Varying finger position in relation to fretlines on fretless bass

[EssentialTension]

Can anyone explain this:

[url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html"]http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html[/url]

[The Funk]

I don't know if that's legit or BS. I have no fretlines on my fretless so it doesn't really affect me. I'd be interested to know what others have to say about this.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='The Funk' post='616875' date='Oct 4 2009, 09:29 PM']I don't know if that's legit or BS. I have no fretlines on my fretless so it doesn't really affect me. I'd be interested to know what others have to say about this.[/quote]
I don't have any lines either but I want to know - even without lines, if there's something in it, it might affect how you set the intonation in relation to side dots.

[XB26354]

It is legit - you are setting intonation in relation to the lines. I used to have an Ibanez GWB and came across this issue. In the first example the 12th fret finger is almost a quarter tone sharp. As the "frets" are farther apart near the nut this means you would have to play further past the fret to be in tune. All Willis is saying is that setting up a lined fretless with intonation similar to a fretted bass means placing your finger so the edge is where the fret would have been. Of course it would be different on an unlined fretless as there aren't the same reference points.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='XB26354' post='616892' date='Oct 4 2009, 09:41 PM']It is legit - you are setting intonation in relation to the lines. I used to have an Ibanez GWB and came across this issue. In the first example the 12th fret finger is almost a quarter tone sharp. As the "frets" are farther apart near the nut this means you would have to play further past the fret to be in tune. [b]All Willis is saying is that setting up a lined fretless with intonation similar to a fretted bass means placing your finger so the edge is where the fret would have been.[/b] Of course it would be different on an unlined fretless as there aren't the same reference points.[/quote]
Thanks for the response but is that really all he's saying?

I read it as the positon of the finger in relation to the line will vary up and down the neck - if you set it up so the edge of the finger is where the fret would have been in one place it will not be so in another pace.

[BottomEndian]

Like I said [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=59631"]over here[/url], I haven't experienced the phenomenon in Gary Willis' pictures. In my [i]extremely[/i] scientific test (sample size: 2 ), I didn't find anything like that drift. I found that if I "set it like this for the 12th fret":

then I "might have to play like this in the first few frets":

Exactly the same everywhere.

And when I used to set up like this for the 12th fret:

I played like this all over the neck, and was bang in tune:


My SR5's a bit more accurate beyond the 12th than my VMJ, but it's much of a muchness. I don't understand how Gary Willis is getting his results. We need more tests, people!

Edited October 4, 2009 by BottomEndian

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='616931' date='Oct 4 2009, 10:13 PM']Like I said [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=59631"]over here[/url], I haven't experienced the phenomenon in Gary Willis' pictures. In my [i]extremely[/i] scientific test (sample size: 2 ), I didn't find anything like that drift.[/quote]
Hi BE, yes, I remember that thread - this one's a continuation of it because it has been worrying me.

I also remember you said you thought it wasn't correct whereas I thought it might be but I couldn't explain why.

Let's see what anyone else has got to say.

[The Funk]

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='The Funk' post='617016' date='Oct 4 2009, 11:33 PM'][/quote]
Yeah man, that's what I wanna know, what is Willis talking 'bout.

[Major-Minor]

I have a lined fretless and I only use those lines as rough guide. On the DB, we always talk about "adjusting" your intonation as you play ie if you are slightly out of tune on one note, you need to use that information to correct your positioning on the fingerboard so the following note is in tune. If you rely on the looking at the lines on a fretless you will always be out of tune because you are not letting your ears do the work.

Try practicing looking away from the bass, only glancing at the fingerboard when you make a large position jump. Listen closely to every note in relation to the last, and make adjustments as you go, using the occasional open string or harmonic to fix the pitch in your ears. And when you play with your band, focus on both your own intonation and, at the same time, the intonation of a fixed tuning instrument like say a keyboard or guitar. Make sure you are adjusting to that fixed pitch.

Of course this is only for when you want to be bang on in tune. The beauty of fretless (and DB) is that you can bend that intonation to create a more expressive performance.


The Major

[samkeen]

Some people are saying that they're in tune across the neck at the same point on the fret marker and Willis says he isn't - perhaps some luthiers are addressing the issue Willis came across and compensating the fret line position?

[Legion]

Maybe the link between these issues can be understood better by considering some of the rather heavy going musical theory available here:

[url="http://www.truetemperament.com"]http://www.truetemperament.com[/url]

Too much for my small brain though - I play my fretless by ear and dots (no lines)

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='617360' date='Oct 5 2009, 01:04 PM']I have a lined fretless and I only use those lines as rough guide. On the DB, we always talk about "adjusting" your intonation as you play ie if you are slightly out of tune on one note, you need to use that information to correct your positioning on the fingerboard so the following note is in tune. If you rely on the looking at the lines on a fretless you will always be out of tune because you are not letting your ears do the work.

Try practicing looking away from the bass, only glancing at the fingerboard when you make a large position jump. Listen closely to every note in relation to the last, and make adjustments as you go, using the occasional open string or harmonic to fix the pitch in your ears. And when you play with your band, focus on both your own intonation and, at the same time, the intonation of a fixed tuning instrument like say a keyboard or guitar. Make sure you are adjusting to that fixed pitch.

Of course this is only for when you want to be bang on in tune. The beauty of fretless (and DB) is that you can bend that intonation to create a more expressive performance.


The Major[/quote]
Thanks Major.

I do all those things and I don't in fact play a lined fretless but an unlined.

The point of my question was really about Willis's claim and an explanation for it.

