Am I out of order?

[Golchen]

Hmmmn, I'm 50/50 on this. I totally agree with the 'learn it before rehearsal' thing, but solos are much harder to play than the rest of the song (generally) and they take more work getting right. Also, if you're the guitarist playing the solo it's YOU in the spotlight at that moment and you'll look a right nerd if you fluff it up live.

I agree with the chill out over a pint and discuss it route, explain your irritation and let him have his say as well.

[pete.young]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='615318' date='Oct 2 2009, 10:27 PM']I would have thought that the guitarist practising the whole song, [i]particularly [/i]the transitions to and from the solo, would be more useful than just doing the solo in isolation.[/quote]
+1 for that. Transitions, starts, finishes, they're the three places where things can fall apart.

[ezbass]

Not out of order at all. It annoys the crap out of me that I put a lot of effort into learning my parts only to pitch up rehearsal only having to listen to the original so others can learn their's then. It's a waste of everybody's time and mocks the effort of those who have bothered have made. For sure you may need to go over the solos (or whatever) in a rehearsal to make gel as a unit, but everyone should know their parts beforehand. Lead singers and lead guitarists, can't work with them, can't hack their bodies into little pieces and feed them to the foxes

Edited October 3, 2009 by ezbass

[BigRedX]

Is this originals or covers? If it's covers then the guitarist has no excuse because his solo should be the very least close to what's on the recording you're trying to emulate. If it's originals and he's needing more than his normal share of the rehearsal time to get it right then he should take steps to correct this. If he needs more practice then maybe he should consider recording the rest of the band so he can go away and get his bit right in his own time.

For me band rehearsal time is for practising playing as a band and if you write by jamming together then doing that.

[GreeneKing]

It is covers, I could understand the need to be more creative as a group if it were originals.

Oh well, the hint has been made, maybe he'll change. We've all had an honest chat over a pint several times, particularly about the lengthy chord playing, fiddling around and tuning between each song but alas it makes no difference. We've also talked about his need to put the band down, particularly himself when talking to anyone listening. He thinks it's just being self effacing and the rest of us think it's totally wrong. Last night a couple of friends stopped by and off he went again To me it's saying 'we're not very good, and it you enjoy it then your taste is obviously suspect' and is a very dangerous thing to do.

As I have said before I hang on in looking for something better. Over 12 months of practise (valuable in itself when you're coming from being a 'bedroom player') and only the one gig with a very 'gentle' audience.

That says a lot. I know that my learning curve needs steepening and it's presently flattening right out.

[Cat Burrito]

I can see your point but having recently been playing lead guitar too it's nice to go through the solos with a backing. One way around this is to have the rhythm guitarist get together with the lead guitarist away from rehearsal so he can get his chops down tighter. As a bass player who now plays guitar as well, this is what I did for my solos - so as not to lose the interest of the singer.

I do find it usually the singer and the lead guitarist who tend to cause problems as a rule.

[witterth]

Hi Greenking

I notice in an earlier post you mention you're a counsellor,I thought that was interesting.
your diplomatic/empathatic way of dealing with this problem too, is "spot on" as the "putting the band down" in public, bit, no doubt Pi##es you & your band mates off ,especially after spending time rehearsing!! ( evidently for said guitar players benefit!)

well I was thinking (and I'm not being sarcastic or glib BTW) there may well be an interesting thread in "band members I have known/know, who may have Aspergers symdrome"

In my experince, anyway, there's loads of them "types"of guys out there, and we don't often identify them because we assume the "creative" aspect of music would have somehow excluded them.do you get my train of thought?

It is also possible he's just a git however

[GreeneKing]

I'm a firm believer in that we are all somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum and yes you are right. I don't think he fits particularly into the AS model. His tendency is to spend it fair bit of time down the pub and I think the whole band thing is about his self image as a 'rocker'. I think that unconsciously 'his' band fills his narcissistic needs but the threat from actually performing is to great as he has much insecurity. The only problem with this is if he's not honest about it either to himself or others. It's leading us all up the 'garden path'.

