How do you practise in order to play jazz?

[JPS]

What are the main things that you'd consider most important in terms of practice when starting to play jazz?

I've read a few suggestions including:

1. arpeggios - mainly 7th chords.
2. scales - major minor, modes, pentatonics.
3. Learning tunes.
4. Learning melodies.
5. Writing walking lines.
6. Transcribing.

All seems logical but I just struggle to know how to practise these things e.g. do I just practise dom7th chords in various positions, inversions etc. Do I try to learn as many fingerings as possble? As for transcribing for example I wouldn't know where to start.

Any advice/suggestions greatly received.

Cheers

JPS.

[Bilbo]

Big question, JPS. The honest answer is 'all of the above' but I will try and give you a starting point.

The most important thing to learn in jazz at the early stages is the jazz blues form in F and in Bb.

F7/// Bb7/// F7/// ////
Bb7/// //// F7/// D7///
Gm7/// C7/// F7/D7/Gm7/C7/

or

Bb7/// Eb7/// Bb7/// ////
Eb7/// //// Bb7/// G7///
Cm7/// F7/// Bb7/G7/Cm7/F7

If you can play walking lines over these two and improvise over them, you are on the way.

[lowdown]

After the blues Form...
I would also recommend learning 'I Got Rhythm' changes and form.
It helps in movement, and does pop up from time to time in different disguises,
The 'Flintstones Theme' being one you would know.

Pete Thomas gives a good run down, and chord chart here.
Worth a look.
[url="http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-i-got-rhythm.html"]http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-i-got-rhythm.html[/url]


Garry

Edited September 30, 2009 by lowdown

[Zombywoof]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='613198' date='Sep 30 2009, 07:18 PM']Big question, JPS. The honest answer is 'all of the above' but I will try and give you a starting point.

The most important thing to learn in jazz at the early stages is the jazz blues form in F and in Bb.

F7/// Bb7/// F7/// ////
Bb7/// //// F7/// D7///
Gm7/// C7/// F7/D7/Gm7/C7/

or

Bb7/// Eb7/// Bb7/// ////
Eb7/// //// Bb7/// G7///
Cm7/// F7/// Bb7/G7/Cm7/F7

If you can play walking lines over these two and improvise over them, you are on the way.[/quote]

I know it's a long-shot but, can you think of any examples of songs with the above chord progressions as a useful sort of play-a-long-a-thing-thing?

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='lowdown' post='613206' date='Sep 30 2009, 07:32 PM']I would also recommend learning 'I Got Rhythm' changes and form.
It helps in movement, and does pop up from time to time in different disguises,
[b]The 'Flintstones Theme' being one you would know.[/b][/quote]

Now that I'd [i]never[/i] noticed. Very cool.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Zombywoof' post='613245' date='Sep 30 2009, 08:31 PM']I know it's a long-shot but, can you think of any examples of songs with the above chord progressions as a useful sort of play-a-long-a-thing-thing?[/quote]

There are hundreds of tunes with these changes-but a good start would be something like Billies Bounce or
Now is the Time by Charlie Parker.

I would start to practice Jazz by initially playing the arpeggios in Quarter notes over the changes.
When you get comfortable with this,start adding notes from the relevant scale so that you will be able to
move smoothly from one chord to the next. Then you will start to develop good walking lines.

Learning to play melodies is essential,but as you will mostly be walking,it is more important to
create a good walking bass line early on.

[JPS]

Thanks guys that's really helpful. I'm reasonably comfortable walking over a blues (not claiming to be Ray Brown obviously) and can write lines using arpeggios, passing notes, chromatic approach notes etc.

I read somewhere that you should always play the stronger notes - i.e. root, third or fifth - on the 1st and 3rd beats of the bar. Is this sound advice? I find it a bit difficult to be quite that precise at the moment.

Wouldn't know where to start in terms of soloing to be honest. I'd probably make the classic bass player's mistake and fall back on arpeggios starting from the root upwards. Any useful tips on how to start soloing?

I've also started learning melodies for the first time. I take it they can be a useful starting point for modest solos.

Thanks again.

[Doddy]

For soloing,learning melodies is a great starting point. Singing ideas and then playing them is another
great way,as you will sing ideas that are better than what you would naturally play. Eventually you should be
able to do this simultaneously-that's what people talk about when they say 'play what you sing'.
Falling back on arpeggios isn't a bad thing. You just have to know them inside out and be able
to play them in any inversion.

