Solid paint finish

[peteb]

Can anyone explain the effect on the tone of a bass that a solid paint finish has (obviously compared to a natural finish)?

[YouMa]

i assume there would me slightly more resonance with a natural finish,i should think the difference is tiny though.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='peteb' post='610268' date='Sep 27 2009, 07:50 PM']Can anyone explain the effect on the tone of a bass that a solid paint finish has (obviously compared to a natural finish)?[/quote]
If the solid paint and the natural were both lacquered I don't think it would make much difference.

I stripped the lacquer off a natural finish Aria once and it did sound woodier.

[peteb]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='610289' date='Sep 27 2009, 08:06 PM']If the solid paint and the natural were both lacquered I don't think it would make much difference.

I stripped the lacquer off a natural finish Aria once and it did sound woodier.[/quote]
How would you define "woodier"?

[Lfalex v1.1]

It's a difficult one to crack, this...

I've got a broad selection of instruments, some of which are fully painted, some of which are wholly unpainted/unvarnished, and eveerything in between.
There's no particular reason for my purchasing pattern- I simply buy basses that I like (because they sound good and play well)

What makes it more difficult to quantify is that they're all made of different combinations of materials with different pick-ups/configurations/EQs.
In general terms, however;

The Painted instruments have the most "penetrating" tone - Not compressed as such - I could never accuse the Vigier of that. This instrument can almost sound "synthetic" when played in a certain way

The Gloss varnished basses (presumably the biggest sector of the market?) are similar to the painted instruments, though to a lesser degree

Matt varnished basses sound more open and organic than their shiny brethren. This comment is also relevant to Nitro finished instrument IME.

My Warwick Infinity (SN4) is unfinished - just waxed. I bought it for the resonant and almost organic tonal qualities it offers. It is chambered, and made from Zebrano (V. dense)

To make an even remotely balanced comparison, you'd ideally need something like two identical Warwick Thumbs, one [i]au naturel[/i] and one in a painted or high gloss finish.
The equation is further complicated by the fact that different manufacturers use differing thicknesses of finish! Needless to say, this has a varying effect upon the tone.
It ought to be mentioned that I reckon finish ranks well behind factors such as construction, materials choice, pick-ups, EQ and so on have a greater impact on tone.

[Wylie]

In my experience of instrument making, the effect of a finish on wood has a minimal effect on its tone. On a solid-body bass, a finish would have to be extraordinarily thick to affect the tone; on a 1/32" guitar top, of course, the deadening effect of a finish can be more pronounced.

[yorks5stringer]

I always rub snake oil on my Basses ( irony)!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='peteb' post='610294' date='Sep 27 2009, 08:15 PM']How would you define "woodier"?[/quote]
I'd probably try to avoid defining it if I could, but as you insist...

...bassier to some degree, with less tightness in the mids and highs, and perhaps a greater low-mid warmth.

Mind you these things can be very difficult to describe at the best of times and it was in the mid-eighties that I did this so, although I recall finding it more 'woody' at the time, I don't now recall exactly what it sounded like.

I think it would be fair to say, however, that the difference would have been small.

Edited September 27, 2009 by EssentialTension

[peteb]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='610473' date='Sep 28 2009, 12:04 AM']I'd probably try to avoid defining it if I could, but as you insist...

...bassier to some degree, with less tightness in the mids and highs, and perhaps a greater low-mid warmth.

Mind you these things can be very difficult to describe at the best of times and it was in the mid-eighties that I did this so, although I recall finding it more 'woody' at the time, I don't now recall exactly what it sounded like.

I think it would be fair to say, however, that the difference would have been small.[/quote]
The reason for the thread is that I did strip the paint off a 70s Fender P a while ago and it definitely did have an effect on the sound but I have struggled to describe exactly what that difference is.

‘Woodier’ is the term that I would also use but I don’t know why!

