Was our 'gig etiquette' really that bad?

[cheddatom]

swapping drum kits over for every band on a 4 band originals night? You might be quick to change over, but not THAT quick.

[Doddy]

If you've got your act together,you can change the entire band over,gear and all,in
under 10 mins-I've done it.
And when most original nights that I've done usually have about a 15 min or so change over time,there is
plenty of time to change over.

[Zombywoof]

[quote name='Doddy' post='626027' date='Oct 14 2009, 02:17 PM']If you've got your act together,you can change the entire band over,gear and all,in
under 10 mins-I've done it.
And when most original nights that I've done usually have about a 15 min or so change over time,there is
plenty of time to change over.[/quote]

There might be the time but not always the room, unless you pack up your gear and get it out into cars/van the very instant you stop playing. Then you have to either take it home or hang around outside with your beer to stand guard over it all. Personally I like to hang out after a gig and have a pint with the people who've bothered to turn up to see us play. As I said I've never had a problem with other players using my gear and I've never had an issue with others letting me use theirs, it's the done thing down here in Bristol and helps to foster a community spirit amongst the muso's.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Doddy' post='626027' date='Oct 14 2009, 02:17 PM']If you've got your act together,you can change the entire band over,gear and all,in
under 10 mins-I've done it.
And when most original nights that I've done usually have about a 15 min or so change over time,there is
plenty of time to change over.[/quote]

It depends how much gear there is, surely? You couldn't do that with my old band.

[Doddy]

If everyone knows how to set up their own stuff it doesn't take long.

I've done gigs where the band has loaded in,set up-PA aswell- and started playing in
around half an hour. I don't see any reason why you couldn't set up your own backline in around
10 mins. It's all about efficiency.

[Shockwave]

When i start gigging seriously again i want to put together some sort of contract, that if anyone wants to use my gear and something goes wrong with it whilst they are playing with it that i am legally entitled to be compensated. Dont suppose anyone else has this sort of contract? (I dont want a Ampeg or Barefaced destroyed and the other guy running off) If they dont want to sign it then tough.

In reference to the OP, i always ring ahead of time to see whats happening about backline, and to define backline and breakables. NEVER trust the promoters on their word.

[MythSte]

I suppose it also depends on the size of the show. If we where to play for the BBC or something, We'd take all our own gear. But at a grungy club in manchester its just a given that either the venue or the headlining act supply drum kit and bass amp. Hmm.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Doddy' post='627042' date='Oct 15 2009, 04:11 PM']If everyone knows how to set up their own stuff it doesn't take long.

I've done gigs where the band has loaded in,set up-PA aswell- and started playing in
around half an hour. I don't see any reason why you couldn't set up your own backline in around
10 mins. It's all about efficiency.[/quote]

I hope i'm not getting the wrong end of the stick here, it seems to me you think that your 10 minutes change over time should apply as a maximum for every band no matter what the venue is like or how much gear there is.

In the band I was in (no logo) I had 2 pedal boards to carry onto stage and plug in, as well as two amps. The guitarist had an amp and a pedalboard, and the drummer used around 10 cymbals. For all of our gigs, the drums were the only thing we would borrow, and the only thing we'd share. Our drummer would take his own stands and set up all his cymbals if the venue had room for them to be left on the side. This means all we had to do was wait for the other band to get their gear off, put the cymbals (already on stands) pedals, amps, on stage, wired up, and then tune up guitars. We got this down to around 5 minutes at the very quickest.

If the stage is difficult to get to or a difficult shape, if the store room is untidy or up or down stairs, if the drum kit had a rack instead of stands, or worse still, if we had to get a drum kit off the stage and then set up a new one from scratch!!

Then add on the time it takes for the previous band to shift off.

I think timing is a perfectly legitimate reason for sharing a drum kit. I don't really understand why the convention extends to bass amps, but it does.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='627054' date='Oct 15 2009, 04:24 PM'](I dont want a Ampeg or Barefaced destroyed and the other guy running off)[/quote]

If you're using a high power amp bridged, then I'd be inclined to switch it to non-bridged mode (and change the speakon over) when letting bassists you don't know share your rig. With one channel of the SVT5 driving the Vintage it'll still be damned loud and be virtually 100% safe from damage.

