Was our 'gig etiquette' really that bad?

[yituool]

The other night, my band played a gig, where there were two other bands playing. The headliners were expected to bring the backline, but we brought our own amps anyway. Seeing as the venue was up a narrow flight of stairs, we decided to just use the backline instead of hauling our gear up and cluttering the stage unnessecerily. So we were called over for sound check, with the band that the backline belonged to in the room. They helped us sort out their amps for our soundcheck, and then we played the soundcheck with no problems. An hour later, we played our set and stayed for the other bands afterwards. Everything went smoothly and there were no issues that evening.

The next day, the band that the backline belonged to sent us a message on myspace, about last nights gig, and there was a paragraph in it saying this:

"just for future reference for you guys though, backline does not mean borrowing other bands amp heads or drum breakables. as you can understand, our gear is worth a good few thousand ££ and when people just assume they can plug into to our amps without even asking or saying thanks it's never a good thing."

Now, we did not break anything. As far as we knew there was no problems that night. I think I remember us asking to use their amps and saying thanks, but I'm not 100% sure, so we mighta come across a bit rude, and I'm sorry about that. I always thought the point of a backline is so that there is gear that all the bands can use, eliminating the need for bands to haul lots of gear and clutter up the stage with equipment, and to generally make things easier. But to me, this band seems to be saying that the backline is just for one band. Have I just got it wrong?

[Tengu]

Sounds to me as if they have a very different definition of the phrase "back-line" to the rest of the world.

Did you have anything in writing that said the headliners were to provide backline? If you do you might want to point that out to them and then ask them to clarify what they think that covers.

Every musician that I know would use the term to cover any amps used on stage that are not front of house PA. In other words, the amps that are at the back.

[Pete Academy]

If we play a gig where there is another band playing, I always contact the band/bassist beforehand to check if it's OK to use their gear.

[yituool]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='615209' date='Oct 2 2009, 08:43 PM']If we play a gig where there is another band playing, I always contact the band/bassist beforehand to check if it's OK to use their gear.[/quote]

Well I think we asked the soundman, and he told us to use their gear.

[Golchen]

[quote name='yituool' post='615223' date='Oct 2 2009, 08:51 PM']Well I think we asked the soundman, and he told us to use their gear.[/quote]


Sounds a bit like you dun wrong to me.

[Moos3h]

I think with these things (although my experience is minimal as we're always the only band 'on') that the crucial thing is assume nothing and ALWAYS chat face-to-face with the actual owner of the gear YOU are going to use. Sod the guitarists and their Marshall arguements and sod the drummer with their 'well I'll use my own snare' conversations.

Look after yourself and your reputation - especially as bass gear is so easy to damage through inexpert use of EQ.

Cheers,
James

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='yituool' post='615188' date='Oct 2 2009, 08:21 PM']The headliners were expected to bring the backline.[/quote]
Expected by whom? Who told you that was expected? Were they a reliable source? And anyway, you can expect all you like but it means nothing if nothing has actually been clearly agreed by all parties in advance.

Even if it was clearly agreed in advance, I would always introduce myself to the other bassist and directly ask if it would be OK to use his gear. I'd always prefer to bring and use my own rig and I'd prefer that others did the same.

[WalMan]

Drummers I would sort of expect to be use your own cymbals, snare and possibly pedal - there are some shed builders who your drummer would probably not want laying into cymbals.

Backline I would take to mean amps & cabs.

You say you chatted with them re setups for the sound check and they left it to a MySpace message to have a go. Seems a bit of a cop out to me. If it was that much of a deal perhaps they should have grown a pair or two and said something on the night

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='yituool' post='615223' date='Oct 2 2009, 08:51 PM']Well I think we asked the soundman, and he told us to use their gear.[/quote]
There's your problem. Not his gear to offer out.

But I don't quite get why they were seemingly OK with it at the time, but left it till later to send you a slightly weird message.

[geilerbass]

It's all down to communication - something that I've found many bands, soundmen, promoters and venues frustratingly lacking in. A simple email/phone call before a gig to confirm what exactly is being brought and used by who is always the best approach rather than assuming that 'backline' is understood as what you understand it as by everyone else involved. It really irritates me how un-professional and lazy some parties can be when it comes to this side of gig organisation.

And even if you are pretty sure that a band has agreed to lend out their gear, it's always worth double-checking with the actual person who's gear you're using (the bassist) that it's okay, before you actually plug in. Some people in bands are often very quick to assume that their fellow band members are happy to lend out gear, without actually checking with them first.

My interpretation of backline, as a standard, is cabs/speakers and non-breakable drums (excluding snare) and hardware.

But from what you say, it sounds as though they are aware you were using their stuff - again it's down to communication. If they were unhappy with it, they should have said something their and then.

Edited October 3, 2009 by geilerbass

[yituool]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='615430' date='Oct 3 2009, 01:02 AM']Expected by whom? Who told you that was expected? Were they a reliable source? And anyway, you can expect all you like but it means nothing if nothing has actually been clearly agreed by all parties in advance.

Even if it was clearly agreed in advance, I would always introduce myself to the other bassist and directly ask if it would be OK to use his gear. I'd always prefer to bring and use my own rig and I'd prefer that others did the same.[/quote]

The promotor (who I think was also the soundman) e-mailed us telling that the headliners were bringing the backline.

I was willing to use my own rig, but my band members convinced me I could just use the backline, and that would be easier.

[yituool]

I also forgot to mention, there was a third band that night who also used the backline. When they set up and played, the band who the backline belonged to had gone off somewhere, and I don't think the other band asked the band either, as I did not see them at the venue at the same time.

