Sell your rig and get in ears?

[SteveO]

What about the rest of the band? they will need to hear you aswell, there is the PA monitors for this of course, but then again you can use them too if they're up to the job. I'm not knocking in-ears BTW, I use them when playing the Brass, I may even use them as well as the rig, but not instead of it.

[ped]

I use them in the same was as shown in S.P's awesome diagram. I usually have my rig at the same time. My signal goes like this:

Bass > Vbass > Stereo Poweramp > SWR 4x8 (right channel) and 1x15 (left channel) cabs
_____________________________> IEM Shure E2c with foam tips
_____________________________> FOH (whatever the venue provides)

So the Vbass splits the signal into each destination. Sometimes if the gig is decent then I won't bother with my rig as the monitors are up to scratch. I got tired of doing gigs where I was the only one who could hear my amplifier and even I was having trouble in some venues. IEMs rule! I also really like the semi studio feeling of having a CD volume band to play along to. Having only me in my IEM mix also eliminates the risk of dangerous frequencies and so on.

I also love the fact that for me, E2cs produce exactly the sound my bass makes to desk and through my amp, so I know what I am hearing is the uncoloured 'truth'. It makes everything much easier when you have the same sound everywhere.

ped

[Stan_da_man]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='624813' date='Oct 13 2009, 11:21 AM']

S.P.[/quote]
How can you hear the rest of the band with just bass going through your ear?! You'd have to have the bass turned down very low then.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Stan_da_man' post='627560' date='Oct 16 2009, 08:49 AM']How can you hear the rest of the band with just bass going through your ear?! You'd have to have the bass turned down very low then.[/quote]

Sorry, I should have described what's going on here. The "earplug" factor of the IEM system reduces the volume of the ambient noise (red waveform) down to a comfortable level. The IEM then plays your bass (green waveform) and you set the volume to the desired level, relative to the red waveform.

S.P.

[Kaiu]

Hey,

I gig with in ears and an SVT 2 pro + 8x10. If the amp is part of your sound then keep it. I get some of the bass mic put through my ears.
I also like being able to feel the bass, as do the other band members.
The guitarists try and mic their cabs off stage, or just turn them round if there isn't enough room, but everybody prefers having a live bass cab on stage.

I have toured with just a sansamp and in ears. It's perfectly do-able, and surprisingly clear. However personally I lose the 'vibe' and don't actually enjoy the gig as much.

A couple of things to watch out for:

1. If you're not doing your own monitor mixes, and there are no wedges on stage then make sure someone competent is doing your in ear mixes. A bad in ear mix in my opinion, is a million times worse than a bad wedge mix. At least with a bad wedge mix you can pick up other peoples mixes and FOH.
I've pulled my in ears out several times at festivals simply because we haven't had time to soundcheck and get a decent in ear mix. Using my bass cab and standing next to the drum kit was a lot better than what was coming through my ears!

2. If you are solely using in ears. Make sure you use decent head phones that block out a decent amount of sound. The more isolating your headphones are the clearer your mix will be and quieter you can have them. Thus saving your hearing. However I have known people to only put their bass sound through their ears, so they need to hear the onstage sound in order to hear the other instruments, so it's up to you! In the long run both options will help your hearing.

Ed

Edited October 16, 2009 by Kaiu

[mcgraham]

Well, i'm playing (acoustic) guitar tomorrow at church, so I'll try the monitoring solution with actual canal-phones (20 quid Sony jobs) rather than earbuds, and a monitor mix coming through to combat the ambience issue. I'll report back after that.

When playing in a worship team, an overall mix of the band and ambience is vital. Worship sets are not 'jam' sessions by any means, but there is a lot more spur-of-the-moment variation and changes depending on where the leader feels things are going - very dynamic, but it means you need to be able to hear what's going on clearly and adjust your playing accordingly and with taste.

Mark

[Owen]

IEMs are cool. You could use a desk and mix your own signal and a monitor feed from the FOH guys. Cheap as chips. If you can get the whole band to IEM then the FOH mix will be so much cleaner and crisper. We did that when our church met in a super reverberant school hall. It cleaned things up nicely.