Alex

[MythSte]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='627071' date='Oct 15 2009, 03:42 PM']I don't really understand why the convention extends to bass amps, but it does.[/quote]

Probably because most venues take a DI to the PA before the amp, meaning the amp is just for stage noise.

[eightball]

i think the problem is cultural; a lot of 'promoters' just try and stick on as many bands as they can in order to secure ticket sales (glasgow is rife with this).

in my experience, with 5 odd bands on, 3 of them will be utter sh*te, 1 will be okay, and 1 good. the decent bands will pretty much bring their own heads etc. i ALWAYS bring my own head, and cabs if i can't find out whats there before hand/know that it's a crap rig.

the way i see it, 5 bands using my rig is 4 more gigs closer to potential problems i am. that's assuming the other users have a clue. i've been playing a fair while, and in that time done my fair share of touring - you would never expect other people to provide your gear.

due to this 'ticket culture', younger players assume that they can turn up with a bass (in many cases not even a cable), and plug into whatever is there because someone else will provide an amp won't they? in a sense, it's not their fault - it what's been learned.

i have no problem saying no, in fact, i have over 1000 reasons worth of rig to say no! we always make it clear that at our shows cabs (bass and guitar) and drums (minus snare, pedal and cymbals) will be provided. more often than not, another player will rock up with a 30w combo, see my rig, and decide they'd rather use the big amp. it's a bit rubbish to be put in the position though, where you really don't want your gear destroyed, and are being made to look like you're a bugger for not letting all and sundry use it.

[ryan_waf]

I'd just like to clear this up, found it as I'm looking for reviews of some Sansamp gear and came across this, pretty shocked to find out it's actually about my band.

Firstly, we were not headlining the night or providing the backline (as we were an out of town band, we thought it didn't make sense for us to headline and the local band play earlier). We have no problem lending out gear, we know what it's like to start up in bands and not really have that great gear; the problem we had with this was that the band opening (who started this thread) did NOT ask permission to borrow any of our heads (which, in our experience, are not classed as backline) but went straight up on stage for their sound check and plugged in then started moaning when they couldn't get them to work (not knowing where the on switch was). (For information, I play an Ampeg which has taken me years to save up for, and our guitarist plays a nice Orange Rocker which he has also saved for years for.)
We let them use it after showing them how to work it and asking if they could make sure they left all the settings how they found them, call me old fashioned but was expecting a thank you for helping them out, alas nothing. So we let it go, walked off and got a beer to chill a little bit. Went back upstairs to watch them (polite thing to do...), thinking 'maybe they'll say thanks on stage, you know, like most bands do who borrow gear.' Again, nothing, even as we went on to set things up for us to play, no thanks, nothing, which I found a bit rude but thought 'seems like it could be their first gig, so we'll leave it.'
I think they drummer had asked our drummer if he could borrow cymbals and snare as he didn't bring his (got his snare in the end, but still borrowed our cymbals), so that was fine, as he asked and said thank you.

The next day, we had a message from said band to our myspace, thinking 'oh cool, they've thought to say thanks, maybe it just slipped their mind.' But no, was just asking if we'd picked up a lead they left; which then prompted me to send the message which this thread was started about (I've copied the full message below for you to see what was said...)

[b]sup guys,

i'll check with the others about that guitar lead.

just for future reference for you guys though, backline does not mean borrowing other bands amp heads or drum breakables. as you can understand, our gear is worth a good few thousand ££ and when people just assume they can plug into to our amps without even asking or saying thanks it's never a good thing.
it was your first gig so its understandable, but just so you know, some bands would not have kept quiet about it like we did; it's just gig etiquette to say thanks for any equipment borrowed, especially when it's gear that is not supposed to be borrowed.

ryan x[/b]

I might be old fashioned, but even if previously agreed with bands / promoters that backline is okay to borrow, I'll still ask the bassist and make sure I say thanks to them, same with each of our members depending on whats borrowed, simple manners.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='ryan_waf' post='630484' date='Oct 19 2009, 04:24 PM']I might be old fashioned, but even if previously agreed with bands / promoters that backline is okay to borrow, I'll still ask the bassist and make sure I say thanks to them, same with each of our members depending on whats borrowed, simple manners.[/quote]



Couldn't agree more.

