Bass finishes

[TheBlueFalcon]

I decided to change the topic of a thread that was going nowhere.

So, the new question is....

When comparing a natural wood finish to a paint finish, which is most likely to last longer? I've noticed that a lot of basses with a natural wood finish don't seem to have much of a coating over the top of them. Am I right to assume that a paint finish would last longer? I suppose it can depend on the quality of the laquer used, so just wondered in general which tends to be better.

Edited October 10, 2009 by TheBlueFalcon

[TheBlueFalcon]

Bump.... to draw attention to the new topic.

[ezbass]

The most durable finish is going to be a polyester one a la standard Fender finish (both MIM & MIM). Next is going to be a laquer finish with a natural (waxed, oiled, etc) coming in as the least durable. This is only really for dinks and scratches as a suitabley oiled or waxed finsh will the protect the wood nicely from drying out and other contaninant attack (sweat, beer, etc). I'm not sure where auto spray paint would fit if you were thinking of using that at all.

[TheBlueFalcon]

Just to add, it's the finishes on basses that are available to buy, rather than a DIY finish.

[Musicman20]

I was actually thinking this today.

Ive just sold my MIJ 62 Reissue P and the white paint on that still looks great after 14 years!

Im going to get a new American Series Precision or Jazz to have as my main live/gigging bass, and I wanted to know which would 'last' the best and age well, but mine is more about colours.

After a few PMs, it seems white is a good colour, plus it looks awesome.

Black seems to show every single tiny mark so easier...so im probably steering away from that. Plus, Im all about white or sunburst if Im honest.

Anyone want to pitch in?

Cheers

[henry norton]

'vintage' instruments are often finished in cellulose, clear and solid colours. I think Gibson still uses it on their US stuff too. The thing with polyester is when it gets used and abused it looks beaten up whereas a softer, thinner cellulose finish tends to dull and mellow with age which could be why allot of 'roadworn' instruments look 'roadworn' rather than actually worn for real. You can spray it yourself if you're careful and it's still available for vintage car restorations, although there will come a time when it's illegal

[bumnote]

[quote name='henry norton' post='622522' date='Oct 10 2009, 04:58 PM']'vintage' instruments are often finished in cellulose, clear and solid colours. I think Gibson still uses it on their US stuff too. The thing with polyester is when it gets used and abused it looks beaten up whereas a softer, thinner cellulose finish tends to dull and mellow with age which could be why allot of 'roadworn' instruments look 'roadworn' rather than actually worn for real. You can spray it yourself if you're careful and it's still available for vintage car restorations, although there will come a time when it's illegal [/quote]

There are a number of sites on the web who say that fender changed from cellulose to acrylic paint in the very early 60s at the same time as auto manufacturers did. Apparently because acrylics were easier to use and repair.

The final coat of clear sealer was cellulose, and that is what yellows with age.

I have no real expertise in this its only what Ive read

[BassBod]

Slightly aside, I've always understood that Fender used what the auto makers used, acrylic or nitro, depending on the colour. Companies like Dupont were far too big to worry about what Fender wanted. But the clear coat is usually nitro up to the early 70's and that's what ages..or mellows or whatever you want to call it.

Most durable seems to be polyester - look at current Alembics for how good that can look over natural wood (when new) but chips and dings look bad and are tricky to repair without a lot of work.

Natural oils/wax are the softest, but also the easiest to maintain and repair for minor damage. My favourite, but you do have to re-wax every few weeks to maintain the protection, and possibly cut back/sand out minor damage every few years. It really depends how the instrument gets treated.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Whilst I can't speak (particularly) for Poly vs. Nitro vs. Oiled, it seems to me that your choice of finish should be dictated by;

1) What looks attractive to you now
2) The way in which the finish will "mature" over time, and whether this will be desirable in your eyes.
3) If it affects the tone (a moot point!) or the playability of the finished instrument (this applies more to necks, though)

There's a lot you can do to protect your bass.
I never play with rings or watches on
I never play wearing a belt (or braces!)
I wear trousers without rivets OR a jumper/T shirt long enough to cover the rivets on my jeans...
I clean my basses and hang them up or put them away after use.
At gigs, I'll leave the bass in the case until the last minute, get it out, tune it up, play, and back in a case it goes.