I would not be selling your back line anytime soon though. Not everyone has a PA which can plumb the depths.

[Doddy]

I use in-ears on any gig where everything goes through the PA,or when I'm
singing.
I try to have a good mix of everything in my monitors,and then have my Bass and vocals
slightly louder than everything else.
I still have to have an amp though because a- I like the sound and feel of my rig mid'ed
and b- not every band or gig has or requires personal monitoring.

[synaesthesia]

I use in ears when ever I can, I much prefer to do so whatever the size of the gig. When I worked with a particular drummer on a tour of live gigs, I brought my rack unit which allowed about 6 musos to use wired or wireless in ears. He concurs that we play much tighter with in ears.

The problem I have found in reality is to convince guitarists to use them, keyboardists, drummers and singers - no problem, but guitarists struggle with this - their tone is largely out of their amp/cab and you need to mic it, unless you have a guitarist who uses some some modelling unit. Mic it one way and it sounds good and another way it doesn't - with guitarists and in ears it's a bit of a compromise.

Edited October 17, 2009 by synaesthesia

[mcgraham]

Well, used my good 'phones again yesterday. I was still enthralled by being able to hear myself so clearly, but I was quite disgusted with the poor sound. So new higher SQ in-ear monitors are on order to improve the situation.

[jim_bass]

I don't use in ears myself for bass, but we have recently started using in ears for our drummer. We play an electronic kit and it goes

Drumkit --> DI out 1 --> Desk
DI out 2 --> Headphone Amp

and

Desk Aux -> Headphone Amp

The headphone amp has 2 channels (cheapo behringer one - but does the job) so he can mix himself into the aux mix coming from the desk. He likes this as generally he want to be louder in-ear than the rest of us want to hear

However, I have recently been advised that feedback could be a big problem if it goes into the in-ear mix (deafen the guy!), os I am now looking at getting a compressor/limiter for the aux line to avoid this problem.

It will then go:

Drumkit --> DI out 1 --> Desk
DI out 2 --> Headphone Amp

and

Desk Aux -> Compressor/Limiter -->Headphone Amp

This is a wired mix, not wireless. Hope it is of some help.

Edited October 26, 2009 by jim_bass

[mcgraham]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm bassing this Sunday so will be trying out my in-ears properly. Going to try and get in touch with the PA team in advance to secure a spare desk monitor feed for myself.

For those who're interested I purchased the Jays q-Jays - tiny dual balanced armature driver headphones. Amazingly clear and shows how normal headphones mask a good deal of the midrange to achieve a more 'pleasing' contemporary sound. I'm still testing out the in-ears, but so far they have impressed me.

Mark

[crez5150]

I've just tested out the new IE-8 from Sennheiser on a few gigs...... gotta say I'm mightily impressed by these units..... They have the added body that a lot of others seem to be missing.... they also work extremely well out of the box (i.e. no moulds necessary ) which is great.

[mcgraham]

I was looking at the Sennheiser IE6-8 range, but I ruled them out (for now) due to size, price, my general inexperience, and a few reviews that said they were better for personal listening than personal monitoring.

The q-Jays are universal silicone ear tip type, and they fit wonderfully.

Mark

[Bottle]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='627707' date='Oct 16 2009, 10:39 AM']When playing in a worship team, an overall mix of the band and ambience is vital. Worship sets are not 'jam' sessions by any means, but there is a lot more spur-of-the-moment variation and changes depending on where the leader feels things are going - very dynamic, but it means you need to be able to hear what's going on clearly and adjust your playing accordingly and with taste.[/quote]
+1
I play regularly with a worship team in Cambridge - in fact I'm on for the next two Sundays. I usually don't bother with an IEM mix, but may change this week. We normally run 4 separate IEM mixes from the FoH desk plus a wedge mix (the venue is too small to justify having a split FoH/Monitor mix setup). The setup usually goes like this: IEM mix #1 for the worship leader (usually keys or acoustic gtr) plus wedge mix (drummer gets the same mix). IEM #2 for the BV, IEM #3 for alt keys/brass/woodwind/2nd acoustic, IEM #4 for bass/electric guitar.

