Light Cab Vs Heavey Cab

[Monz]

I have just spoken to Matamp and seeing as Tayste_2000 pinched my last 2x12 I'm having another one made this time with Neo speakers but with a higher power rating so I will report back and let you know how it compares with the first one. I'm wanting a slightly less Hi Fi sound and more like the 4x10's which they assure me they can acheive.

At this rate we will be able to have a matamp cab bash LOL

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='620822' date='Oct 8 2009, 06:07 PM']Labour intensive and don't lend themselves to mass manufacture.[/quote]
I'm sure that's what the boutique builders of lightweight cabs would like you to believe, but putting a bit of bracing inside a cab is not very labour intensive at all. Have you seen the inside of the lightweight Trace cabs? They are braced like nobody's business.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' post='620889' date='Oct 8 2009, 07:20 PM']I'm sure that's what the boutique builders of lightweight cabs would like you to believe, but putting a bit of bracing inside a cab is not very labour intensive at all. Have you seen the inside of the lightweight Trace cabs? They are braced like nobody's business.[/quote]

There is glueing in sticks and there is proper pre-stressing and tensioning. Stuff I mostly read about in small aircraft making books, light and stiff is a very important thing in aircraft.

[fenderiko]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='620865' date='Oct 8 2009, 06:54 PM']What they don't lend themselves to is high profit margins. [/quote]

Perhaps , but if that was the case then surly the mass production amp or cab makers would charge tiny bit less for their cabs and would make them tiny bit cheaper and make ton loads of money.
although labour [u][b]is[/b][/u] taken into account im more thinking about the actual cab which seem very heavy at times and extremely light in other depending on the makers.

if ,as some reckon Weight is not a factor for a good sound so why making the cab heavy ?

R

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='620919' date='Oct 8 2009, 07:42 PM']There is glueing in sticks and there is proper pre-stressing and tensioning. Stuff I mostly read about in small aircraft making books, light and stiff is a very important thing in aircraft.[/quote]
There are many lessons that could be learned from aircraft building but most of them come at a price. Let's face it, even plywood is an exotic material for most cab manufacturers. What's important in a speaker cab is stiffness and damping. Light is great but when you make a cabinet lighter, you risk compromising those qualities.

And by the way, in answer to fenderiko's question, there are already quite a few companies producing lightweight bass cabs. We've had lightweight PA cabs for decades, but making a half-decent lightweight bass cab is not quite so easy.

[stevie]

The Trace cabs, as far as I remember, Mr Foxen (sorry to be so formal ), use several interlocking circular braces - not just bits of sticks. They're not expensive either.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='620942' date='Oct 8 2009, 03:08 PM']so why making the cab heavy ? [/quote]Because it's cheaper. Many cab manufacturers make a big deal about using 3/4" plywood, as if that's a good thing. It's not. Manufacturers use 3/4" plywood because it will give an adequate result with minimal bracing and can be assembled by unskilled minimum wage help in less than two hours from start to finish. A properly braced cab made from 1/2" plywood will be significantly lighter than a cab made from 3/4", yet it will have the rigidity of a cab made from 1". But build time will be roughly doubled, as will the number of parts in inventory, so with the overwhelming majority of manufacturers that's not how it's done.

[Protium]

Fair play if they can make the cab faster, cheaper and get the same results at the end it doesn't make sense for them to mass produce them with thinner wood- it would just end in a thread on here titled "why are cabs so expensive"

[fenderiko]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='621073' date='Oct 8 2009, 10:08 PM']Because it's cheaper. Many cab manufacturers make a big deal about using 3/4" plywood, as if that's a good thing. It's not. Manufacturers use 3/4" plywood because it will give an adequate result with minimal bracing and can be assembled by unskilled minimum wage help in less than two hours from start to finish. A properly braced cab made from 1/2" plywood will be significantly lighter than a cab made from 3/4", yet it will have the rigidity of a cab made from 1". But build time will be roughly doubled, as will the number of parts in inventory, so with the overwhelming majority of manufacturers that's not how it's done.[/quote]


BRILLIANT !!!!!!!!!!!! now , that is what I was looking for !!!! thank you so much Bill !!!!!!

Yes, ofcourse they made light cabs for years (thanks for who ever pointed it out ) and of course some arent good . however, it seems a little strange to have the ability to make them lighter yet most makers (mostly of mass production ) simply do not bother as , like bill kindly pointed, it is cheaper to build them heavier.

thanks you !!!!!!