I've tried to organise a 2nd local jam night just to get up in front of an audience and he's just a moment ago come up and said that work commitments mean he can't do it yet again.I'm sure it's totally genuine certainly predictable in the extreme.

Over a year of practice and one gig - some sort of a record perhaps and I'm slowly losing the will to live

[JTUK]

Well, first off, it is good that you want to gig, but since you don't seem over worked or burdened, see what else is out there.

See if you fancy a few Jam nights or at least go along and see what they entail and whether you think they are for you.
I am a great believer that you should just get out there and do it...
Organsing a local jam night is a good idea... but you might invite more outside influences if you go to someone's elses..
Not so insular and another perspective, maybe..?

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='615610' date='Oct 3 2009, 11:57 AM']...I think the whole band thing is about his self image as a 'rocker'. I think that unconsciously 'his' band fills his narcissistic needs but the threat from actually performing is to great as he has much insecurity. The only problem with this is if he's not honest about it either to himself or others. It's leading us all up the 'garden path'.

I've tried to organise a 2nd local jam night just to get up in front of an audience and he's just a moment ago come up and said that work commitments mean he can't do it yet again.I'm sure it's totally genuine certainly predictable in the extreme.

Over a year of practice and one gig - some sort of a record perhaps and I'm slowly losing the will to live [/quote]
He's obviously holding the band back from doing what the rest of the band joined for - ie playing in front of an audience. If he's not the same page as the rest of the band its time to tell him its time to p155 or get off the pot.

Perhaps you may not want to be quite as blunt as that, so getting a additional guitarist in the band (they're ten a penny in most areas) would be the answer. That way they can do the stones thing weaving in & out of each others lines, or one acoustic/one electric or good old rhythm & lead. If he then can't/won't do a rehearsal/gig/jam night - no problem the other will be able to.

Otherwise do the jam night without him. Prepare some rock standards everyone knows and borrow a guitarist on the night from another band.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Jean-Luc Pickguard

[nick]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='615532' date='Oct 3 2009, 10:18 AM']It is covers, I could understand the need to be more creative as a group if it were originals.[/quote]

Echoing a lot the other comments made, I don't think you're not at all out of order. This is one of the reasons I've just left a covers band I was in.
Rehearsal time isn't free & not for working out parts IMO. All band members should at least try to do their homework beforehand.

Edited October 3, 2009 by nick

[WHUFC BASS]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='615356' date='Oct 2 2009, 11:05 PM']Reminds of another frustrating practice habit that he can't overcome despite my repeated fairly gentle 'hints'. Between each number we have the shuffle of paperwork (he doesn't learn his lyrics and needs a music stand with chords and words), the playing of random chords and much tuning where everyone has to be quiet despite his inline tuner. We are always waiting around for him. Given a gig he's the same, very amateurish imho.[/quote]

Thats a pet hate of mine. People should sort their sound out before the start of rehearsing and after the first song, levels and sound should be sorted out. I can't stand people playing in between songs, especially when you are trying to talk to a band member about something and you're getting drowned out. Even more so at gigs. Playing randomly in between songs at gigs is just plain unprofessional. Drummers are notorious for this.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='WHUFC BASS' post='615704' date='Oct 3 2009, 02:13 PM']Thats a pet hate of mine. People should sort their sound out before the start of rehearsing and after the first song, levels and sound should be sorted out. I can't stand people playing in between songs, especially when you are trying to talk to a band member about something and you're getting drowned out. Even more so at gigs. Playing randomly in between songs at gigs is just plain unprofessional. Drummers are notorious for this.[/quote]

I call it musical Tourettes. Luckily on-one in either of the bands I play in now suffers from it. However in my last originals band, both the guitarists and the drummer had it. I can sort of understand it in drummers, because for a lot of them band rehearsal time is the only chance they get to play properly, but IMO for guitarists there is no excuse. It used to drive me mad - a couple of times I unplugged my bass while this was going off and went and sat down until they had all finished.