I've found over the last couple of months that the drummer's volume and dynamics have been increasing, so find it more difficult to dial in a volume level on my amp that doesn't drown out everyone else. Due to the amount of time we have to set up in the morning, we don't tend to bother with a drum shield (we don't mic the drum kit). Inevitably, the on-stage volume keeps creeping up. I'm thinking about now using IEMs for isolation as well as a monitor mix. Downside is that I just don't get on with the in-ear buds - they irritate my ear canal. Thinking about using my closed-back headphones instead.

Anyway, thought I'd just add my thoughts to the mix

HTH, Ian

[Owen]

We have closed back headphones for bassist and drummer at church. Some use them, some dont (I sit on the sub

[quote name='Bottle' post='639873' date='Oct 29 2009, 11:22 AM']+1
I play regularly with a worship team in Cambridge - in fact I'm on for the next two Sundays. I usually don't bother with an IEM mix, but may change this week. We normally run 4 separate IEM mixes from the FoH desk plus a wedge mix (the venue is too small to justify having a split FoH/Monitor mix setup). The setup usually goes like this: IEM mix #1 for the worship leader (usually keys or acoustic gtr) plus wedge mix (drummer gets the same mix). IEM #2 for the BV, IEM #3 for alt keys/brass/woodwind/2nd acoustic, IEM #4 for bass/electric guitar.

I've found over the last couple of months that the drummer's volume and dynamics have been increasing, so find it more difficult to dial in a volume level on my amp that doesn't drown out everyone else. Due to the amount of time we have to set up in the morning, we don't tend to bother with a drum shield (we don't mic the drum kit). Inevitably, the on-stage volume keeps creeping up. I'm thinking about now using IEMs for isolation as well as a monitor mix. Downside is that I just don't get on with the in-ear buds - they irritate my ear canal. Thinking about using my closed-back headphones instead.

Anyway, thought I'd just add my thoughts to the mix

HTH, Ian[/quote]

[mcgraham]

Bottle, thanks for sharing, always interesting to hear how other worship bassists deal with such things

I was considering closed back headphones as your money goes further sound quality wise for headphones rather than earbuds. However I love earbuds and prefer the discrete look. I may buy a set anyway for personal listening but that's another matter.

Unfortunately, the sound team skill level is quite inexperienced and, for a number of reasons, they are generally unwilling to try new things. As such, all the stuff I've been trying I've been having to do totally by myself, but I've primarily been doing to address the PA team's complaints about bass amplification/monitoring. Yes, this is frustrating for me, but I'm hoping we can start to try new stuff soon.

Mark

[Bottle]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='639944' date='Oct 29 2009, 12:21 PM']Bottle, thanks for sharing, always interesting to hear how other worship bassists deal with such things

I was considering closed back headphones as your money goes further sound quality wise for headphones rather than earbuds. However I love earbuds and prefer the discrete look. I may buy a set anyway for personal listening but that's another matter.[/quote]
If this weekend goes well, may consider it. We have more than one drummer, and I'm the second of two bassists, so the rota changes each week (as does the monitor mix and the EQ!)

[quote]Unfortunately, the sound team skill level is quite inexperienced and, for a number of reasons, they are generally unwilling to try new things. As such, all the stuff I've been trying I've been having to do totally by myself, but I've primarily been doing to address the PA team's complaints about bass amplification/monitoring. Yes, this is frustrating for me, but I'm hoping we can start to try new stuff soon.[/quote]
I've got my foot in both camps - I double up on the PA side of things when required (actually I've been doing the PA longer than I've been playing bass). We have three guys including myself who are experienced enough to set up from scratch, plus another three or four people who can drive the desk competently. Now I have the SansAmp DI box I can go straight into the desk - previously used the DI out from the GK. Still have to make two trips from the car to get everything in (thinking 'lightweight cabs' next )

All our gear is set up and struck down for each service, because we rent the venue (they do allow us a cupboard for storage), which means a rapid turn-around, so IEMs help get everyone a monitor mix quickly. At the end of the day we're there to worship and to serve the worship leader, so the PA should be transparent and as unobtrusive as possible (not that it always works out that way!). The venue acoustic is good, but still presents challenges as I've outlined in the previous post - drum-kit is top of the list. But the acoustic kit beats the Roland V-Drums set we used before hands down!