[eightball]

[quote name='ryan_waf' post='630484' date='Oct 19 2009, 04:24 PM']I'd just like to clear this up, found it as I'm looking for reviews of some Sansamp gear and came across this, pretty shocked to find out it's actually about my band.

Firstly, we were not headlining the night or providing the backline (as we were an out of town band, we thought it didn't make sense for us to headline and the local band play earlier). We have no problem lending out gear, we know what it's like to start up in bands and not really have that great gear; the problem we had with this was that the band opening (who started this thread) did NOT ask permission to borrow any of our heads (which, in our experience, are not classed as backline) but went straight up on stage for their sound check and plugged in then started moaning when they couldn't get them to work (not knowing where the on switch was). (For information, I play an Ampeg which has taken me years to save up for, and our guitarist plays a nice Orange Rocker which he has also saved for years for.)
We let them use it after showing them how to work it and asking if they could make sure they left all the settings how they found them, call me old fashioned but was expecting a thank you for helping them out, alas nothing. So we let it go, walked off and got a beer to chill a little bit. Went back upstairs to watch them (polite thing to do...), thinking 'maybe they'll say thanks on stage, you know, like most bands do who borrow gear.' Again, nothing, even as we went on to set things up for us to play, no thanks, nothing, which I found a bit rude but thought 'seems like it could be their first gig, so we'll leave it.'
I think they drummer had asked our drummer if he could borrow cymbals and snare as he didn't bring his (got his snare in the end, but still borrowed our cymbals), so that was fine, as he asked and said thank you.

The next day, we had a message from said band to our myspace, thinking 'oh cool, they've thought to say thanks, maybe it just slipped their mind.' But no, was just asking if we'd picked up a lead they left; which then prompted me to send the message which this thread was started about (I've copied the full message below for you to see what was said...)

[b]sup guys,

i'll check with the others about that guitar lead.

just for future reference for you guys though, backline does not mean borrowing other bands amp heads or drum breakables. as you can understand, our gear is worth a good few thousand ££ and when people just assume they can plug into to our amps without even asking or saying thanks it's never a good thing.
it was your first gig so its understandable, but just so you know, some bands would not have kept quiet about it like we did; it's just gig etiquette to say thanks for any equipment borrowed, especially when it's gear that is not supposed to be borrowed.

ryan x[/b]

I might be old fashioned, but even if previously agreed with bands / promoters that backline is okay to borrow, I'll still ask the bassist and make sure I say thanks to them, same with each of our members depending on whats borrowed, simple manners.[/quote]

+1 - pretty much agree with this (from the same experience!). on the bright side - at least it led you to basschat! Welcome!

Edited October 19, 2009 by eightball

[yituool]

[quote name='ryan_waf' post='630484' date='Oct 19 2009, 04:24 PM']I'd just like to clear this up, found it as I'm looking for reviews of some Sansamp gear and came across this, pretty shocked to find out it's actually about my band.

Firstly, we were not headlining the night or providing the backline (as we were an out of town band, we thought it didn't make sense for us to headline and the local band play earlier). We have no problem lending out gear, we know what it's like to start up in bands and not really have that great gear; the problem we had with this was that the band opening (who started this thread) did NOT ask permission to borrow any of our heads (which, in our experience, are not classed as backline) but went straight up on stage for their sound check and plugged in then started moaning when they couldn't get them to work (not knowing where the on switch was). (For information, I play an Ampeg which has taken me years to save up for, and our guitarist plays a nice Orange Rocker which he has also saved for years for.)
We let them use it after showing them how to work it and asking if they could make sure they left all the settings how they found them, call me old fashioned but was expecting a thank you for helping them out, alas nothing. So we let it go, walked off and got a beer to chill a little bit. Went back upstairs to watch them (polite thing to do...), thinking 'maybe they'll say thanks on stage, you know, like most bands do who borrow gear.' Again, nothing, even as we went on to set things up for us to play, no thanks, nothing, which I found a bit rude but thought 'seems like it could be their first gig, so we'll leave it.'
I think they drummer had asked our drummer if he could borrow cymbals and snare as he didn't bring his (got his snare in the end, but still borrowed our cymbals), so that was fine, as he asked and said thank you.

