Jazz/Precision pickup comparisons.

[Count Bassy]

I recently bought myself a US built Fender "Stu Hamm"Urge 1, from about 1990, the one with the 32" scale, and a JPJ pickup configuration.

I love the instrument in many ways but, having played it for a few weeks I find that there is, to my ear, very little difference between the sound of the P pickup on its own and the sound of the two Js together. There is a difference but, it seems to me, no more than can be acheived by use of the tone controls. I was expecting more of a difference; So:


Does a Jazz on both pickups sound like a precision anyway?, or is it it because I have this combination of pickups on the same guitar that makes the difference less obvious?.

I am only playing it through a Marshall B65 combo. Is it possible that this amp doesn't bring out the difference?

Does the Preamp on the urge 1 mask the differences?

Are the pickups on and urge 1 just crap?

Would changing some or all the pickups from the originals give me a wider range of tones?

Would changing the strings bring out the differences? (still using the ones it came with - round wound, medium gauge, probably stainless, but no idea as to make)


Should I have stuck with the Mexican Urge 1 I already had and saved my money?

Is it just me?


Thoughts and comments please!


Thanks Clive.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='65880' date='Sep 26 2007, 01:52 PM']I recently bought myself a US built Fender "Stu Hamm"Urge 1, from about 1990, the one with the 32" scale, and a JPJ pickup configuration.

I love the instrument in many ways but, having played it for a few weeks I find that there is, to my ear, very little difference between the sound of the P pickup on its own and the sound of the two Js together. There is a difference but, it seems to me, no more than can be acheived by use of the tone controls. I was expecting more of a difference; So:
Does a Jazz on both pickups sound like a precision anyway?, or is it it because I have this combination of pickups on the same guitar that makes the difference less obvious?.

I am only playing it through a Marshall B65 combo. Is it possible that this amp doesn't bring out the difference?

Does the Preamp on the urge 1 mask the differences?

Are the pickups on and urge 1 just crap?

Would changing some or all the pickups from the originals give me a wider range of tones?

Would changing the strings bring out the differences? (still using the ones it came with - round wound, medium gauge, probably stainless, but no idea as to make)
Should I have stuck with the Mexican Urge 1 I already had and saved my money?

Is it just me?
Thoughts and comments please!
Thanks Clive.[/quote]

There's a real possibility that the answer to all of the above questions is 'yes'. I remember posting a thread about the bass in question on the old Bassworld and a couple of the wiser members saying much the same as you have about yours. In terms of trying out different options, I'd certainly try playing it through a decent amp and a decent speaker, my Flea Bass sounded pretty average until I blasted it through 400W of Trace/Hughes & Kettner, and then it came to life in a huge way, rendering all my other basses 2nd division to say the least. Subtle differences between PUPs at 25W in the living room can become huge differences at 250W in a studio, and might make the difference between offering the sound you want in shed-loads or not offering it at all. Strings will make a difference also; new strings with a good tonal range will help to discriminate between PUPs to an extent. However, Fender are not, even at the best of times, renowned for their active electronics, and the best PUPs will still sound average through a poor pre-amp. Perhaps try it passive to see whether you like the PUPs you have before you try anything expensive like replacing all three. An East pre-amp will no doubt help but replacing PUPs and pre-amp on a thre PUP bass will be costly. I remember being told that the neck PUP on an Urge is redundant, I have no idea whether that's true, but the guy who told me certainly knew his stuff and it seems to tie in with what you've said above. Evidence suggests that whereas the JP combination is hugely popular, the JPJ is less so, perhaps supporting this theory. However, as with all things musical, it's a matter of genre, taste, playing style etc etc.
Having said all of the above, I've always thought that if well set up and played through a good system, they must be great basses, and I very nearly bought one a month back. Given recent acquisitions, Mrs Beedster would have burnt it as firewood however.
Good luck
Chris

[Sharkfinger]

Just to put in my £0.02's worth: I recently also bought a Fender Stu Ham Urge I but a Mexican one, with only the JJ pup configuration. I played it through my Trace practice combo and the Trace 8x10 at a rehearsal. Now, to my ears, although the neck pup is nice and deep, it doesn't sound like my squier P. The deepness achieved can probably be put down to it's position, which is probably the same as yours, as the two pups are quite far apart. I thought the preamp was OK, actually. Perhaps I just have low expectations, playing mainly passives: the EMG's in the Jazz don't really count as "active", I don't think.

They obviously saved a few pennies by just not including a P pup and keeping the neck J in the same position.

Can't compare them ATM, as the Urge is in the care of the Bass Centre, getting a set up and new strings. May get back to you once that's done. Might even try it against my JV Squier J and P's as a comparison.