Don't get me started on the PA multi-core snake (we're in the market for a new one - the current one is on it's way out )

Anyway, it's been great to get another perspective on Sunday morning worship

Take care
Ian

[mcgraham]

Do let me/us know how you get on with using IEM. I'm definitely sold on at least the personal monitoring side - if I can get it to work with the PA team then even better!

Incidentally, I used to sound and light at school and also at previous churches, and I'd love to do PA here, but every church I've been in have found more use for me on bass or guitar.

You're right in that we're ultimately there to serve the congregation and worship time by following the worship leader; everything else is peripheral. With regards to the worship team/band and sound team relationship, I find that it is (objectively speaking) an interesting dynamic: the musicians are there to play, the PA team are there to sort the sound of the team - without the musicians the PA guys have nothing to do, without the PA team the musicians will not be able to play. As such, you just need to do your job and trust your PA team to do theirs. Its just unfortunate that the PA team at present is quite unco-operative to do things out of the norm.

Mark

[Bottle]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='640132' date='Oct 29 2009, 03:30 PM']Do let me/us know how you get on with using IEM. I'm definitely sold on at least the personal monitoring side - if I can get it to work with the PA team then even better![/quote]
Will do

[quote]Incidentally, I used to sound and light at school and also at previous churches, and I'd love to do PA here, but every church I've been in have found more use for me on bass or guitar.

You're right in that we're ultimately there to serve the congregation and worship time by following the worship leader; everything else is peripheral. With regards to the worship team/band and sound team relationship, I find that it is (objectively speaking) an interesting dynamic: the musicians are there to play, the PA team are there to sort the sound of the team - without the musicians the PA guys have nothing to do, without the PA team the musicians will not be able to play. As such, you just need to do your job and trust your PA team to do theirs. Its just unfortunate that the PA team at present is quite unco-operative to do things out of the norm.

Mark[/quote]
We've had our ups-and-downs, as does every other group I've worked with, but we've made a lot of progress, and we're much more 'together' - most of the PA team also serve on the worship team, so there's less 'them 'n' us' to it now. We all have the same heart, just different ways of achieving it and we all trust each other implicitly.

I think making the PA team feel like they're included goes a long way - when I started going to my present church it was quite an adjustment to what I'd experienced before, and it was sometime before I felt I was accepted by the worship team, even working alongside them for almost a year. But I got inspired to pick up the bass again after a hiatus, and I think that went a long way to breaking the ice.

Have a good one, and I'll let you know how it works out with the IEMs

Ian

[mcgraham]

Incidentally, a guy at work who has custom molded in ears (ACS T2 - costs £500) for personal listening (bit of an audiophile) has said that whilst they sound very good, they don't sound 25 times better than decent 20 quid universal fit in-ear earphones. Of course, sound is so very very subjective, but this is nevertheless an interesting comment from someone who is very picky and not afraid to voice his opinion if he doesn't like something. Due to ongoing issues with their build quality, he's looking to get his money back and get some good universal fits together with some custom molded sleeves.

Definitely makes me glad I started down the universal fit route, at least for the time being.

Mark

[mcgraham]

Well, I managed to use them in worship this morning with a full band. Took a line out from an existing monitor mix and combined it with my own bass mix to my headphones. They were absolutely fantastic. Could hear absolutely everything and all at minimal volume. I felt like the worship leader/singers were right beside me, and the guitars sounded very crisp and clean. Whilst the drum kit wasn't mic'd (other than kick), the headphones kept the volume to a comfortable level and smoothed out the painful piercing snare hits.