Also, what are the implications for setting up the intonation on a fretless - if he is indeed correct - rather than about actually listening to the notes which I realise will always be essential.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='617423' date='Oct 5 2009, 01:57 PM']Thanks Major.

I do all those things and I don't in fact play a lined fretless but an unlined.

The point of my question was really about Willis's claim and an explanation for it.

Also, what are the implications for setting up the intonation on a fretless - if he is indeed correct - rather than about actually listening to the notes which I realise will always be essential.[/quote]
Dave
I don't understand your question ! How can you "set-up" the intonation on a fretless bass ? Surely that is what we do when we play the thing ie play in tune.
If you are referring to how the manufacturers actually place the lines, then that is too mathematical a question for me.

I've always found that, when using the lines as a visual guide, i have to place the finger directly on the line to be close to the correct intonation. But (and this is why I no longer rely on those lines) I once, many years ago, played my lined fretless at a live concert session which was being recorded for radio. The band was rather louder than I am used to, the monitoring was rather dodgy and we had minimal soundcheck time. I thought I was playing in tune at the time, but on hearing the broadcast, I was rather appalled to find that I was consistently a touch sharp throughout. I think i had been relying on my sight rather than my ears. Big mistake !

But this also throws up the question of intonation at high volume levels. Do we lose our sense of pitch as the noise level increases ?
I always wear ear defenders these days if I'm playing with a loud band and I feel more relaxed and confident about intonation as a result.

The Major

[mcgraham]

[quote]I don't understand your question ! How can you "set-up" the intonation on a fretless bass ? Surely that is what we do when we play the thing ie play in tune.[/quote]

If you adjust the saddles on a fretless as you would on a fretted, you alter the relative finger positions you need to play to be in tune I've experienced this issue before. You need to set up the relative intonation on a lined bass to match the way you like to play.

That's why my Wood&tronics is going to be unlined, that and the challenge... and the coolness factor

Mark

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='617501' date='Oct 5 2009, 02:57 PM']Dave
I don't understand your question ![/quote]
I know, which will be why you haven't addressed it. It was a question about a claim made on Gary Willis's website about setting up intonation on a lined fretless. I was asking if his claim was correct and if someone could explain the reason for what Willis says happens. I already knew from another thread that some people here thought Willis's claim didn't fit with their experience.

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='617501' date='Oct 5 2009, 02:57 PM']How can you "set-up" the intonation on a fretless bass ?[/quote]
Well, maybe it doesn't bother you but, generally speaking, I'd like to, for example, have the octave at close to 17" from the nut on all four strings. If I tweak the truss rod for a new set of strings then it will be necessary to adjust the bridge saddles to bring the intonation in line. Maybe you don't like to do that but I think you'll find many do. However, that is how you set-up the intonation on a fretless bass.

It will still be necessary to play it in tune.

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='617501' date='Oct 5 2009, 02:57 PM']... I've always found that, when using the lines as a visual guide, i have to place the finger directly on the line to be close to the correct intonation. ...[/quote]
So, to go back to my original question, do you think Willis has it wrong?

[velvetkevorkian]

I guess its possible that Gary Willis has never bothered to adjust the intonation of his bass? The behaviour he describes sounds similar to when a fretted bass is not intonated correctly, and as we've seen a lot of folk don't really bother with setting up fretless intonation in the same way as a fretted.

[endorka]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='617501' date='Oct 5 2009, 02:57 PM']But this also throws up the question of intonation at high volume levels. Do we lose our sense of pitch as the noise level increases ?[/quote]

I find that my perception of pitch becomes poorer at high volume levels, for another example I find it more difficult to "busk" unfamiliar tunes at high volumes than at low or moderate volumes. Whether this is due to the volume itself in relation to the ear, or due to the increased likelihood of the distortion from amps occuring at high volumes, I am uncertain.

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

I just put my fingers where the note is.

Seriously, though, I recommend people play the bass with their ears and not their eyes. I know thw fretlines are where the note is supposed to be etc but I also wouldn't rely on it in place of my ears (same with the dots on the side of the neck). Its the notes that matter not the technology. If you are not fretting consistently on/behind/in front of the lines, to me, the lines are in the wrong place, surely? That's why I went for an unlined fretless. Its all academic if you are reading a chart or utilisiing eye contact as a means of cueing yourselves.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='617620' date='Oct 5 2009, 04:27 PM']I guess its possible that Gary Willis has never bothered to adjust the intonation of his bass? The behaviour he describes sounds similar to when a fretted bass is not intonated correctly, and as we've seen a lot of folk don't really bother with setting up fretless intonation in the same way as a fretted.[/quote]
Well, his comment is from a page that is one of a series on how to intonate a bass so it hardly seems likely that he hasn't bothered to adjust the intonation.

[Doddy]

I actually have to agree with Willis on this one. On a Fretted instrument,you are generally
never going to be totally in tune over the whole of the fingerboard-hence innovations like the Buzz Feiten
system. And because you have quite a large area in which to place your finger,certain notes will always be
out of tune with no room for adjustment.
On a lined fretless,because the lines are where the frets would be,if you play precisely on the line you should notice this
'out of tune-ness',more so than on a fretted instrument,only now by rolling your finger slightly above or behind the
line,you are able to more accurately play the note in tune.

You shouldn't take the lines for granted. Playing a fretless requires more attention with the ear than a fretted
does. The lines can be a handy guide to the area of the note,but they can never be the exact note. You need to be able to hear
how much you need to adjust to keep in tune.