of bass-centric music, where the great technical contributors will be aped over and over by people trying to incorporate their innovations into their own playing - but that's not all the music out there. Whenever I worry that my playing is getting a bit standard or samey, I write a new song. Playing bass is about playing songs - not licks and tricks. Everyone's playing will be a combination of their influences, the technological limitations of the day and some of their own innovations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='610108' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:36 PM']It's easy to end up listening to a lot of bass-centric music, where the great technical contributors will be aped over and over by people trying to incorporate their innovations into their own playing - but that's not all the music out there. Whenever I worry that my playing is getting a bit standard or samey, I write a new song. Playing bass is about playing songs - not licks and tricks. Everyone's playing will be a combination of their influences, the technological limitations of the day and some of their own innovations.[/quote] Good reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tait Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='610099' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:21 PM']As Jeff Berlin says, he doesn't play fretless because he and virtually everyone else sounds like Jaco.[/quote] jeff berlin is so full of nonsense. when i play fretless i dont sound like jaco, but thats because i dont play fusion jazzy stuff on fretless (and i'm not good enough to sound like jaco ) and because the only time i ever play fretless is when i'm doing acousticy stuff. i've hardly listened to any jaco at all, i get bored after a few minutes because its all just him twiddling around and i find that boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 At last years's Bass Day I bought a CD. On there was a guy who sounded and played like a complete clone of Marcus - same sound, same style. What's the point? Fretless-wise, I think Pino took it to another level. I think what I'm trying to say is do you think bass playing can evolve much more? You can add a million strings, but is it still bass playing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='Tait' post='610192' date='Sep 27 2009, 06:32 PM']jeff berlin is so full of nonsense. when i play fretless i dont sound like jaco, but thats because i dont play fusion jazzy stuff on fretless (and i'm not good enough to sound like jaco ) and because the only time i ever play fretless is when i'm doing acousticy stuff. i've hardly listened to any jaco at all, i get bored after a few minutes because its all just him twiddling around and i find that boring.[/quote] +1 on all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='610104' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:30 PM']Of course you wouldn't stop playing - who would? But when you hear a sound it's always a 'Marcus-style' or 'Jaco-style' sound.[/quote] I can't remember the last time I heard anybody who sounded like Marcus Miller or Jaco, but then I don't listen to music because it's got a talented bass player on it. Actually more often than not I avoid those records because they sound bad. Certainly there were guys in the '90s who sounded fairly fresh - the bassist out of Dag had a surprisingly low and dirty approach on some of their tunes, Mark Sandman was doing his "slide bass" thing, Robert Sledge was rocking out in Ben Folds Five, and so on. I think it's just that in many cases people don't have much of a reason to do something new with the bass. Certainly Sandman and Sledge were in combos with odd instrumentation which meant they played the instrument differently, but most of us are just "bass guitarists" and that's what's that's expected of us, so that's what we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I think that there are still players who are still pushing things in a new and cool direction. Gary Willis is doing some interesting stuff lately. Tim Lefebvre is doing some cool things. Matt Garrison's technique has opened up a lot of new things. Todd Johnson's pushing things with his whole way of chordal playing. It's inevitable that players will be influenced by what went before,but it's in what direction they want to take it. As far as fretless goes,I do think that the majority of players do sound like Jaco,with a few exceptions. Notably Pino,Alain Caron and Steve Bailey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Sir Robin Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) I think you can put Manring Les Claypool, and DiPiazza in the list. Another would be ERB players, like Carbone or Baudin. Solo artists are a different breed though. Edited September 28, 2009 by Brave Sir Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I always found that comment by Jeff Berlin to be nonsensical. If we all thought like that, most innovations on most instruments would never have happened. Percy Jones played fretless at the same time as Jaco and was compared with him but only an idiot would believe that they are not as different as chalk and cheese. If you want my opininon, depending on how deeply you want ot look, all double bass players sound like double bass players to me. And yet they all sound different. Same with pianists, trumpeters, saxophonists etc. All fretless basses sound like fretless basses but not all fretless bass players sound like Jaco. The argument does not bear close examination and never has. Berlin made a choice and justified it, like we all do. To be fair, Berlin human and all humans are fallable - even me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='610099' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:21 PM']Do you think it's pretty impossible to come up with anything different, as it's all been done before?[/quote] Yes. It's all downhill from here. Me, I'm about to pull the trigger on a lightweight contra-bass Glockenspiel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I think Jeff Berlin's comments stem from the fact that Jaco was such a strong voice on fretless,that it is difficult to not sound like him,thus it spawned many imitators. Alain Caron mentions it too in this months BGM. Michael Manring admits that he spent years trying to sound like Jaco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='Doddy' post='610913' date='Sep 28 2009, 03:22 PM']I think Jeff Berlin's comments stem from the fact that Jaco was such a strong voice on fretless,that it is difficult to not sound like him,thus it spawned many imitators. Alain Caron mentions it too in this months BGM. Michael Manring admits that he spent years trying to sound like Jaco.[/quote] Am I the only person who seemed to detect some bitterness from Jeff Berlin from his comments in the bass mag about Jaco. It got me thinking that he thinks that he is a bit wounded by the fact that he isn't held in the same esteem as Jaco...? Is that infamous video of him and Jaco jamming on his instructional DVD his way of saying that he had Jaco licked? Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 One of the issues I have with JB vs Jaco debate is that Berlin has, for me, failed to find a place for himself in any music of lasting quality. I think his Bruford stuff was marvellous but, since then, I have heard nothing that moves me (impresses, on occasion but never moves). Compare that to Jaco's stuff and you can see why JB never got that kind of prestige. Jaco was a better musician than Berlin, who is probably the better technician. JB sounds as if he comes at it with his brain not his heart and soul. His sound is clinical, Jaco's was much deeper (all subjective, I agree). Also, and this is not fair but it is true, Jaco, as a personailty, had presence, flair, charisma. JB is like your mate's Dad, the bloke that delivers the milk, the guy that mends your tv. Whether he is bitter or not is not for me to say but it is easy to see why he has experienced a lack of comparative success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='610977' date='Sep 28 2009, 04:41 PM']One of the issues I have with JB vs Jaco debate is that Berlin has, for me, failed to find a place for himself in any music of lasting quality. I think his Bruford stuff was marvellous but, since then, I have heard nothing that moves me (impresses, on occasion but never moves). Compare that to Jaco's stuff and you can see why JB never got that kind of prestige. Jaco was a better musician than Berlin, who is probably the better technician. JB sounds as if he comes at it with his brain not his heart and soul. His sound is clinical, Jaco's was much deeper (all subjective, I agree). Also, and this is not fair but it is true, Jaco, as a personailty, had presence, flair, charisma. JB is like your mate's Dad, the bloke that delivers the milk, the guy that mends your tv. Whether he is bitter or not is not for me to say but it is easy to see why he has experienced a lack of comparative success.[/quote] Agree. Great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I'm probably going to get a lot of disagreement, but personally I cannot think of an album or track I purchased solely for the bass line or player - although it might have a great player on it. I don't love Nick Drake's Three Hours because of Danny Thompson's playing on it, it's a great song. Suffice to say I went to see Danny Thompson play and it bore me so much my arse nearly fell off. Although this may be heresy on a bass forum - I've never heard a Primus track I liked, don't like the Chilli Peppers, never heard anything from Clarke, Wooton, Miller or Lee that has got me interested. We do need the innovators though. They influence others to make great music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='610099' date='Sep 27 2009, 04:21 PM']....Do you think it's pretty impossible to come up with anything different, as it's all been done before?....[/quote] Until the music that we play changes we'll all play like we always did. So, it's all been done, but I think we're doing it much better these days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='Tait' post='610192' date='Sep 27 2009, 06:32 PM']i get bored after a few minutes because its all just him twiddling around and i find that boring.[/quote] If you find him boring, thats cool, its all just opinions. But Jaco did plenty of beautiful and very lyrical lines, almost vocal like. There really was more to him than just 'twiddling around' He was unique at that time, for sure. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='610977' date='Sep 28 2009, 04:41 PM']One of the issues I have with JB vs Jaco debate is that Berlin has, for me, failed to find a place for himself in any music of lasting quality. I think his Bruford stuff was marvellous but, since then, I have heard nothing that moves me (impresses, on occasion but never moves). Compare that to Jaco's stuff and you can see why JB never got that kind of prestige. Jaco was a better musician than Berlin, who is probably the better technician. JB sounds as if he comes at it with his brain not his heart and soul. His sound is clinical, Jaco's was much deeper (all subjective, I agree). Also, and this is not fair but it is true, Jaco, as a personailty, had presence, flair, charisma. JB is like your mate's Dad, the bloke that delivers the milk, the guy that mends your tv. Whether he is bitter or not is not for me to say but it is easy to see why he has experienced a lack of comparative success.[/quote] I have one thing to say to JB...that video with the wrestler in it (or was it a boxer?). Probably the most ludicrous and shameful 'tuition' video that's ever been released. He's obviously a great player but (along with Anthony Jackson, at times) comes over as a total w***er. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tait Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='lowdown' post='611086' date='Sep 28 2009, 06:08 PM']If you find him boring, thats cool, its all just opinions. But Jaco did plenty of beautiful and very lyrical lines, almost vocal like. There really was more to him than just 'twiddling around' He was unique at that time, for sure. Garry[/quote] oh yeah definatly! i understand why people would listen to his music, but its just really not my sort of thing at all! i dont like victor wooten or anything like that, this solo bass stuff just bores me! and my point was that maybe the reason i dont sound like jaco when i'm playing fretless is maybe because i dont listen to him and i dont do all that solo stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='Tait' post='611209' date='Sep 28 2009, 08:16 PM']oh yeah definatly! i understand why people would listen to his music, but its just really not my sort of thing at all! i dont like victor wooten or anything like that, this solo bass stuff just bores me! and my point was that maybe the reason i dont sound like jaco when i'm playing fretless is maybe because i dont listen to him and i dont do all that solo stuff.[/quote] It's like any innovator - there's always players that take it further. Take Larry Graham, for instance. When I first heard Jaco's solo album back when it was released, it was mind-blowing. Ok, there are better, faster players etc, but Jaco had something special, and his technique was awesome. he was just a genius musician. I've read lots of comments by (mainly) younger players who can't see what the fuss is about. You just have to look a bit deeper than the bass heroes of today. Jaco is, and will always be, the greatest bass player of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamapirate Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 the way effects are going, you will NEVER run out of sounds. as for techniques? anyone play foot slap bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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