[Wil]

Promotors can't be relied on to conmunicate with all parties most of the time. On the originals circuit backline is generally considered to be drumkit and cabs, but NEVER amps and drum breakables unless it's been agreed beforehand. I personally think it's good form to speak to the band lending regardless of what the promotor has said to check everything is ok to use.

[Cat Burrito]

I agree with the general view - this is a communciation problem. Always best just to double check with the owner of the gear. We always do & it saves any arguments. Not the end of the world but probably a small error on your part.

I haven't fallen out with a band since December 1994 (100s of gigs ago!) & that was over kit share. It's easily done if you aren't careful. I always try to make contact with bands on the bill before we play & match up drummers with drummers and guitarists with guitarists etc.

[TheButler]

I had an issue recently too. We had to borrow backline because all our amps were in for servicing or we didn't actually have one (me). The headliners had in their contract that they don't have to share equipment with other bands. However, due to us both being on the same label we came to an agreement that we use their gear and they kip at our guitarist's flat. They were really decent blokes too, i'm sure they'd have just let us use them, but whatever.

Oh, and my interpretation of 'backline' as regards gigging is just drum 'breakables' and cabs. Backline really does mean [i]everything[/i] at the back i suppose, but oh well.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Wil' post='615528' date='Oct 3 2009, 10:10 AM']On the originals circuit backline is generally considered to be drumkit and cabs, but NEVER amps and drum breakables unless it's been agreed beforehand.[/quote]
I'd much rather lend out my head than my cab. Cabs are surely much more breakable? Mind you, if the person borrowing doesn't understand impedance, then it could be bye-bye head too...

[jonny-lad]

If you brought your own backline just in case, and the band who owned the backline you used helped you set it up to use it, I don't think you did anything wrong.

You had the possibility of needing you own gear covered and there appears to have been adequate opportunity for the other band to suggest (or even insist) that you use your own, which would be quite understandable IMO. What is a bit difficult to understand is why they chose to suggest it in a myspace message the day after rather than just saying it to your face before you soundchecked.

Lack of communication skills if you ask me. If I were you, I'd explain that you had your own backline with you and were willing to use it if that's what they wanted...you just needed to know before you started playing.

Edited October 3, 2009 by jonny-lad

[wotnwhy]

asking the band members personally, and making quite a point of thanking them for being so generous with their gear is pretty important. a quick 'cheers mate' as you walk passed them should not suffice. should be common place in all aspects of life.

and cymbals and snare are not usually something that is lent out with the kit

[yituool]

[quote name='wotnwhy' post='615617' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:06 PM']asking the band members personally, and making quite a point of thanking them for being so generous with their gear is pretty important. a quick 'cheers mate' as you walk passed them should not suffice. should be common place in all aspects of life.

and cymbals and snare are not usually something that is lent out with the kit[/quote]

The drummer did bring and use his own cymbals and snare

[Wil]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='615587' date='Oct 3 2009, 11:16 AM']I'd much rather lend out my head than my cab. Cabs are surely much more breakable? Mind you, if the person borrowing doesn't understand impedance, then it could be bye-bye head too...[/quote]

Once we played a gig where we were headlining, and one of the support bands announced that they hadn't brought amps. The bassist had even somehow forgotten his bass! In a fit of generosity I lent him my US Jazz, but that's another story. Our guitarist said they could not use his valve combo, as was his right. They did anyway, behind his back, and tried turning it on with no cab connected - one dead amp. Idiots like that are why I dont think heads are an acceptable part of backline.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Wil' post='615619' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:10 PM']Once we played a gig where we were headlining, and one of the support bands announced that they hadn't brought amps. The bassist had even somehow forgotten his bass! In a fit of generosity I lent him my US Jazz, but that's another story. Our guitarist said they could not use his valve combo, as was his right. They did anyway, behind his back, and tried turning it on with no cab connected - one dead amp. Idiots like that are why I dont think heads are an acceptable part of backline.[/quote]
Fair enough. I've never had a head that couldn't cope with having no cab connected. It's probably a good thing -- I'd have killed a fair few of my own by now if I had.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='TheButler' post='615578' date='Oct 3 2009, 11:06 AM']Oh, and my interpretation of 'backline' as regards gigging is just drum 'breakables' and cabs. Backline really does mean [i]everything[/i] at the back i suppose, but oh well.[/quote]


I agree.

[Wil]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='615626' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:17 PM']Fair enough. I've never had a head that couldn't cope with having no cab connected. It's probably a good thing -- I'd have killed a fair few of my own by now if I had. [/quote]

It's only valve amps you need to worry about, solid state heads are fine, but the fact not everyone knows this is another good reason I wouldn't be happy lending out my head as backline

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Wil' post='615655' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:46 PM']It's only valve amps you need to worry about, solid state heads are fine, but the fact not everyone knows this is another good reason I wouldn't be happy lending out my head as backline [/quote]
I thought it wasn't quite that straightforward a distinction. I'm sure I've heard of valve heads with a dummy load that means they can survive being switched on unloaded. And I'm sure I've heard of SS heads that can die without loads. Or they at least cry a bit and wet themselves or something.

[Guest MoJo]

There's certainly a lesson to be learned here....what you should have done, in my opinion, is arrive at the venue with your own gear as you did and seek out the bass player with the headlining band. Explain that you have your own gear with you but in the interest of saving space on stage and to save time breaking down your own gear after your set, would it be possible to use his/her rig instead. You'll find most bass players, if appraoched in this manner, would probably say yes.