The next day, we had a message from said band to our myspace, thinking 'oh cool, they've thought to say thanks, maybe it just slipped their mind.' But no, was just asking if we'd picked up a lead they left; which then prompted me to send the message which this thread was started about (I've copied the full message below for you to see what was said...)

[b]sup guys,

i'll check with the others about that guitar lead.

just for future reference for you guys though, backline does not mean borrowing other bands amp heads or drum breakables. as you can understand, our gear is worth a good few thousand ££ and when people just assume they can plug into to our amps without even asking or saying thanks it's never a good thing.
it was your first gig so its understandable, but just so you know, some bands would not have kept quiet about it like we did; it's just gig etiquette to say thanks for any equipment borrowed, especially when it's gear that is not supposed to be borrowed.

ryan x[/b]

I might be old fashioned, but even if previously agreed with bands / promoters that backline is okay to borrow, I'll still ask the bassist and make sure I say thanks to them, same with each of our members depending on whats borrowed, simple manners.[/quote]

Anyway, about those guitar leads...

[Shambo]

Six of one and half a dozen of the other then... just a misunderstanding brought about by a lack of communication. Nevermind...gives us all something to talk about on the internets.

[quote name='Doddy' post='626007' date='Oct 14 2009, 02:02 PM']What it is ultimately down to,is lazy sound engineers who can't be bothered with the hassle of
a couple of plugs.[/quote]
Haha! That old chestnut. It must all have been the feckless sound engineers fault.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='ryan_waf' post='630484' date='Oct 19 2009, 04:24 PM']I might be old fashioned, but even if previously agreed with bands / promoters that backline is okay to borrow, I'll still ask the bassist and make sure I say thanks to them, same with each of our members depending on whats borrowed, simple manners.[/quote]

I agree. It seems the answer to the thread title is yes!

[geilerbass]

I think the lesson for this is to never assume anything when playing a gig and to make double sure that, if you have been offered backline, what it includes. And regardless of what happens and who borrows what, show some friendliness, gratitude and respect to your fellow performers - the music industry is all about networking anyway, so surely coming across as considerate and professional should be a high priority.

[munkonthehill]

hola there, ok folks dig this, im not sure if i should be annoyed about this or not, however i am fukin scunnered.

About 3weeks ago i was told that my band was offered a slot at a charity doo, we would be going on first then a chap who organised the nights band would be on second. all seems well so far.

We got confirmation it was cool to use their amps and drums.

When i arrived(bass in hand) it turns out my best wee pal is the bassist in the main band, when i told him we were told we were playing he knew nothing about it!!!!!!!!!! He of course said it was cool to use his amp(I actually gave him the amp, how ironic i have to ask to use it).

we are told we can play till 9 as the main band are going on at that time. we manage about 4 songs then the singer/guitarist/w***er tells us thats time,
he then puts on an IPOD for the next 30minutes.

At the break i spoke with the other guitarist, drummer and bassist and ask if we can maybe get another shot, they all say aye no problem as they want to hear what we have to offer. The singer/guitarist/w***er says 'no mate, its our gig' awkward moment as I then called him a prick.

So is it me thats out of order? I didnt want to go to the charity night but as i was getting to play i made an exception, the night was then filled with me shouting prick and w***er at the guy!!!!!!!!!!! not my proudest moment, however I felt it was justified

I have also posted this in my own thread,,,,,i really want folks opinion before i go postal

[Adrenochrome]

Amp heads are backline, so it looks there were mistakes all round, with the gig promoter/organiser especially not doing their job.

[umph]

[quote name='yituool' post='615188' date='Oct 2 2009, 07:21 PM']The other night, my band played a gig, where there were two other bands playing. The headliners were expected to bring the backline, but we brought our own amps anyway. Seeing as the venue was up a narrow flight of stairs, we decided to just use the backline instead of hauling our gear up and cluttering the stage unnessecerily. So we were called over for sound check, with the band that the backline belonged to in the room. They helped us sort out their amps for our soundcheck, and then we played the soundcheck with no problems. An hour later, we played our set and stayed for the other bands afterwards. Everything went smoothly and there were no issues that evening.