As an aside, have you noticed that the width at the nut is quite wide, like a P? Not sure I like this, as I have small hands. This is the reason the J is my main bass, over the P. I had a Fender JP-90 until a short time ago and the nut width was more J but perhaps even slimmer. It had a similar headstock to the Urge, so I thought it would have the same nut width and it was an unpleasant surprise when I realised. So, who knows? May be moving it on.

[Count Bassy]

Thanks for your comments chaps.

Chris, If anything, on mine at the moment I would say that the P pickup is the redundant one, as I can get a very good approximation to it by having the two js together and a little teaking of the Volume and the tone.

I'll try out some of your ideas and report back.

Shark, as it stands at the moment, if you were thinking of buying a US one, I would say stick with the Mexican. The US one is undoubtedly better finished, and has string through the body etc, and is generally better quality, but in terms of fundamental playability is not much different to the Mex, and as I said in launching this thread, the extra pickup does not seem to add that much. I can't make a complete direct comparison between the two as the Mex has heavier strings on at the moment, but I guess that, given I paid twice as much for the US one as for the Mex, I'm a bit dissapointed not to see more difference.

The only problem I have with the Mex is that its prone to neck dive which the US one isn't (lighter machines and the weight of the extra pick up etc. I guess), and the big elephant ear tuners get knocked out of tune very easily.

I guess one solution might be to speak to Wizard pickups to see if he could supply an alternative P pick up to bring out the difference a bit more.

Just a thought/another question: If you put a P pickup in the P pick up position, but on a Jazz Bass, does it sound like a P Bass, or a Jazz, bass, or what?

Also, would the pickup hieght affect the difference in the sounds?


Clive

[Beedster]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='67193' date='Sep 29 2007, 12:07 AM']Just a thought/another question: If you put a P pickup in the P pick up position, but on a Jazz Bass, does it sound like a P Bass, or a Jazz, bass, or what?

Also, would the pickup hieght affect the difference in the sounds?
Clive[/quote]

The P Bass sound is to my mind as much a function of the big fat neck as the PUP. I had a Jazz neck on a Precision a year or so back and it sounded much less 'precisionny'. To the eye the most obvious difference between the J and P basses is the PUP configuration (and body shape of course), and on that basis it makes sense to presume that this difference also drives the difference in sound. However, the substantive differences between the two basses, certainly in terms of tone, are to my mind much less than one would think. Some of the classic P-Bass sounds were played on heavy and old flats (e.g., Jamerson) whilst some of the classic Jazz sounds were played on probably new and light rounds (e.g., Miller). Perhaps the style of music played by proponents of the respective basses has to an extent driven public perceptions of what each is capable of? If you listen to Rocco Prestia playing his Precision, it doesn't sound like a classic Precision, and - excuse my ignorance in not being able to cite a particular player - I'm sure the same could be said of one of the classic Jazz proponents who perhaps plays heavy flats?

One of the most foolish things I've ever seen written about bass playing technique is that you can't play slap on a Precision, and I've seen it written many times! The truth is more likely that most people who play Precisions don't choose to play slap, certainly there is no reason why it is any harder to play slap on a PB, and mine are all great for it (although my technique ain't the best). In fact, if playing an oldish Precision, the greater string spacing at the top end of the neck actually facilitates slap technique over a Jazz. The point I'm making is that there is an image and an expectation of the Precision and of the Jazz respectively that may, in the real World, be more of a case of The Emporer's Invisible Clothes than a substantive and definitive difference in tone and playability between the two. I wonder if we conducted a survey, whether we'd find that a greater percentage of Jazzes than Precisions are strung with rounds rather than flats, or whether the average string gauge on Precisions is greater than the average string gauge on Jazzes? Similar questions might be whether more Jazzes than Precisions have active electronics, or whether the higher frets are more used on Jazzes than on Precisions? In other words, are they simply different basses because of different applications and expectation?

Anyway, IMHO, the above is why the JPJ configuration is not altogether a huge improvement in terms of tonal possibilities over either JJ or JP configs? This is especially true when it is considered that the PUPs on the Urge are extremely close to each other, picking up a relatively small range of the vibrating string over all three PUPs (ccmpare the PUP spacing on the Urge with, for example, that on the HS Stingrays, on which the two PUPs appear to be positioned a significantly greater distance apart at which positions, I can only assume, each picks a substantially different signal from the string?). That must too be a factor in similarity of tone.

Anyway, lecture over! Other BCers will almost certainly disagree with some or all of the above, and that's why I love this forum .

And yes, PUP height will make a difference.

Chris

PS I wonder how many different abbreviations for Precision can be derived: Fender Precision, Precision Bass, Precision, Fender P, P-Bass, PB, P. Looks like I used pretty much all of them above....

Edited September 29, 2007 by Beedster