R

[fenderiko]

[quote name='Protium' post='621086' date='Oct 8 2009, 10:18 PM']Fair play if they can make the cab faster, cheaper and get the same results at the end it doesn't make sense for them to mass produce them with thinner wood- it would just end in a thread on here titled "why are cabs so expensive" [/quote]


good point !!!!!!!!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='620809' date='Oct 8 2009, 05:47 PM']you talked earlier about the 3 parameters, whilst you designed your cabs in your models did you have to sacrifice one parameter ( If I can call these parameter ) ? if so , which one ?[/quote]

It varies from model to model. The Midget is loud and small so doesn't go low. The Compact is equally loud but larger so it goes lower. The Big One is also equally loud but larger still so it goes even lower. The Vintage is louder but even larger so goes as low as the Compact, not the Big One. Bear in mind that the 'lowness' is a description of the unEQ'd bass extension - if you add bass boost to the Midget it will go as low as the Compact - but by adding bass boost you're requiring more power, so you're getting more lowness as the expense of loudness.

Alex

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='621073' date='Oct 8 2009, 10:08 PM']Because it's cheaper.[/quote]
That's a very simplistic view of the situation. Moulded plastic cabinets are both lighter and cheaper than wooden cabinets, for example.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='621073' date='Oct 8 2009, 10:08 PM']Many cab manufacturers make a big deal about using 3/4" plywood, as if that's a good thing. It's not. Manufacturers use 3/4-inch plywood because it will give an adequate result with minimal bracing and can be assembled by unskilled minimum wage help in less than two hours from start to finish. A properly braced cab made from 1/2-inch plywood will be significantly lighter than a cab made from 3/4", yet it will have the rigidity of a cab made from 1-inch.[/quote]
Professional cab builders have been using 3/4-inch birch ply for decades and have yet to find anything better. Talk to one! If you specify the very best material for your bass cabinet, you will get 3/4-inch birch plywood. It offers an ideal compromise between weight and acoustic performance. Some manufacturers choose not to brace their cabinets, although the better ones do. However, if you build a cabinet out of 1/2-inch ply you have no choice – above a certain size, you have to brace it or it will just shake itself to bits. A properly braced cabinet made of 3/4” ply will always outperform a properly braced cabinet made of 1/2-inch ply. Not only will it be stiffer, but the 3/4-inch plywood cabinet will be less resonant because it has higher internal damping.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='621073' date='Oct 8 2009, 10:08 PM']But build time will be roughly doubled, as will the number of parts in inventory, so with the overwhelming majority of manufacturers that's not how it's done.[/quote]
Two hours to assemble a cabinet and two hours to put bracing in? You're just pulling numbers out of a hat, aren't you Bill? By that reckoning, each worker would produce two cabs a day! Bracing won’t double the parts in the inventory either, because they’re made from the same wood as the cabinet.

[Musicman20]

I know it applies more to their guitar cabinets, but the Orange cabinets are made from 13 ply high density 18mm birch plywood. I know that guitar cab wise, it has a shockingly goods effect, along with the V30s, in giving the guitar so much low end and 'heavyness' /darker tone.

Is this an example of fast labour?

Even if it is, they are so much better tone wise than every other guitar cabinet ive heard, And Ive heard a LOT.

Ive not A/B'd my Orange bass cabs as yet....but they do seem to be really thick and chunky is terms of tone, and they are made from the same wood.

Ok, it weighs a fair bit, but sometimes you just have to build it in that way to get that huge sound.

Im not talking about anything scientific, all Im talking about is the end result; tone. Tone is more important than any other factor.

[JTUK]

MM20

Orange have always used a lot of wood in their cabs and were always heavy.... it must be their thing..

I agree tone rather than volume is the most important end result. You wouldn't buy a cab on any other basis, surely..?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='622008' date='Oct 9 2009, 03:44 PM']I know it applies more to their guitar cabinets, but the Orange cabinets are made from 13 ply high density 18mm birch plywood.
Is this an example of fast labour?[/quote]
Probably. 18mm Birch does make a nice cab, and requires minimal bracing, so it's a fast and easy build, giving a good result with minimum labor costs. With adequate bracing 12mm birch can give just as good a result, with a lot less weight, albeit with higher build costs. If you price out 12mm versus 18mm you'll find not that much difference, not nearly enough for the materials savings realized using 12mm to come close to compensating for the additional labor that material demands for an equal result.