Of my other three basses, two have natural finishes and one has a solid paint job. The painted bass seems to have what I tend to think of as a ‘sweeter’ sound but possibly cuts thru less, but I’m not sure to what extent that is due to the finish.

[henry norton]

I think alot of people 'hear' what they want to hear when it comes to instrument mods. I also think the change in appearance can make people play differently, more aggressive or maybe more sensitively. Maybe making your instrument look woodier made you play in a more 'woody, mellow, warm way'. Not in a 'wooden' way by the way After all that work you'd want to 'hear' an improvement after all. I'm pretty sure taking off a thick layer of polyester will have some effect on the sound but after the strings, pickups, wood, construction and electronics have all had their say, it'll be tiny fractions.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='henry norton' post='612332' date='Sep 29 2009, 06:54 PM']I think alot of people 'hear' what they want to hear when it comes to instrument mods. I also think the change in appearance can make people play differently, more aggressive or maybe more sensitively. Maybe making your instrument look woodier made you play in a more 'woody, mellow, warm way'. Not in a 'wooden' way by the way After all that work you'd want to 'hear' an improvement after all. I'm pretty sure taking off a thick layer of polyester will have some effect on the sound but after the strings, pickups, wood, construction and electronics have all had their say, it'll be tiny fractions.[/quote]
+1 on that.

[warwickhunt]

My £0.02 worth...

I've owned painted/lacquered and natural/waxed Warwick Streamer basses and the finish HAS had an affect on tone. I accept that it it could be said this could be down the the individual instrument and or my change in playing style/approach to each instrument BUT I am talking about a sample of over 20 Warwick Streamer basses owned over the last 25 years and they have without exception had a different tone [u]dependent upon finish[/u]. I will add that I know full well that each bass has had some difference in tone (mainly dependent upon pup manufacture) but without exception the painted/lacquered basses had an overall tone that differed from the natural finish. Just my experience of a particular bass manufacturer but hey... the OP asked for opinions.

[mrcrow]

my guess is nothing...
i dont think finishes are applied for tonal values
just poshness

personally ...and i know its psychological...but a matt finished wood seems to me to make me want to produce good tone
all the other finishes...including the jamerson sunburst...etc...
are just colours of the rainbow

[henry norton]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='612357' date='Sep 29 2009, 08:24 PM']My £0.02 worth...

I've owned painted/lacquered and natural/waxed Warwick Streamer basses and the finish HAS had an affect on tone. I accept that it it could be said this could be down the the individual instrument and or my change in playing style/approach to each instrument BUT I am talking about a sample of over 20 Warwick Streamer basses owned over the last 25 years and they have without exception had a different tone [u]dependent upon finish[/u]. I will add that I know full well that each bass has had some difference in tone (mainly dependent upon pup manufacture) but without exception the painted/lacquered basses had an overall tone that differed from the natural finish. Just my experience of a particular bass manufacturer but hey... the OP asked for opinions. [/quote]
Was there a general trend with the solid colour/lacquered? ie. brighter, punchier? Does the the construction or choice of woods differ with solid finished Warwicks? Less neck laminates, cheaper varieties of wood, that sort of thing. If so, that could have a big effect.

[mrcrow]

leo used an unvarnished/unpainted lump of breadboard
and he got on ok with the precision

marketing and as noted hiding inferior wood/ply is a feature

when the spec says alder...it means alder...in the woods all the alder trees are browny tones etc

paint is to...gild the lily

Edited September 29, 2009 by mrcrow

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='henry norton' post='612398' date='Sep 29 2009, 08:03 PM']Was there a general trend with the solid colour/lacquered? ie. brighter, punchier? Does the the construction or choice of woods differ with solid finished Warwicks? Less neck laminates, cheaper varieties of wood, that sort of thing. If so, that could have a big effect.[/quote]