[NickH]

[quote]Reminds of another frustrating practice habit that he can't overcome despite my repeated fairly gentle 'hints'. Between each number we have the shuffle of paperwork (he doesn't learn his lyrics and needs a music stand with chords and words), the playing of random chords and much tuning where everyone has to be quiet despite his inline tuner. We are always waiting around for him. Given a gig he's the same, very amateurish imho.[/quote]

What an absolute monkey. Good luck getting the whole crowd in the pub to be quiet while he tunes! Punch in the nose incoming shortly I imagine

Seriously, dude - ditch this guy and get someone with a clue. You'll be happier and more relaxed, enjoy the music more, you'll get to do some gigs, and he'll be gently removed from the potential pasting he's very likely to receive. Everyone's a winner.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='NickH' post='615749' date='Oct 3 2009, 02:59 PM']What an absolute monkey. Good luck getting the whole crowd in the pub to be quiet while he tunes! Punch in the nose incoming shortly I imagine

Seriously, dude - ditch this guy and get someone with a clue. You'll be happier and more relaxed, enjoy the music more, you'll get to do some gigs, [b]and he'll be gently removed from the potential pasting he's very likely to receive[/b]. Everyone's a winner.[/quote]

[BB2000]

Peter, you've posted a few times now over a period of few months about your guitarist.

Given your professional background and your self acknowledged gentle approach to dealing with people I can't help wondering that to some extent you find yourself in this situation because you are not being blunt enough with your guitarist.

If your fellow band members also feel that the guitarist is holding the band back I would strongly suggest you simply give him an ultimatum. Give him a list of the things you (as a band) are not prepared to accept, and if he continues to do any of these things at the next practice ask him to leave. It really is as simple as that. Finding a new guitarist is likely to be less of a problem that you finding a new band. Take this approach even if the rest of the band don't have such a low opinion of the guitarist as you do, but do realise that he is holding the band back. If there isn't really a band leader at the moment I would then suggest you take on that role.

If the rest of the band would prefer to stick with the guitarist, I really think you would be as well leaving and looking for pastures new. There's no point in flogging a dead horse. Didn't you have a Norwegian lass express some interest in singing in a band a few weeks back? Why not call her and see if the pair of you could form the nucleus of a new outfit.

All JIMHO.

[steve-soar]

I'm having excactly the same problem with my guitarist. We rehearse once a week and I'm dreading each of them.
I show him the song that we will be working on (originals), I play in on guitar, I then show him any riffs etc, as he says he finds it hard to come up with original material.
We record it and he has a week to learn it but he would rather be playing X Box 360 in his spare time.
He has owned guitars for over fifteen years, I say owned as he can't play the bloody things, I can play better than him with the guitar upside down.

Glad I've shared that as it has started to do my head in.

[JTUK]

All sounds a like a lot of hard work and only those close to it can judge if they deem it worth it.

Personally, I wouldn't.

I think the basic requirement should be that people can do work on their own.. I am not looking for a note for note take but expect
the player to bring something of his own style. Some parts will take longer to get down but as long as the rehearsal shows the thing is progressing then I am happy to let things evolve on gigs.
For example, our keyboard player gets his part better and better after a few gigs but only musos really notice this...9/10 of the audience would miss it

As this is a very pleasant hobby for most of us now, rehearsals are at a premium. We'll go into out 1st gig without 5-6 3 hour sessions for a 2x45min set of new songs, not standards as such, and a couple of vocal brainstorms at someones house..

I don't know whether this is typical and it doesn't matter anyway, the poiint being that rehearsals must be productive and that works when everyone is pulling the same way and knows what they are doing or what is expected of them.

Away from a dep situtation which is really a very quick-study gig, I know the value of rehearsals but it doesn't mean I want to spend 6 months over them.. but if the situation deemed it and was worth it, then that is the way it would be...

It all comes down to what you want out of it, how realistic your goals are with the confines of your personel

If anyone has any issues, then maybe you should take matters in hand and deal with them... either leave or work through them, or whatever but there is NO point in being unhappy in a band..unless they pay you shedloads..IMV..

[skankdelvar]

Let me see if I've got this right:

[quote name='steve-soar' post='615872' date='Oct 3 2009, 05:22 PM']* I show him the song that we will be working on (originals),
* I play in on guitar,
* I then show him any riffs etc, as he says he finds it hard to come up with original material.
* We record it and he has a week to learn it[/quote]
That's not a guitarist. That's just someone [i]holding[/i] a guitar.