The next day, the band that the backline belonged to sent us a message on myspace, about last nights gig, and there was a paragraph in it saying this:

"just for future reference for you guys though, backline does not mean borrowing other bands amp heads or drum breakables. as you can understand, our gear is worth a good few thousand ££ and when people just assume they can plug into to our amps without even asking or saying thanks it's never a good thing."

Now, we did not break anything. As far as we knew there was no problems that night. I think I remember us asking to use their amps and saying thanks, but I'm not 100% sure, so we mighta come across a bit rude, and I'm sorry about that. I always thought the point of a backline is so that there is gear that all the bands can use, eliminating the need for bands to haul lots of gear and clutter up the stage with equipment, and to generally make things easier. But to me, this band seems to be saying that the backline is just for one band. Have I just got it wrong?[/quote]

backline has always been cabs and drum skeleton, heads and breakables should be supplied by the other bands.

[witterth]

If I were a drummer,
I wouldn't consider any of my kit (sic) "skeleton" as such.
even cymbal stands cost!!
BTW I've worked damn'd hard for (and paid for) ALL my gear and kind of resent "lending" it out.
Iv'e had some very negative experiences from doing so, as well, (bust cones,shagg@#d pre/power amp) so chancers with no car? nine danke.
I know some gigs (charity ones e.c.t.)require/stipulate, back line supplied, but when Its MY gear.. well......I...I....I..phwerrr... do you get my point?
sorry to "rant" but I mean it
W

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I went to a jam night the other week in Croydon. After I had been with my lot, I put my bass in the gigbag. The jam night organiser came up to me a bit later and told me there was someone that wanted to play bass with the next band up, but he didn't have a bass so could he borrow mine?

I felt a bit of a ar5e saying no, but I didn't know this bloke from Adam, so I wasn't going to trust a total stranger not to scratch up my pride & joy. Perhaps people assume that my CIJ mustang is some kind of cheapo bass as its not as big as a 'proper bass'. Of course it isn't - the current RRP for a new one is £739.99. I almost feel like in future I should not go to jam nights as getting the skunkeye from this chap's bandmates put a bit of a dampener on the evening for me. Or maybe I should make a point of taking one of my weird little Ashborys instead.

[spacecowboy]

In my experience "Backline" means Cabinets and Drums only, I and my band always take our own Amp Heads and the drummer takes his own snare*s* and cymbals, the last two gigs we have played the other two bands just used our gear as it "made things easier" nothing to do with the fact that we rolled up with a vox stack, orange stack, and my Hartke and Markbass stack and the headlining band who were providing backline brought Marshall Practice amps....

I personally hate when a band just assumes they can use my gear and don't bring anything to the gig, what were they planning to do if i didn't bring anything? I get Especially riled up when a headlining band bring nothing to the show, thats the real joke.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='643245' date='Nov 2 2009, 11:12 AM']The jam night organiser came up to me a bit later and told me there was someone that wanted to play bass with the next band up, but he didn't have a bass so could he borrow mine? I felt a bit of a ar5e saying no, but I didn't know this bloke from Adam, so I wasn't going to trust a total stranger not to scratch up my pride & joy....getting the skunkeye from this chap's bandmates put a bit of a dampener on the evening for me.[/quote]
Perhaps I'm old-fashioned. This sad individual shows up to a jam night without an instrument and presumes to diss (or condone the dissing of) someone for not lending them gear?

He is clearly an ill-mannered 'Gimme-Gimme, woss your problem, mate?' skidmark on the underpants of Rock & Roll, and someone upon whom I would not bestow the steam off my p155, let alone a fine little Mustang.

Feeling a bit of an ar5e?!? FFS! You are absolutely entitled to do what you like with your gear. His feeble little 'bandmates' should hang their heads in shame, should they not be too busy turning tricks in sc@t bars to raise the cash for a new 'band' plectrum.

I'm feeling rather BBC-ish this morning.

Edited November 2, 2009 by skankdelvar