Downside is that, due to the excellent noise isolation, I basically had to lip read any verbal instructions when the band was playing, even at a quiet level (although you'll appreciate if the band is actually playing and singing, then they can't/won't be giving verbal instructions off-mic at the same time).

In summary, really really impressed, and I will continue to use this in the future.

Mark

[Bottle]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='640132' date='Oct 29 2009, 03:30 PM']Do let me/us know how you get on with using IEM. I'm definitely sold on at least the personal monitoring side - if I can get it to work with the PA team then even better![/quote]
Just thought I'd add some comments regarding the IEMs, now that I've had a couple of weeks using them.

Firstly, you've got to have a great working relationship with your PA guy - he can make all the difference between hearing (and playing) well, and a complete dog's dinner - luckily we have some super guys.

OK, first weekend I used IEMs properly was last Sunday (1st Nov) - TBH wasn't feeling my best, and had a real difficult soundcheck, but IEMs worked fine. Need some better noise-isolation in-ear buds, 'cos I was standing right next to the drummer (right-handed, floor tom side). Had to keep pushing my cab volume up, which is a problem for the on-stage level.

Monday & Tuesday (2nd & 3rd) our worship band were invited to lead worship at the Partners in Harvest conference in Hemel Hempstead (HHCC) - got to play a slot on Tuesday to give our regular bassist a break - used hard-wired IEMs, much better isolation as our drummer (bless her!) was behind a drum screen.

Played yesterday morning (8th) - different PA engineer, but he got the FoH & monitor mix pretty good - everybody was up and dancing, and I could really get into the worship - helped to feed off each other. Drummer and I locked in much better, really enjoyed playing. So, I think having a good mix can make [i]all[/i] the difference!

Well, I've got a break from playing for the next few weeks - we're encouraging other musicians at the moment, plus we've got a a new worship CD in the works - due to be released in December, so I'm going to be putting on my PA hat for a while.

Anyway, hope this helps

Ian

[BassTool]

Just to add my slant on what's been said ; I have used IEM's for nearly two years now and I am absolutely hooked . Our drummer does the sound for our band and got us all converted. He has used two IEM's for years and has a totally confined mix of his own, whereas the other three of us use only one IEM and monitor the live sound of the band with the other ear.

I go from my bass(es) through a DI box straight into our Yamaha O1V desk. As I am the main singer, I have my vocal [i]and[/i] bass in my ear, and the other members vocals set back in my own mix - we do up to four part harmony so it's important we can all hear each other. I pick up the kit and two guitars ambiently with my free ear, and the rest of the band get my bass and vox through their own IEM at a level they want. And without the need for other monitors we always have lots of space on stage.

It works brilliantly, the sound I hear is perfect and the overall volume is adjustable by me. Admittedly it takes a bit of getting used to, not having the thump behind you from an amp but no longer having an amp to lug around any more is more than worth it..

I can hear the purists wailing but when you're getting close to fifty, it doesn't half make a difference every weekend

I can thoroughly recommend anyone who may be wavering to give the IEM route a try - I know it won't suit everyone, but I think it may well be the future for a lot of us

So, technically speaking, if anyone asks what gear I use, my rig is our JBL VRX line array PA system!

[urb]

I love the idea of IEMs and I have actually been plugging my bass directly into the PA at rehearsals as the Sei just rocks on its own minus an amp - it sounds great direct - my only caveat with IEMs is that unless you are always in a high-production setting where monitoring is used and there's lots of vocals and keys etc - then using IEMs for a jazz gig would seem a bit excessive to me - agreed on a big stage or comlex live set up IEMs are the way to go - our vocalists have a problem pitching when the monitoring sucks - they used IEMs at the last rehearsal and I can honestly say they sounded so sweetly in tune and so much more relaxed because they could hear themselves - I could see how good they can work.

Lastly I happen to like the way my bass sounds thorugh my amp - so I love hearing it that way - but the benefits of IEMs are huge for sure.

M