As far as playing the strong tones when walking-again it is a matter of knowing the arpeggios
and scales so well that you know how the changes relate to each other in regards to the notes they share.
If you know how all the notes and chords relate to each other you will be able to play smoother
lines without sounding like you are 'jumping' from chord to chord.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='JPS' post='613857' date='Oct 1 2009, 02:34 PM']Thanks guys that's really helpful. I'm reasonably comfortable walking over a blues (not claiming to be Ray Brown obviously) and can write lines using arpeggios, passing notes, chromatic approach notes etc.[/quote]

Thats pretty much all there is, mate: the rest is called style and taste and you can't get that any other way but trial and error over months and years of playing.

[quote name='JPS' post='613857' date='Oct 1 2009, 02:34 PM']I read somewhere that you should always play the stronger notes - i.e. root, third or fifth - on the 1st and 3rd beats of the bar. Is this sound advice? I find it a bit difficult to be quite that precise at the moment.[/quote]

It is true but its also impossible to think like that when you are playing at 320 bpm. Its a helpful guide to why somethings work better than others but, like all 'rules', it is there to be broken if you think something sounds good.

[quote name='JPS' post='613857' date='Oct 1 2009, 02:34 PM']Wouldn't know where to start in terms of soloing to be honest. I'd probably make the classic bass player's mistake and fall back on arpeggios starting from the root upwards. Any useful tips on how to start soloing?[/quote]

Yes you do, you just can't get that its hard to get from 1st bass to a home run and takes time. Its not magic, its hard learned. You improvise every time you speak or write - its no different. You just take notes, phrases, licks etc and play them in any order that pleases the ear. Sing along with you playing and play what you sing (don't sing what you play, thats the motor skills driving the brain not the other way around)

[quote name='JPS' post='613857' date='Oct 1 2009, 02:34 PM']I've also started learning melodies for the first time. I take it they can be a useful starting point for modest solos.[/quote]

Melodies are a great way of making sense of chord sequences. Time well spent. All solos are melodies; nothing more and nothing less.

[lowdown]

Also remember when you start to have a command of scales/modes/arps whatever,
and you are presented with a chord sheet for a tune,
the minute you start to play your walking line,
you are in fact improvising on the spot - a big part of playing jazz.


Garry

[JPS]

I like the sing/play idea for coming up with phrases, licks etc. I'd imagine that's a great way of breaking out of the same tired, cliched ideas that I always fall back on on.

I suppose to some extent playing, for example, a 1-2-3-5 line over and over again under lots of different types of chords helps you to eventually internalise it to the point where it comes naturally and can be mixed up with and used with lots of other ideas.

I find the biggest challenge at the moment is playing several consecutive bars over the same, or similar chord. Trying to keep it interesting and flowing without constanly returning to the root note at the start of every bar.

All good stuff though and I imagine you can get lost in this stuff for a liftetime and still not have enough time.

Cheers.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='JPS' post='613886' date='Oct 1 2009, 03:22 PM']I imagine you can get lost in this stuff for a liftetime and still not have enough time.[/quote]

Absolutely: Ron Carter says 'I'm still just trying to find the right notes'.

[Mr Wilson]

Seems like you got the basic idea to get yourself familiar with working through chords. I would say definately transcribe some jazz blues walking basslines. I found this great after learning all the rules! Play chordal tones on strong beats etc. I would transcribe some of the jamie abersold tracks with Ron Carter on them. You can easily hear the bass. ITs great cause you learn how to play in a jazz feel as well as some tasty lines that you can combine with lines you have already worked out. Transcribing and just listening to lots of jazz in general and give you the idea of getting a good jazz feel as well as get an idea on appropriate phrasing.

Keep up the good work

[JPS]

Anyone got a good suggestion for an "easy" jazz blues to start transcribing?

[Bilbo]

C Jam Blues - Duke Ellington.

[XB26354]

With regard to improvising - yes, most bass players start off root-oriented because that's what we're used to playing.

As has been said elsewhere, it is vitally important to learn to play melodies convincingly to move away from being an accompanist.
There are essentially three approaches to improvising:

1. Linear - this usual employs scale tones or fragments of scales, and also chromatic movement - can sound very smooth but too much of it can make a solo sound stagnant.

2. Intervallic - by using wider intervals you create bigger jumps which grab the ear. After working on diatonic arpeggios, practice diatonic 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths and then try combinations (up one interval, down the next).

3. Sequence - this is to take any musical idea and repeat it across bar lines and chord changes. A sequence can be made up of linear and/or intervallic parts

Try exploring all three ideas - in order to learn any concept you must concentrate on just that concept.

Linear, start off with a chord sequence of an easy tune at a medium-slow tempo. Play quarter notes starting at the lowest playable scale tone that fits the first chord on your bass. Keep going up in diatonic scale tones until the next chord appears. Then play the next available scale tone that fits the second chord and keep going through the chord sequence until you run out of frets or the sequence repeats. Do the same going back down, but pick a different route on the bass.