Excessive?
Not particularly. As an analogy, how many of you try not to damage your car's finish when unlocking/using it. You (probably) wouldn't let your car get buckle rash!

My greatest issue arises from hardware corrosion from my sweaty mitts...

[Davo-London]

Of these the most important is how the finish affects the tone.

There seems to be some growing agreement that natural finish or oiled finish is best for tone. Some reckon that old Fenders sound so good because these have lost their thin nitro coating, which has allowed the wood to breathe and dry out even more. Some "hidden under the bed" 60's Fenders sound new because the wood hasn't been able to continue to age.

If you go to Nash Guitars website and read all about this. Hopefully you will add this to your considerations. And as an aside, i would not sell an 80's or 90's CIJ because you are unlikely to improve upon their tone with a new MIA Fender. Just MHO of course. But check out the difference.

Peace
Davo

[Kiwi]

Technically you can pile on layer after layer of polyeurathane and have a very very tough finish. Pedulla use the same finish on their buzz bass fingerboards as they do on the rest of the instrument only its substantially thicker. However there's a downside with thick finishes in that they tend to choke the instrument a bit meaning less warmth. Of course this is just one variable in a myriad for any instrument.

I remember being very impressed with how durable my Warwick Rockbass was from knocks but it wasn't a warm instrument (not helped by the pine body probably either).

Alternatively there are indeed oil finishes and these have the advantage of being sandable in the event of light indentations. But if they're protecting a soft wood then expect even the lightest taps to leave a mark. I had this happen with my fretted Smith BSR5GN. Even fingernails would leave a mark.

IMO the best finish is probably a satin finished, thin poly finish because you can get it resprayed and flatted back to match the rest of the instrument a hell of a lot more easily than if it was gloss finished because there's less sanding involved. Plus its durable enough to take light knocks without too much trouble.

EDIT: Technically a pre-relicked instrument could be more durable in taking all the knocks you could throw at it and it would probably look better.

[warwickhunt]

Hard lacquer/paints may well protect your instrument from stains and sweat etc but when it takes a knock it still dints just the same as a waxed finish but the difference is the waxed finish can easily be remedied at home by the average owner. Lacquered/painted finishes start to chip and flake and this can look very tasty (relic'd) but it still looks 'damaged'. I've owned Warwick waxed basses for 20+ years and most have withstood knocks as well as any poly finished bass... adding the caveat that some of the present woods used are a lot softer than the well seasoned woods used in the past!

[mrcrow]

paint will discolour and scratch
natural wood will...age and gain character

dings are easier to deal with

ps i dont have a wooden car..or is that heart...sorry elvis

[bumnote]

[quote name='Davo-London' post='622776' date='Oct 10 2009, 11:12 PM']Of these the most important is how the finish affects the tone.

There seems to be some growing agreement that natural finish or oiled finish is best for tone. Some reckon that old Fenders sound so good because these have lost their thin nitro coating, which has allowed the wood to breathe and dry out even more. Some "hidden under the bed" 60's Fenders sound new because the wood hasn't been able to continue to age.


Peace
Davo[/quote]

Taken from [url="http://www.caraguitars.com/fullerplast.asp"]http://www.caraguitars.com/fullerplast.asp[/url]

All Fender Guitars made since 1963 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tome. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factor with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. A suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured Resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.


The two-part catalyzed coating named "Fullerplast" (Fuller for Fuller O'Brien, the products creator, and plast for the obvious PLASTIC"), solved all of Fenders finishing problems; encasing the deep wood pores in a self-hardening plastic that wrapped the body in a rock-hard solid coffin. In some cases we have found it to be as thick as a.060 string. Yes, all of the wood moisture and characteristics are sealed in a virtual time-capsule, only to be vented from the body through screw holes and paint fractures. Share this info and be the hit of your next guitar gathering!