Ask any structural engineer the best way to build anything to realize maximum structural integrity, stiffness and strength to weight ratio and they'll always reply [i]with minimal material thickness and maximum surface to surface bracing[/i]. An aircraft or boat serve as good examples of lightweight high strength construction. A Centurion tank is certainly strong enough, but it will neither float nor fly.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='JTUK' post='622028' date='Oct 9 2009, 09:06 PM']I agree tone rather than volume is the most important end result. You wouldn't buy a cab on any other basis, surely..?[/quote]

Not everyone is running huge awesome cabs. So there are factors other than tone.

[JTUK]

I agree, and I don't run big cabs... both go on the back seat of my car and I can carry them with one hand

But it is pointless having a light cab if all it has going for it it is that it is loud... or light.

I have heard that complaint about too many light cabs...loud but dull as dishwater...their words, not mine.

[fenderiko]

[quote name='JTUK' post='622788' date='Oct 10 2009, 11:26 PM']I agree, and I don't run big cabs... both go on the back seat of my car and I can carry them with one hand

But it is pointless having a light cab if all it has going for it it is that it is loud... or light.

I have heard that complaint about too many light cabs...loud but dull as dishwater...their words, not mine.[/quote]

+1
....Dull as a dish washer .. - Great !!!!

Yes, unfortunately you are right , having a light but loud cab means such a bore sound with no any consideration to colors , definition and general sound.

im happy to carry abit more and have the best sound on earth .

R

[Uncle Balsamic]

[quote name='JTUK' post='622788' date='Oct 10 2009, 11:26 PM']I agree, and I don't run big cabs... both go on the back seat of my car and I can carry them with one hand

But it is pointless having a light cab if all it has going for it it is that it is loud... or light.

I have heard that complaint about too many light cabs...loud but dull as dishwater...their words, not mine.[/quote]

I've heard it about plenty of heavy cabs as well.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='623080' date='Oct 11 2009, 01:32 PM']Yes, unfortunately you are right , having a light but loud cab means such a bore sound with no any consideration to colors , definition and general sound.[/quote]

I could understand such baseless prejudice on a guitarist forum but I'd expect better on here!

For me, tone comes first. Then loudness (which is a power handling / sensitivity balance). And finally weight - to be honest the only reason I designed a lightweight cab for myself was because I couldn't see the point of a heavy cab and I enjoyed the engineering challenge - I occasionally lift heavy weights voluntarily for no reason other than exercise so I'm not scared of moving something that weighs more than some backing vocalists!

Alex

[fenderiko]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='623137' date='Oct 11 2009, 02:43 PM']I could understand such baseless prejudice on a guitarist forum but I'd expect better on here!

For me, tone comes first. Then loudness (which is a power handling / sensitivity balance). And finally weight - to be honest the only reason I designed a lightweight cab for myself was because I couldn't see the point of a heavy cab and I enjoyed the engineering challenge - I occasionally lift heavy weights voluntarily for no reason other than exercise so I'm not scared of moving something that weighs more than some backing vocalists!

Alex[/quote]

I hope you are not suggesting that guitarists are prejudice nor thick ,, none the less, the point I tried to make is that even if the bass cab is light however not sounding well then the weight is not longer a factor .

for me tone come first. then figure out if I can afford the damn thing .

R

[fenderiko]

also , Alex , you took my quote out of context as i referred to the comment above me. So if it sounded that all light cabs are dull then that is not how I meant it.
I took it for granted that tone comes first.

R

[alexclaber]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='623156' date='Oct 11 2009, 03:11 PM']I hope you are not suggesting that guitarists are prejudice...[/quote]

I'm suggesting that if it doesn't have a pre-1980 brandname most guitarists won't touch it - unless their hero endorses it. Look at all the boutique basses out there (even if lots look like Fenders) - and then look at what guitarists spend their money on. Not saying they're wrong, just somewhat blinkered.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='623156' date='Oct 11 2009, 10:11 AM']for me tone come first. then figure out if I can afford the damn thing .

R[/quote]For me tone come first too.
The point made is that weight and tone are not related. Some very heavy cabs sound really bad, some very light cabs sound very good. Having a cab that sounds good and is light as well is a win-win situation.

[fenderiko]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='623161' date='Oct 11 2009, 03:19 PM']For me tone come first too.
The point made is that weight and tone are not related. Some very heavy cabs sound really bad, some very light cabs sound very good. Having a cab that sounds good and is light as well is a win-win situation.[/quote]

+1
with you 100%