Intervallic, do the same as above but slower as it is a lot harder! Also experiment by inverting each second interval. you can create some amazing lines this way.

Sequence - take a three or four-note melodic idea low on your bass. Lift the idea up in scale tones until the next chord, then continue the sequence, adjusting any notes that need to change to fit the new chord. Start maybe with the first four eighth notes of the bar. When you get more confident try sequences that cross over bars and create cross rhythms (such as a sequence of sixteenth notes played with an accent on every third note).

Once you've got things working with these ideas separately slowly bring them together and you'll find it pretty easy to improvise (as long as the tempo isn't stupidly fast - watch out for sax players that look edgy or hyper - they're bound to call Cherokee at 300bpm!) I've never seen or heard a good soloist that didn't have a command of these three ideas.

One other point about walking bass - it is important to use roots but most advanced players are capable of playing a line that is so strong in itself that it implies the chord and context excellently, even if there are few roots (or even chord tones). At its best, this approach can turn a "bass line" into a counterpoint to a melody or solo.

Some key books (mentioned here before):
The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine
Building Walking Bass Lines (and Expanding Walking Bass Lines) by Ed Friedland
Concepts for Bass Soloing by Marc Johnson - absolutely excellent book with stunningly beautiful upright from Marc
Any of the Aebersold playalongs that cater for less experienced jazzers (check the web or the back of any book)

Oh and last but very much not least - listen to lots and lots of Jazz - all the answers are there

Edited October 2, 2009 by XB26354

[JPS]

Brilliant advice thanks very much. Had my first attempt at playing some (very simple) jazz with another "live" musician tonight. Really enjoyed it and didn't disgrace myself. Started with a few easier tunes to build a bit of confidence e.g. Song For My Father, Fly Me To The Moon, Sunny Side Of The Street, Bye Bye Blackbird.

Will be a fair while before I'm able to play any sort of a convincing solo methinks thought. Still something to aim for. This is probably the first time I've effectively played music that demands serious study. My head hurts but in a good way!

Thanks again.

[Bilbo]

Nice one, JPS. Now you have played 'Song For My Father' once, you've got it out of your system. Never play it again. Please.

[JPS]

Sound advice Bilbo! Not the most interesting song to play even for a beginner. Personally I can't wait to play some of that proper jazz like Jamie Cullum, or Jools Holland.

[Doddy]

[quote name='JPS' post='614779' date='Oct 2 2009, 01:33 PM']Sound advice Bilbo! Not the most interesting song to play even for a beginner. Personally I can't wait to play some of that proper jazz like Jamie Cullum, or Jools Holland.[/quote]

Sarcasm right?

[JPS]

Yes, don't worry! Isn't Jamie Cullum the biggest selling "jazz" artist in the UK?

[Faithless]

I've got into jazz not that long ago, and, the thing, that helped me most, to be honest, was Ed Friedland's - Building Walking Basslines' - it starts from basic things, gets into the typical F/Bb jazz blues, talks a lot about different types of approach notes (which, I think, is one of the [b]most important things[/b] to make the walking bassline sound interesting), and only at the end of 'tuition' you get to play Rhythm Changes.

Of course, it's important to know chords, arpeggios, and scales, but it won't help you to create an interesting bassline, in my opinion.

And, in fact, sometimes it's ok to use only root and fifth, and some approching to those two notes - and you'll get superb phrase/line.

Faith

[XB26354]

[quote name='Faithless' post='615719' date='Oct 3 2009, 02:33 PM']Of course, it's important to know chords, arpeggios, and scales, but it won't help you to create an interesting bassline, in my opinion.[/quote]

If you don't know the available chord and scale tones for a given chord, at least when you are learning a tune, you will struggle to produce a convincing line. Ed Friedland's books are excellent and they concentrate on these very elements - but a chromatic approach note only exists because there is a valid scale or chord tone to follow. In other words, you have to know where the scale or chord tone is in order to relate it to the chromatic approach. Otherwise you're either playing bum notes or free jazz

[JPS]

I've got a couple of Ed's books and they are excellent. However, I do think there is a bit of a gap in that they don't cover using arpeggios and scales in any detail. They seem to move from root and fifth to target notes, chromatic passing notes etc. Obviously the best approach is to be able to combine elements of several approaches in a single line I suppose, but I do think it's a weakness in otherwise really helpful books.

[Faithless]

Maybe I didn't get somethin', but, in fact, there [i]are [/i]chapters that cover arpeggios and scales in that book.. ('building walking lines')


XB26354, I know, what you mean, but, maybe I wasn't clear enough - I was trying to say, that [i]knowing [/i]of scales and arpeggios itself won't help you to create an interesting bassline.

But, an understanding (knowing) of chord/scale/arpeggio is crucial, no doubt here, mate


Faith.