Fender rarely mentions Fullerplast, or the way it prepares its bodies before applying Lacquer. If they mention it at all
So, when someone tells you that a Fender "nitro-cellulose" or "nitro" finished guitar will sound better, have more warmth, or will dry out... they really don't have the full story.

Ask any seasoned guitar craftsman what happens when you will apply paint stripper to a Fender "nitro" finish.

The nitro color comes off within minutes, leaving the guitar with a rock-hard plastic coating that can not be removed with any chemical means. Sandpaper barely scratches this coating, but will remove it with mechanical help. Heat Guns will remove the coating, but not by softening it. Apply heat to the Fullerplast coating and it will remain solid until about 300F, at which time it will crack, and pop off of the guitar.

WIN A BET,
BUT GET A PUNCH

The next time someone brags about how good their "lacquer" Fender guitar sounds, because it breathes, try this.

Take a cotton swab dipped nail polish remover, and take a wipe at an inconspicuous area on the guitar. Either
1) The finish will remain un-touched, or
2) You will wipe away the color coat, and see the rock-hard, insoluble Fullerplast. (sunburst guitar photo on left)

If all the finish comes off and you get to bare wood, the Fender guitar has been stripped and refinished.

Either way, you get to say you know something, before you hit the floor.

It's a fact, , its scientific, and it's the skeleton in Fenders closet, that they never want to be seen. They have kept it locked away like a bastard child, allowing players, collectors, and experts to spread the "nitro" legend as the holy-grail of tone!

When did Fender start the plastic coating process, and why?

Most experts agree that Fullerplast was started to be used by Fender in 1963
There are many experts that are willing to share the facts with the guitar community, just as I am.

The most time consuming part of finishing a solid guitar body, is the process of filling the wood pores, and allowing the paint to lay flay, with a gloss found on Grand Pianos, or automobiles. Fender needed a fast and easy solution in order speed up production during the guitar craze of the early 1960s. Encasing the wood in a smooth, hard, "glass" jacket would eliminate up to 20 hours in each body prep. Fender even experimented with a hot dip that resembled a candy apple method. The problem was that the dip mixture would need to be at a temperature that would damage the wood, or cause body moisture to create "steam pops" in the coating


When Fender switched to Alder (from Ash) as it's primary body wood in mid 1956, many books and authorities state Fender started using the product called "Fullerplast" This is a very misunderstood product. For example, there is a picture in Tom Wheeler's American Guitars, page 54 (upper left corner), of a man with long rubber gloves dipping bodies into a tank at Fender in the late 1950's. The description incorrectly denotes the man is applying Fullerplast to the bodies. Most likely, this man is staining the Alder bodies yellow, a process used on Alder from 1956 and later before spraying the sunburst finish. (2) Thanks to VintageGuitarHQ


Fullerplast is a clear, sprayed chemically curing sealer, unaffected by solvents after it dries. It's invention is often given credit to Fuller O'Brien (but often though to be named after the city of Fullerton, the home of Fender) Whether either is the case, it is now manufactured and distributed by VanDee,

Fullerplast soaks into the wood and creates a seal that prevents following coats from soaking into the wood like a sponge. This means spraying the color coats is easier and the coats can be applied thinner (saving material, money and dry time). Even though alder is a "closed pore" wood, the first few coats of lacquer will soak in like a sponge without some type of sealer coat. Fullerplast dries in 15 minutes, and is paintable in one hour. It is also applied very thin.
Most experts agree the actual product Fullerplast actually started to be used around 1963 at Fender. Prior to that, Fender used other products as their sealer coat, but they did the same thing. The sealer allowed any color coat (be it sunburst or a custom color) to not soak into the wood. Since the sealer is essentially a clear inexpensive primer, less color would be needed (and color costs a lot more money than a cheap sealer).

[Lfalex v1.1]

Excellent, informative post!
Maybe they should do the necks, too to improve their tolerance to humidity changes!