Someone used the term 'Woodier' when applied to natural finishes and the definition that there was more 'warmth' and less 'tightness' in the upper-mid register... I'd agree with that. I found that the lacquer/paint finishes were more 'up-front' [u]in isolation[/u] BUT when applied to a band mix the more aggressive/toppy sound actually cut through the mix better; not to say that the natural finishes were lacking in the band mix but the paint/lacquer had some merit. The construction that I'm talking about was with regard to NT Streamers (predominantly late 80's early 90's models and most being Stage I's); number of neck laminates was of no consequence as I owned both types of finishes and in all of the various combinations of number and type of laminate. Body woods invariably consisted of Maple (with the exception of a couple of Cherry wood bodied models that epitomised the Warwick phrase " The sound of wood") and fingerboards were almost always wenge. There were no cheaper/inferior versions of these basses in respect of my experience.

Actually Luke (LukeFRC) recently contacted me re. his experiences with a coloured/lacquered bass and his recent acquisition of a natural finish bass (both Streamer Stage I basses) and he was actually stating exactly what I had found from past experience.

[quote name='mrcrow' post='612408' date='Sep 29 2009, 08:07 PM']leo used an unvarnished/unpainted lump of breadboard
and he got on ok with the precision

marketing and as noted hiding inferior wood/ply is a feature

when the spec says alder...it means alder...in the woods all the alder trees are browny tones etc

paint is to...gild the lily[/quote]

I'm not saying one is better than the other 'painted v unpainted' a P bass body/pup will give you a P bass sound that will be absolutely fine but unless BO basses are less susceptible to the affect of paint I'd say that a painted model would sound different to a stripped natural model... IMHO!

I've owned multi laminate basses in the past and though they may be cheaper to produce I'd be hard pushed to say that they were inherently 'inferior'; they are just different, the way that Alder v Ash is different OR painted V natural is different.

[Al Heeley]

I can accept that some finishes could influence the tone & resonance of an acoustic instrument but not an electric bass. Not to my ears - too much other stuff rendering any tonal perturbations insignificant. I do enjoy these debates though

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='612605' date='Sep 29 2009, 11:05 PM']I can accept that some finishes could influence the tone & resonance of an acoustic instrument but not an electric bass. Not to my ears - too much other stuff rendering any tonal perturbations insignificant. I do enjoy these debates though [/quote]

Perfectly reasonable assumption/expectation. However, I did have a SSII that was originally a natural finish that was professionally refinished solid black and the respect luthier who did the job commented on the fact that he was as surprised to find that the finish did alter the tone of the instrument.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has done the reverse and what they found.

[peteb]

[quote name='henry norton' post='612332' date='Sep 29 2009, 06:54 PM']I think alot of people 'hear' what they want to hear when it comes to instrument mods. I also think the change in appearance can make people play differently, more aggressive or maybe more sensitively. Maybe making your instrument look woodier made you play in a more 'woody, mellow, warm way'. Not in a 'wooden' way by the way After all that work you'd want to 'hear' an improvement after all. I'm pretty sure taking off a thick layer of polyester will have some effect on the sound but after the strings, pickups, wood, construction and electronics have all had their say, it'll be tiny fractions.[/quote]
I do take your point, but…. if anything I actually preferred the sound of the bass before I stripped the paint off!

I agree with Warwickhunt, the finish definitely has an affect on the sound! My main gigging bass now is a natural (waxed) Warwick Stage 1 which sounds great on stage with a band. However, I’ve never played a Stage 1 with a paint finish but would love to be able to compare the two……

Edited September 30, 2009 by peteb

[Fraktal]

I suppose there must be a difference in tone because of the bridge. If it is directly screwed to the body wood without any paint/varnish/lacquer it is logical to assume the transmission of vibrations wont be the same than if it has a layer of stuff in between.

There is also a chance the harder, shinier, less porous finish of paint/varnish/lacquer on the body will project the mids-highs frequencies a bit better acoustically speaking, but I doubt this has any effect on a plugged and amplified bass, and even if it has, I bet it would be marginal.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Fraktal