A £15 guitar stand would do the same job with less hassle.

[steve-soar]

Mr Skank, I'm afraid you are correct, he is a guitar stand.

[OldGit]

Just like to revise my view of your man Peter.
He's a looser. His reason for playing is to get out of the house and strumm away.
he sounds like the sort who will rehearse for ever ..

Anyone who tunes up audibly and noodles between tunes at gigs needs a good talking to and a dose of reality.
No excuse for it.

[neepheid]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='615532' date='Oct 3 2009, 10:18 AM']We've also talked about his need to put the band down, particularly himself when talking to anyone listening. He thinks it's just being self effacing and the rest of us think it's totally wrong. Last night a couple of friends stopped by and off he went again To me it's saying 'we're not very good, and it you enjoy it then your taste is obviously suspect' and is a very dangerous thing to do.

As I have said before I hang on in looking for something better. Over 12 months of practise (valuable in itself when you're coming from being a 'bedroom player') and only the one gig with a very 'gentle' audience.

That says a lot. I know that my learning curve needs steepening and it's presently flattening right out.[/quote]

Oh, that's a big no-no. NEVER apologise, NEVER cast doubt on the quality of the band. You don't have to tell everyone that you're the best band on the planet, but you certainly under no circumstances tell them you're the worst - even if you are.

Reading all this stuff makes me feel most grateful that I'm working in a band where weekly practice time is used efficiently enough that there's talk of going down to a fortnightly practice unless we've got a gig coming up to prevent things getting over rehearsed and stale. I am also grateful that our guitarist (and main composer) comes to rehearsals with mostly formed song ideas (he'll have a verse and chorus at least) and communicates them well to us. He can rattle off the chords he's just played from memory so I can work out where I should be. He has ideas about where the bass should go (which helps a noob like me) but he listens to me too when I suggest stuff. He tells the drummer what kind of beat he's looking for, without telling him exactly what to do - which I guess would be rather patronising. We'll leave that rehearsal with a semi-formed song, as well as interspersing rehearsing the old songs so we don't get bogged down in working out the new stuff.

Going back to your original point, I don't think you're out of order. I take the time to learn stuff ahead of time, sometimes to the extent of driving to our drummer's place (about 25 miles out of town) to work stuff out with him. It would really annoy me if someone had clearly not put in the effort to be at least half prepared. I can't comment on the delivery of your criticism to him.

Ultimately, you have to look after yourself. It's a hobby not a profession - if you're not liking it, change it. If you feel you're looking for a tougher challenge then go find it!

[BassBunny]

Hi Pete,
Believe me you are not out of order. The "widdling" all the time seems to be a common trait of guitarists. We suffered the same problem, that and not learning the numbers.
We ditched him....
We had a process whereby we would agree what we were going to learn and all agreed we would have our parts sorted for next rehearsal. He never did his bit, but did learn some irrelevant solo from a Steve Vai number we weren't doing.
At the end of the day I guess all you guys work during the day so rehersal time is valuable and you can't afford the time to what is basically covering up for the guy.
Dave Marks gave a great bit of advice at a recent Bass Day. "You need to try and play with people you like and respect."
I don't think this guy fits that profile.
I know you have been looking for another band, but if the rest of the guys feel the same as you and you get on well with them, the answer is obvious.

[waynepunkdude]

[url="http://videoeta.com/images/mvs/misc/homer_chinatown.mp3"]http://videoeta.com/images/mvs/misc/homer_chinatown.mp3[/url]

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='615254' date='Oct 2 2009, 09:22 PM']I wouldn't dream of using band practice to learn it as I feel that's down to me.



Peter[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I used to get fed up waiting around while someone has to listen to their ipod or be taught something while im paying for it.
I never found the right way of saying that to my band mates without it sounding like i was moaning or having a go so i never did. I would just get worked up later that i didnt say anything.

Ive never been in a band with a "leader" so wouldn't know if its out of order telling the band something without going through him/her first but as its common sense (to some) i cant see why it would upset most normal people.